Adam Jones The Next To Go To France ?

It seems everyone wants to play in France...
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/12/ospreys-and-wales-prop-adam-jones-set-to-consider-french-move-91466-29941669/

We will be well and truly screwed if he decides to go anytime soon.

I honestly beleiev we could manage without the players who are outside Wales at the moment but our T/Head back ups are just nowhere near good enough.

Of course they would get far more chances at the top level if Jones wasn't available but hope it not come to that

It's always difficult to tell exactly what players are saying due to missing context but reads like he doesn't expect Gatland to drop players that move to France (mentioning Phillips specifically). I wonder whether Gatland needs to tough it out a refuse to pick any of them to make his point. If Byrne/Phillips/Hook get picked then I can see more following. If they don't they may think again.

The article says that James Hook is on £750,000 a year. Wow. That's unreal. No wonder we can't keep hold of our players.

Hammer,

I think he would be very silly to totally rule out picking players who are outside Wales but he's always said if they do go they take the risk and must be playing 1st choice at their new club.

Hook and Byrne wouldn't be missed Phillips for me is still our 1st choice No9 and we just cant afford to not have Jones in the side

The words of Adam Jones on the matter wrote:I am out of contract in June and I have decisions to make.

I would consider playing in France. I have a young family and have to look after them.

I have had no offers set in stone but I would be happy to go there.

It is not a bad standard of rugby in France but there are plusses and minuses.

I don’t think Warren Gatland or the Welsh Rugby Union are going to worry too much if two of his front five forwards are playing in France because it will only benefit us.

You are not going to tell me that Warren is going to drop (someone like) Mike Phillips.

If the region are not going to offer you a new contract or the type of money on offer elsewhere you might have to go.

Gethin is in the same situation as Luke Charteris. Internationals are often labelled as money grabbers but that is not the case.
If you look at someone like Luke and Gethin now they could set himself up for life by going for France. There is no point in Cat footing around and saying definitely you want to stay with the region. If they have to do something that is financially right then they have to go.

There is not the money in Wales at the moment to keep those players. The regions have to balance their books so it is tough situation.

Playing in France probably would benefit Adam as a player, it would force Wales to find replacement tightheads faster.

At least its not like the old league days where the players could never return. It just interferes with their National Squad Training prior to internationals.

Ospreys Coach Sean Holley wrote:
I just know that from a coaching point of view I want Adam Jones to play at the Ospreys, quality tight-heads are at a premium, but it isn’t just that. It’s the status he has, coming from this region.

I taught him when he was 17 and have known him and his parents a long time. He loves it here and it’s his home place, so it would be a downright shame if something wasn’t worked out. But clearly market forces prevail and we can’t compete, particularly when you get an average crowd of 6,000 at home to add to your funding.

It’s very difficult for us to compete, as was shown with James Hook. I clearly hope something happens because as a coaching team we want Adam here.

You can't blame them going for the money these days, its a professional sport and they have to earn a wage.

Not many of us would turn down a huge pay deal just because it meant we had to move.

They know the risk and maybe it will need Gatland and the WRU to be hard nosed to prove a point 6 Nations will soon show how hard nosed he is

"You are not going to tell me that Warren is going to drop (someone like) Mike Phillips."

Regardless of his own opinions should he really be saying stuff like this to the media. Seems like its undermining Gatland

I don't see how playing in France benefits any of our players to be honest. It is an insult to our clubs and academies that have produced so many good players for us. Hook is a money grabber. Although the rest how are in their thirties may not get this chance again, we will just have to find replacements sooner.

Jones would be a huge loss. I imagine he'll get a pretty good offer too. We're seeing with munster the difference a good tighthead makes. The guy is a class act and there must be some kind of approach by WRU to keep this standard of player at home. I guess this goes back to the central contract arguement.

Playing in France can improve a player no doubt - exposing them to more and tougher games and a tougher atmosphere as well as broader education - but for someone at Jones stage of career I doubt it will help

Golden wrote:"You are not going to tell me that Warren is going to drop (someone like) Mike Phillips."

Regardless of his own opinions should he really be saying stuff like this to the media. Seems like its undermining Gatland

Golden,

I did read that and thought mmmm maybe that could come back and bite him. Maybe Gatland would use the next opportunity as proof to show he means it.

Not many of us would turn down a huge pay deal just because it meant we had to move.

Especially if that move was the somewhere like the South of France. Oh the tragedy of moving for more money, better weather and nice food.

Whilst the French clubs have a salary cap of about twice what everyone else in Europe has then there will never be much competition.

Very good news this. Now it will just take Gethin and perhaps a back (Jonathan Davies?) to speak out about possible moves to France and Roger Lewis will be forced to make a statement about how to keep these players in Wales....i.e. - pay them more.

The wheels are in motion.

Maybe this is why he isnt answering my emails about the Q&A!

Griff wrote:The article says that James Hook is on £750,000 a year. Wow. That's unreal. No wonder we can't keep hold of our players.

At the time it was reported that Hook's deal was worth £750,000, total, for what I think was a 3 year deal. Not helping Perpignan at present, since Hook came back from the World Cup they have lost 7 games in succession. The won at the weekend mind, but Hook was not in the 22.

Back to the topic, with Adam Jones Wales are a good side, without him they are not. The only way to keep players in Wales is to have central contracts!

Seagultaf wrote: The only way to keep players in Wales is to have central contracts!

Why would the regions want central contracted players? They'd rather have non internationals.

If the players are centrally contracrted, then the WRU will pull them out of half the Heineken Cup group matches, and other important games. That would render them useless to the regions.

The answer is top up contracts.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Seagultaf wrote: The only way to keep players in Wales is to have central contracts!

Why would the regions want central contracted players? They'd rather have non internationals.

If the players are centrally contracrted, then the WRU will pull them out of half the Heineken Cup group matches, and other important games. That would render them useless to the regions.

The answer is top up contracts.

Nigel Davies has already said that he wants it. It would keep players at the regions

Seagultaf wrote:

Griff wrote:The article says that James Hook is on £750,000 a year. Wow. That's unreal. No wonder we can't keep hold of our players.

At the time it was reported that Hook's deal was worth £750,000, total, for what I think was a 3 year deal. Not helping Perpignan at present, since Hook came back from the World Cup they have lost 7 games in succession. The won at the weekend mind, but Hook was not in the 22.

Back to the topic, with Adam Jones Wales are a good side, without him they are not. The only way to keep players in Wales is to have central contracts!

Personally I've gone off Hook since the world cup due to his dip in form, however there are 14 other players on the pitch, he cannot be blamed for their losses, causation is misleading in this example.

maestegmafia wrote:Nigel Davies has already said that he wants it. It would keep players at the regions

He didn't actually. He said we need to sit down and discuss a way forward with the WRU.

I don't even recall him mentioning the word central.

Griff wrote:The article says that James Hook is on £750,000 a year. Wow. That's unreal. No wonder we can't keep hold of our players.

To be honest, and based on the salaries I do have a fair idea about, I don't believe that figure.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Seagultaf wrote: The only way to keep players in Wales is to have central contracts!

Why would the regions want central contracted players? They'd rather have non internationals.

If the players are centrally contracrted, then the WRU will pull them out of half the Heineken Cup group matches, and other important games. That would render them useless to the regions.

The answer is top up contracts.

Yeah because the Irish players on central contracts miss half the H-cup games for thier Province and other important games, like the play offs.

Can't say what way is best for Wales, but this isn't even a thought out argument against central contracts.

Kingshu wrote:

Yeah because the Irish players on central contracts miss half the H-cup games for thier Province and other important games, like the play offs.

Why are you comparing Ireland with Wales?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Yeah because the Irish players on central contracts miss half the H-cup games for thier Province and other important games, like the play offs.

Why are you comparing Ireland with Wales?

Yeah catch yourself on Kingshu! Central contracts only work for us because we cheat at the breakdown!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Yeah because the Irish players on central contracts miss half the H-cup games for thier Province and other important games, like the play offs.

Why are you comparing Ireland with Wales?

Doesn't matter about country, its about how central contracts work.

I showed how silly your comment was, by comparing it with a system that has central contracts already in place, and none of your worries about cental contracts exist.

Kingshu wrote:
Doesn't matter about country, its about how central contracts work.

I showed how silly your comment was, by comparing it with a system that has central contracts already in place, and none of your worries about cental contracts exist.

Wow. Can't wait to be in the room when Peter Thomas and Huw Evans get told all of this then.

Private businesses just told that their most productive employees are no lonegr employed by them?

Good luck with that in court.

Resting Irish players does not include HC matches - it is only Pro12.

The Provinces insisted on that clause and it was accepted by Dublin.

geoff998rugby wrote:Resting Irish players does not include HC matches - it is only Pro12.

The Provinces insisted on that clause and it was accepted by Dublin.

What has this got to do with Welsh regions?

The WRU would have their best Wales players play very few games for theior region if they could. Central contracts would allow them to do this. It would be a disaster for the regions.

.....as opposed to organising a dead rubber international a week before the 3rd round of the HEC which is in the best interests of the regions?

Surely having the best Welsh players centrally contracted and available for a limited number of key games is preferable for the regions to not have them at all because they are in France?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Resting Irish players does not include HC matches - it is only Pro12.

The Provinces insisted on that clause and it was accepted by Dublin.

What has this got to do with Welsh regions?

The WRU would have their best Wales players play very few games for theior region if they could. Central contracts would allow them to do this. It would be a disaster for the regions.

What are you smoking????

The WRU want their best players, playing together, against the best teams, this is the way to develop and improve them. Its the reason for regionalisation the Pro 12 ect. To play the best teams the best players will play in the H-cup as its the closest to international rugby anyone can get in the northern Hemp.

roddersm wrote:

Surely having the best Welsh players centrally contracted and available for a limited number of key games is preferable for the regions to not have them at all because they are in France?

No. It's not.

Completely the opposite. A setteld squad with non-internationals is far more ideal.

Kingshu wrote:

What are you smoking????

The WRU want their best players, playing together, against the best teams, this is the way to develop and improve them. Its the reason for regionalisation the Pro 12 ect. To play the best teams the best players will play in the H-cup as its the closest to international rugby anyone can get in the northern Hemp.

Have you not been around for the last 10 days?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Surely having the best Welsh players centrally contracted and available for a limited number of key games is preferable for the regions to not have them at all because they are in France?

No. It's not.

Completely the opposite. A setteld squad with non-internationals is far more ideal.

OK thats fair enough. I think you are wrong, central contracts work for us and I think it would work for Wales. Unless the Welsh Regions can afford to hold on to their top players the exodus to France will continue which surely can't be good for Wales or the regions.

roddersm wrote:]

OK thats fair enough. I think you are wrong, central contracts work for us and I think it would work for Wales.

Who owns the Irish provinces?

Unless the Welsh Regions can afford to hold on to their top players the exodus to France will continue which surely can't be good for Wales or the regions.

Of course the ideal situatin is that the regions hold on to their players because they can afford to pay them......with extra funding via top up contracts from the WRU.

how do you propose top up contracts work?

It sounds like the WRU giving the Welsh regions more money, but not getting any say in it.

If the WRU pay part of the salary they are going to want a return and I suspect the return willl be the same as Dublin - rest players from an agreed number of matches.

The clubs can't have it both ways - either rest players, under central contracts, or lose them to France and England - that is the choice

Kingshu wrote:how do you propose top up contracts work?

It sounds like the WRU giving the Welsh regions more money, but not getting any say in it.

That's why they need to sit down and discuss it. Compromise. The regions shouldn't have signed the participation agreement in 2009, but were running out of time before legal action was taken. Look how much disarray the wallabies test match caused the regions last weekend.

The iRB's schedule is 5 day release for players before a test match. Some unions increase it a little. But the WRU insists on 13 days training before any test match. That's more than any other. Central contracts would increase this, the WRU are shafting the regions as they are.

That is ridiculous. And the regions cannot be expected to operate without their best players for this time. Wales played 17 internationals this year. Do the maths and see how many days they were not at the regions.

And STILL, some people wonder why Welsh region hasn't won the Heineken Cup.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The clubs can't have it both ways - either rest players, under central contracts, or lose them to France and England - that is the choice

If that's the choice then I guarantee they will choose to lose them to France and England. Take heed of Sean Holleys comments in todays article:

Holley admitted it was tough for regions to dish out huge offers to star players when they spent significant periods of the season with Wales.

“It’s very difficult to justify spending that money,” he said.

“There are international windows three times a year, in the autumn, the Six Nations and the summer.

“If you add a Lions tour and a World Cup it’s very hard to justify, so you can see what we are dealing with here.

“I notice some of the other regions are banging on about it now.

“I can tell you now we’ve experienced it for the past five or six years.

NOT WORTHWHILE.

I don't think you can claim that the number of Internationals played is the reason Welsh clubs haven't won the HC.

Not being good enough seems a far more plausible reason.

Look to be fair Adam, Gethin, and Phillips wont be at another World Cup for Wales. So at some point Wales will need to move on, nothing will change that.

I actually think it needs to be this way. A player securing their finanacial future at 29/30 is not unrealisitc and benefits the player for the years out of rugby.

I still maintain that Gatland has got it right on conditioning and player release. If they cant get release they shouldnt be selected. Simple rule really. I just hope he sticks with it as he will have a tough decision to make with Hook this 6 Nations.

I see both sides of the argument. It boils down to working within the restrictions. Adam Jones however will be a big loss but it may forces some Tighthead development as this position we are weak at the moment.

People like Gethin and Phillips bother me less as we always produce quality Looseheads and Scrum Halves. Now I'm not saying they wont be missed, my point is given that they wont appear for Wales at the next WC its a calculated move (as Wales will need to find replacements at some point).

So good luck to all the players going. And I hope the youngsters take their chances when filling the gaps.

So Wales should forget that they currently have the best tighthead in the world, and play a younger model all because of a tournament that is happenning in 2015?

That is bonkers thinking in my opinion.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:how do you propose top up contracts work?

It sounds like the WRU giving the Welsh regions more money, but not getting any say in it.

That's why they need to sit down and discuss it. Compromise. The regions shouldn't have signed the participation agreement in 2009, but were running out of time before legal action was taken. Look how much disarray the wallabies test match caused the regions last weekend.

The iRB's schedule is 5 day release for players before a test match. Some unions increase it a little. But the WRU insists on 13 days training before any test match. That's more than any other. Central contracts would increase this, the WRU are shafting the regions as they are.

That is ridiculous. And the regions cannot be expected to operate without their best players for this time. Wales played 17 internationals this year. Do the maths and see how many days they were not at the regions.

And STILL, some people wonder why Welsh region hasn't won the Heineken Cup.

What about the 5 million a year the WRU give the regions to pay for the Welsh players? Surley this is compension enough. I'd like to see how the regions survive if the WRU said, we'll just use the IRB windows and keep the 5 million per region a year. You can't have it both ways!

Kingshu wrote:

What about the 5 million a year the WRU give the regions to pay for the Welsh players? Surley this is compension enough. I'd like to see how the regions survive if the WRU said, we'll just use the IRB windows and keep the 5 million per region a year. You can't have it both ways!

The regions barely survive with that £5 million. They are on their arses.

Domestic rugby in Wales is completely unviable and unsustainable.

So in answer to your question - no it is not enough. The WRU can play hardball all they like, but by not looking after the regions, they will bite the hand that feeds them and end up with zero assets - no players.

Then we'll see if they get 72,000 people turnign up to watch semi-pro players.

So you'r saying the WRU should fund the regions £5 million, but not ask for any extra squad training days from the regions?

maybe they could just adopt the Elite squad thing like England, but I think the regions would suffer if the funding was redirected to players rather than regions.

Only real way to do it, is reduce the payments to the regions, and centrally contact the best players, the best players will have to be released for international squads, and seen as the WRU are still funding the regions the non Centrally contracted players, that are called to the squad would have to get released early as well. Regions may get the WRU to agree to no games outside international windows. Think you'll hate that one.

Whats your suggestion, WRU increase payments to regions, regions release players less, and money can be spent on NWQ players, and regions can have as many NWQ players as they want?

I would personally drop any player that goes overseas - yes we may get humped for a while but as the Scarlets and now the Ospreys have shown, young talent is out there and can do the job - just ask Munster and Northamptoin.

If we don't stop this emigration, we will end up like wendyball. They make their beds, so they should lie in it - drop them all!

Chunky Norwich wrote:So Wales should forget that they currently have the best tighthead in the world, and play a younger model all because of a tournament that is happenning in 2015?

That is bonkers thinking in my opinion.

I see what you are saying. Adam Jones is probably the most important player at the moment for Wales. But International success in the long run won't be built on his shoulders. Eventually Wales will have to replace him. If you leave the introduction of players to late they won't prepare in time. It also was evident that if Wales have any realistic hopes of doing well they need to cultivate class replacements in the front 8 so a second tighthead is essential. Given there probably are around 40 games or so until the next WC, how long would you leave it before you bring players in?

It happened with New Zealand as well when Hayman left. They managed through it.

Its not like he cant be selected if Wales need him (providing it falls in the International window), just that conditioning and preparation is so vital. Either way the game moves on at some stage and no one player becomes the be all or end all of a game. Thats just life.


I know the Clubs seem to think they pay their stars a lot and then dont have them as much as they would like but they need to be careful on this especially if Warren selects inhouse regardless and they continue to lose players (even if its not the ones they initially planned on). The whole point is that each Region should have 2 players in every position who is of the standard they could represent Wales at National level. Until the regions have that kind of depth it is understandable why they are not to happy about call ups. To be fair the only reason this is actually an issue at the moment is because the attendances at Regional level are so poor. If we had Leinster's attendances they could afford to keep their better players.

Welshmushroom wrote:. Given there probably are around 40 games or so until the next WC, how long would you leave it before you bring players in?

I personally think Adam Jones will play in the next world cup with Gethin if injuries don't take their toll.

Ledesma did alright in the front row.

I know the Clubs seem to think they pay their stars a lot and then dont have them as much as they would like but they need to be careful on this especially if Warren selects inhouse regardless and they continue to lose players (even if its not the ones they initially planned on).

Which is why the WRU need to keep the players in Wales - and keep the regional owwners happy. If we end up with our first 15 overseas - not playing for Wales - and Gatland selecting 2nd choice Wales squads then Wales will get hammered by Scotland every game, and the regions will get hammerred by the likes of Aironi every game.

The whole point is that each Region should have 2 players in every position who is of the standard they could represent Wales at National level.

That is a big ask. We normally have only 15 - 20 test quality players.

Until the regions have that kind of depth it is understandable why they are not to happy about call ups. To be fair the only reason this is actually an issue at the moment is because the attendances at Regional level are so poor. If we had Leinster's attendances they could afford to keep their better players.

Catch 22. It won't get better as we don't have the player base. And the Pro 12 is an awful product.

[quote="Chunky Norwich"]

Welshmushroom wrote:. And the Pro 12 is an awful product.

Given the Number of Players its helped Develop, and how much Wales, Ireland and now Italy have gained from it, don't know if it can be called an awful product.

I do agree it can be improved as a specticle, and League, but then the Welsh sides (apart from Ospreys) don't seam to take it serious.

Kingshu wrote:

Given the Number of Players its helped Develop, and how much Wales, Ireland and now Italy have gained from it, don't know if it can be called an awful product.

I do agree it can be improved as a specticle, and League, but then the Welsh sides (apart from Ospreys) don't seam to take it serious.

Not sure why you say the only team that take it serious are the Ospreys

They all have to take it serious becaue 1 of them won't be in the Heineken Cup next season.

When you have a Welsh derby being played without any of the Wales test players then the product and spectacle is massively compromised. The Welsh regions are always shown on tv. What incentive is there to go watch the league games?

None.

Unless maybe you have a free ticket to go and watch the Blues.

So if i run a scenario past you -

Option A - Wales secure all their Star names for an additional 2 million pound. During the 2 Years Wales enjoy moderate success placing First and Third at a 6 Nations.

Option B - Wales spend 2 million in increased young player programs with 50 players taken on with proffessional playing contracts. 10 of those go on to feature for Wales at National level (a simplistic scenario on youth development).

Which would you choose? Because essentially that is the choice we are making. Personally I would like to see more youngsters getting pro contracts to develop themselves. Invest in the future is the way to go.

And no Wales does not have the money to do both otherwise this wouldnt be a talking point in the first place.

I understand the regions frustration that they are not playing on level playing fields in Europe. But lets be fair they are not alone (England, Scotland & Ireland all in the same boat). I think the Regions think if they can win European Silverware that it will boost the attendances. Sadly this is not the case. They have had top players available and strong squads with new stadiums and that still didnt make a difference.

Until the old club fan guard die out and the new generation start supporting regional rugby I cant see it change. But thats the current limitations they may have to work with for a while. I dont see this always being the case. 15 years from now they could all be playing to 30,000 attendances if todays kids grow up to be tomorrows fans. At that point they will probably end up being able to afford to keep the top players.