Time to start Cheating

First topic message reminder :

So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

Well that's a sweeping statement. I don't care if we win or lose the standard of Scottish and Italian refs is terrible and not befitting of the league, especially when Welsh regions play in Ireland.

I love this holier than thou attitude if your side loses. Often when your team is beaten, it´s easier to look for reasons outside of the game. To be fair, it´s an easy attitude to adopt. I remember the white orcs on steroids era and Neil Back was a cheating lover of mothers as were his other minions. Of course when you lose, you forget all the rules you bent.

How many teams reach the end of the match with no penalties against their name? The fact that never suggests players from both sides, like children, are always testing the limits of the laws. Try telling Biltong Pocock is a saint. But that´s the job of the good seven. He contests ball and tries to get ball for his team. Sometimes he´ll be pinged. To say the ref is in the pocket of the team who beats you is the last final reserve in favour of the vanquished. And yes, I´m fully aware of the gold watch scandal in 95 and he who shall not be named in 2007. All sides of guilty of tarring the victors with the cheating brush.

I don´t expect everyone to bow down to the conquered. Part of me actually respects the posters who have obvious dislike for certain teams or players who often beat them. It shows a burning desire to beat those feckers once and for all. Fair enough. But the OP title Time to start cheating clearly implies his team hasn´t started bending the rules yet. That is completely absurd. Those who live in glass houses shouldn´t throw stones.

How very dare you introduce logic Sir

Bringing in logic is out of the question, next you will be saying the world is round.....

Don´t worry Thomond. I can confirm it´s oval. That´s why rugby is the perfect game. A perfect symmetry of the world in which we live.

viewtothegym wrote:I hate refs and i hate Irish teams, this has been a subject for years on how the Irish teams get home town refs, i wouldn't say English teams do it half as much as they used to.

Surely a home town ref would side with the Scarlets though?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: Those who live in glass houses shouldn´t throw stones.

There are no glass houses in Wales .

Glas - ye can't blame refs for being the victims of insidious IRB genetic tinkering!

Through a process of unnatural selection, the IRB (the "I" secretly stands for Ireland BTW) identified and genetically engineered modern referees to be inherently anti-welsh (and pro-Irish). The programme began in the late sixties when the IRB identified Welsh rugby to be on an inexorable path to world domination and knew they couldn't stick the gloating if Wales ever won the RWC, so they had to stop the march of the killer leeks.

Of course with the unbridled success of the programme they extended it to contain other nations such as New Zealand and have processed operatives through their high security 'facility' in Dublin such as Wayne Barnes.

So instead of castigation a bit of sympathy is called for, especially for the Welsh referees who are in a state of total confusion. Occasionally the flashbacks make them feel a totally different man, just ask Nigel Owens.

Interesting to hear the Nigel Davies after match press conference on the scarlets site.

I posted this thread before it became available. But he seems to offer the same sort of opinion...."If you can't beat them...join them" etc

He must be totally frustrated asking his players to "watch the discipline" all week in the build up to the game as it will be very close. Then to see what is being allowed at the breakdown must give him rage. He basically has to say to his players after 20 minutes - "Forget everything that I said all week, try and cheat your arses off"

Chunky Norwich wrote:Interesting to hear the Nigel Davies after match press conference on the scarlets site.

I posted this thread before it became available. But he seems to offer the same sort of opinion...."If you can't beat them...join them" etc

He must be totally frustrated asking his players to "watch the discipline" all week in the build up to the game as it will be very close. Then to see what is being allowed at the breakdown must give him rage. He basically has to say to his players after 20 minutes - "Forget everything that I said all week, try and cheat your arses off"

A real saint...

I'll just say that every team that wins a game 'because of the referee', firstly has to be able to win a game 'in spite of the referee'!

No, no, no, nobody wins because of a Referee, you only lose because of a referee. Saying Munster only win because of the ref is actually quite disrespectful and not what we are on about at all.

That is kind of what you're saying...

Chunky Norwich wrote:Interesting to hear the Nigel Davies after match press conference on the scarlets site.

I posted this thread before it became available. But he seems to offer the same sort of opinion...."If you can't beat them...join them" etc

He must be totally frustrated asking his players to "watch the discipline" all week in the build up to the game as it will be very close. Then to see what is being allowed at the breakdown must give him rage. He basically has to say to his players after 20 minutes - "Forget everything that I said all week, try and cheat your arses off"

And you don't think that the Munster, Leinster and Leicester coaches are also saying "watch the discipline" all week in the build up to the game.

Because give away penelties and the other team will keep nailing points over.

Or do you think they say "try and cheat your arses off? don't worry about pens Priestland can't kick for toffee?"

I think he really believes they´re saying:"Win but win at all costs. I don´t care how you win but do anything and everything to make sure they don´t beat us." That is the only explanation for this post...

Kingshu wrote:

And you don't think that the Munster, Leinster and Leicester coaches are also saying "watch the discipline" all week in the build up to the game.

Because give away penelties and the other team will keep nailing points over.

Or do you think they say "try and cheat your arses off? don't worry about pens Priestland can't kick for toffee?"

Listen to the video on the Scarlets site. You'll probably be able to answer those questions better than I can then.

Kia in your litany of errors or alleged errors by refs you forgot to mention 2011 as well for the final. Just thought it would be better to have the complete list.

How long are Welsh posters going to continue to make ridiculous accusations to cover for the fact that their teams have been just making up the numbers in the HC. It is almost childlike in its introduction and defence. I can see how you must be frustrated at your teams inconsistencies, but accusing a team(and country) of persistent cheating in explanation for your own teams shortcomings, shows a shrill desperation on your part. It's getting to the stage where no Welsh team can lose without there being some sort of skulduggery on the part of the other team.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you come out with claptrap like this?

Did you ever hear the story of 'Cry Wolf'

DOD, yes that persistent French offside really made it difficult for us. Thanks for reminding me.

Unfortunately I am quite late to this conversation or debate, however you want to put it.

The fact is rugby is becoming more and more a game of chess than a game of skill and brutal physical ability.

Not only clubs but international teams who play "SMART" to the referee are at an advantage.

The professional era has brought with it a new era of how rugby is played. It is no longer about dominating a scrum, it is about finding ways to use the technical issues to your team's often weaker forward pack.

It is no longer about having a good physical specimen doing legal fetching, it is about having an intelligent pilferer and bender of law interpretations.

It is no longer about using your back line to create an overlap, it is using your backline on the edge of obstuctive running to create holes for angled runners.

That is the state of the game.

Sad, but true.

Something south Africans lack and I would class Wales under that same umbrella, the game is no longer what you see and play.

It is about what the referee doesn't see and you get away with.

Thomond wrote:That is kind of what you're saying...

I think we are at the knub of this. I now understand why what we think is perfectly legitimate upsets you so much.

Perhaps with this understanding, I won't say it so much and you won't get so upset if I do?

It doesn't upset me I just don't get how people can think a ref causes people to lose a match the only possible scenario would be two tries were awarded that shouldn't have been and your team loses by more than ten.

OK, it's a cultural thing, I can't do better than that sorry.

mankiaow wrote:How long are Welsh posters going to continue to make ridiculous accusations to cover for the fact that their teams have been just making up the numbers in the HC. It is almost childlike in its introduction and defence. I can see how you must be frustrated at your teams inconsistencies, but accusing a team(and country) of persistent cheating in explanation for your own teams shortcomings, shows a shrill desperation on your part. It's getting to the stage where no Welsh team can lose without there being some sort of skulduggery on the part of the other team.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you come out with claptrap like this?

Did you ever hear the story of 'Cry Wolf'

Making up the numbers ? That would be the Jeff teams at the moment. Blues should top their group and the Scarlets and Ospreys are stilll very much in it.

biltongbek wrote:Unfortunately I am quite late to this conversation or debate, however you want to put it.

The fact is rugby is becoming more and more a game of chess than a game of skill and brutal physical ability.

Not only clubs but international teams who play "SMART" to the referee are at an advantage.

The professional era has brought with it a new era of how rugby is played. It is no longer about dominating a scrum, it is about finding ways to use the technical issues to your team's often weaker forward pack.

It is no longer about having a good physical specimen doing legal fetching, it is about having an intelligent pilferer and bender of law interpretations.

It is no longer about using your back line to create an overlap, it is using your backline on the edge of obstuctive running to create holes for angled runners.

That is the state of the game.

Sad, but true.

Something south Africans lack and I would class Wales under that same umbrella, the game is no longer what you see and play.

It is about what the referee doesn't see and you get away with.

Both SA and Wales do have that smart sort of player though, who will cause a lot of trouble at the breakdown (Brussouw and Warburton respectively). It is something every team does, however some adapt to the ref better than others. That still doesn't mean it is the fault of the ref, or whoever cheats the best or whatever. Being able to manipulate a game to suit your team, is a skill in itself. It is something EVERY team is guilty of doing (and rightly so), and I don't think Wales/SA can claim they aren't included in that.

Thomond wrote:I just don't get how people can think a ref causes people to lose a match .

You didn't catch Ulster v Scarlets last season then?

mankiaow wrote:How long are Welsh posters going to continue to make ridiculous accusations to cover for the fact that their teams have been just making up the numbers in the HC. It is almost childlike in its introduction and defence. I can see how you must be frustrated at your teams inconsistencies, but accusing a team(and country) of persistent cheating in explanation for your own teams shortcomings, shows a shrill desperation on your part. It's getting to the stage where no Welsh team can lose without there being some sort of skulduggery on the part of the other team.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you come out with claptrap like this?

Did you ever hear the story of 'Cry Wolf'

Read the thread. Munster deserved to win. I have said this about 11 times now.

If the ref blows his whistle once in a game, he starts a series of circumstances that leads to one side losing.

But yes, the Ulster/Scarlets game was a.... a... I don't know what it was but it should have been replayed, whatever it was.

Sorry! Misread the title. Thought it said 'Time to start Bleating'

Oh hang on, I was right first time.

Bleating about cheating refs, the only reason Welsh ever lose!

Vaden wrote:Sorry! Misread the title. Thought it said 'Time to start Bleating'

Oh hang on, I was right first time.

Bleating about cheating refs, the only reason Welsh ever lose!

I've read the thread. You are saying that Irish(and some English) teams cheat).

The fact that you have had to explain youself 11 times suggests that either you got your wording wrong or you are trying to wriggle out of a sticky situation. I would say it is probably a bit of both and you probably misread the reaction you would get when using the word 'cheat'.

Try and think of it this way; forget you are on the interweb and pretend instead that you are in a bar full of Irishmen, then imagine yourself making that statement.

"Try and think of it this way; forget you are on the interweb and pretend instead that you are in a bar full of Irishmen, then imagine yourself making that statement. ."

That's gonna get bloody

....or else, he's going to get laughed at and have a pint bought for him for having the ..... ovals to say it.

I'd say the same.

What I should have done is put the word "better" at the end of the thread title.

SecretFly wrote:

....or else, he's going to get laughed at and have a pint bought for him for having the ..... ovals to say it.

Interesting that Nigel Davies' hasn't had the same reaction as me though. And we've basically made the exact same point.

I didn't hear the interview but I doubt very much if he used the 'c' word.

In any case, what is so unusual about a disgruntled, losing coach, complaining about some of the refs decisions?

mankiaow.... Was that the name of Clint Eastwoods character in "For a Few Dollars More" by any chance?

Coming in late on this. Munster cheat from time to time. Its usually in the form of a seal off or slowing the ball.

HOWEVER and these points have been ignored or not picked up by some posters

- These teams are capable of very good play too and its very easy to dismiss good rugby as cheating because of a reputation.

- I watch Scarlets achieve sexy rugby by cheating all the time. They obstruct. They conceded THREE penalties for this in the last match but usually they get away with it. Its marginal but effective like Munster.

There is not a rugby team in the world who has never cheated.

reading through the thread Chunky admitted he should have added 'better' at the end of the thread title, it's very obvious that all teams will try and get away with whatever they can, it's just that Munster are much more experienced at playing the ref and the younger Scarlets team are very much on a learning curve. And if Chunky didn't mean that then god knows what he was on about.

Morgannwg wrote:mankiaow.... Was that the name of Clint Eastwoods character in "For a Few Dollars More" by any chance?

Nothing so butch, I'm afraid. I live in thailand(7 hrs ahead). My wife kept saying 'mankiaow' to our new baby so I just used it when I was signing up. I have no idea what it means. I was 'Elsmido' on the old 606.

Turkster wrote:reading through the thread Chunky admitted he should have added 'better' at the end of the thread title, it's very obvious that all teams will try and get away with whatever they can, it's just that Munster are much more experienced at playing the ref and the younger Scarlets team are very much on a learning curve. And if Chunky didn't mean that then god knows what he was on about.

precisely. It's quite amusing that some people thought I was complaining about the result though.

I'm new to this board, but it seems the Welsh have a large reputation on here.

'Certainly, there was a knowing twinkle in his eye as, in private session, he discussed events at the tackle area, where the brilliant Irish flanker Sean O'Brien got away with blue murder in the first degree so often that he must now be of interest to every criminologist in the land.'

The Independent.

I seems you are no alone in critisizing Irish teams tactics, Chunky. Now our players are criminals as well! Although you don't see the 'c' word being used. The problem is none of the refs seem to agree with you(or Sir Ian).

You may also note that both Leinster and Munster are coached by antipodieans. So maybe there is something in that.

You know what will happen though, just as Welsh teams start to adopt the same tactics, the IRB will issue a new directive to refs to clamp down.

It's a cruel world.

mankiaow wrote:'Certainly, there was a knowing twinkle in his eye as, in private session, he discussed events at the tackle area, where the brilliant Irish flanker Sean O'Brien got away with blue murder in the first degree so often that he must now be of interest to every criminologist in the land.'

The Independent.

I seems you are no alone in critisizing Irish teams tactics, Chunky. Now our players are criminals as well! Although you don't see the 'c' word being used. The problem is none of the refs seem to agree with you(or Sir Ian).

You may also note that both Leinster and Munster are coached by antipodieans. So maybe there is something in that.

They were very good at the breakdown with Kidney too.

You know what will happen though, just as Welsh teams start to adopt the same tactics, the IRB will issue a new directive to refs to clamp down.

It's a cruel world.

That's our own fault for not doing it sooner. which is the entire point of this thread.

mankiaow wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:mankiaow.... Was that the name of Clint Eastwoods character in "For a Few Dollars More" by any chance?

Nothing so butch, I'm afraid. I live in thailand(7 hrs ahead). My wife kept saying 'mankiaow' to our new baby so I just used it when I was signing up. I have no idea what it means. I was 'Elsmido' on the old 606.

My mistake, it's actually "Monco." They sound the same though. How is your thai bride working out for you? Hope she was worth every euro mate.

miankiaow means "cute little Winkle" in Thai - southern dialect

Morgannwg wrote:

mankiaow wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:mankiaow.... Was that the name of Clint Eastwoods character in "For a Few Dollars More" by any chance?

Nothing so butch, I'm afraid. I live in thailand(7 hrs ahead). My wife kept saying 'mankiaow' to our new baby so I just used it when I was signing up. I have no idea what it means. I was 'Elsmido' on the old 606.

My mistake, it's actually "Monco." They sound the same though. How is your thai bride working out for you? Hope she was worth every euro mate.

Steady on now Morgan, did your mother never tell you, nobody likes a smartarse!

nganboy wrote:miankiaow means "cute little Winkle" in Thai - southern dialect

Ha ha. That's great. I didn't realise how appropriate it was.

How do you know that anyway? Spent some time in the land of smiles?