Cleverly to face Andrzej Fonfara

First topic message reminder :

25th February, Cardiff Motorpoint Arena.

WBO Number 9.
Already stopped.
Doesn't look like a big puncher.

Tough sell.

I think he needs an easy fight for a home coming..

AlexHuckerby wrote:Hmm... Shumenov fight appears to have gone walkabout then.

It was never on in reality. Shumenov offered the fight in America only. Considering he robbed Campillo there's the risk Clev gets robbed as well. Also, Shumenov is a no mark champion who can't sell in his adopted country. It would make much more business sense to fight in the UK.

two_tone wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Just understood the one percent jibe

Could also refer to the amount of useful posts you contribute.

Ow.

I'll put my claws away now.

88Chris05 wrote:For someone who is twenty-odd fights in to their career but is calling themself a 'world champion' with two successful defences behind them, Cleverly's opposition has been pretty awful so far.

By modern day paper champion standards it's not that bad really. Given that Murat was and still is a top 10 operator and Bellew who is probably borderline top 10 and likely to establish himself as a decent euro/fringe world level fighter it's not THAT bad.

I would have prefered him fight Sukhovsky who is a worthy title challenger and a tough fight for Cleverly. I won't defend this match up though!

Murat was probably the best and probably credentials wise the best he's faced, but considering that was for just a poxy WBO Intercontinental belt and he has since gone onto world honours it is a bit poor.

His world title fights have only been Kuziemski (sub for a runaway champ) and Bellew. It's not THAT bad and you can't measure after just two fights. What can you do about a champion that would rather dump his belt than face you?

If he's fighting Fonfaras one after the other in 6 fights time then he deserves the criticism he's prematurely getting right now.

Well no, however the point I am making is that the level of opposition should increase rather than go down once you are a world champion this will be his third defence as champion and it's still not a step up from Murat which was for the WBO Intercontinental belt...

If he's gonna be a long reigning champ he's bound to get some cans now and then whilst waiting to secure the big fights. I'd much rather my boxers stay busy and build up their resume than lazy fighters like David Haye who fight once a year and mouth off.

I would just say in his next five fights it should be something like - Can, Good fighter, Can, Big unifcation fight, Can.

As long as he don't do Can, Can, Can, Can, Can, then I'll be happy.

Super as I said previously think he would not get so much grief were it not for the fact his promoter has form for this sort of thing, and also if they did not make so much noise about the next one being (insert big name).

Hope you are right and the criticism does prove premature and unwarranted and he ends up in unfications and tough fights sooner rather than later but given how Warren has handled other fighters you can understand the cynicism.

Understood Jeff but I think we're being overly cynical and very premature in our judging......collectively.

Like I said I'd rather him fights bums and often than not fight at all. So many champs these days fight once a year, and twice if we're lucky. I think Cleverly is starting to become a three fights a year kind of champ and I much prefer to see that. If he can get one big win in the middle of next year in between two bum wins at the start and end of the year then we should be satisfied enough with his work.

Not entirely convinced by the earlier argument that Cleverly is entitled to fight consistently average opposition as he was upgraded to champion, rather than having taken it in the ring (yes, I thought the same when I typed that last bit).

If we look at, say, Lennox Lewis and compare his first three defences after being awarded the WBC belt in late 1992 / early 1993. First up was Tony Tucker, a highly capable former belt holder who, at that point, had suffered one career loss, to a Tyson at the absolute peak of his powers. In fact, he'd been one of the few to have given Tyson anything to think about.

Next came Bruno. Now, if memory serves me correctly, big Frank had earned his crack at the WBC title by stopping Pierre Coetzer, who'd previously been the number two contender with the WBC, a position lost by losing to Bowe. Now I'll accept that Bruno was no great shakes, but he was a lot more deserving of a title crack than Kuzmieski, Bellew or Fonfara, and did have some notable performances on the biggest stage to support his claims.

Jackson, in fairness, was at best comparable with the Bellews of the world, I'd say. But it's undeniable that Lewis, who was perhaps hastily upgraded to world championship status in much the same way Cleverly has been, fought a far better level of opposition to begin his reign than Cleverly so far has.

The feeling amongst some seems to almost be saying, "Well, Cleverly didn't ask to be made champion", but I think it's a bit fanciful to defend his dross opposition on such a basis.

He needs to start fighting some more attractive and deserving names, and quickly.

Chris, agree in principle but to compare the WBC Heavyweight title to the WBO Light Heavyweight title is a little unfair. Given that the WBC HW Title is probably the most prized possession in the sport held by the likes of Ali, Frazier, Tyson it's no wonder the competition for it is very strong. But let's compare Cleverly on a like for like basis. Who has Tavoris Cloud or Beibut Shumenov actually beaten to be world champions and what about their defenses?? One fights once a year and the other raids Boxing's old folks home!

Think we need to be less hasty in judging Cleverly.

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Cue Steffan to say the Fonfara is a tough test

Dont really know a lot about him. Keeps Clev active for now though. Me and my brother are getting tickets for this either way

Super D Boon wrote:Chris, agree in principle but to compare the WBC Heavyweight title to the WBO Light Heavyweight title is a little unfair.

Why is it?

Fighters make titles these days, as they say. The WBC Heavyweight title in 1993 was, if you strip away the 'history' which makes no difference to a fighter's ability, no different to the WBO 175 lb crown now. Both belong to a man who is a belt holder rather than 'the' champion at the weight. Neither belt features in the biggest fights in the division at each respective time.

Do we commend Lewis for taking on better opponents, or condemn Cleverly for doing the opposite? My guess would be somewhere in the middle if we're looking for a fair evaluation, but it's still a bit of an eye opener all the same.

Well I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that certain trinkets have more appeal than others. Given that in Lewis' time I still don't think the WBO belt was cared that much about and it's only Bowe and the K bros that have given that piece any kind of historical value.

Whatever your opinion on that matter I don't think we're comparing like for like in these circumstances. Tavoris Cloud gets a good reputation all in all, but why? He fights rarely, has beaten mainly washed up fighters like Gonzalez and Woods and yet he keeps on being rated alongside the likes of Hopkins and Dawson. And Shumenov! Where to begin with that guy?

Will agree to disagree then, Super D!

I'm saying that Cloud, Pascal, Dawson, Shumenov etc are truly great fighters. What I'm saying is, they are still substantially better fighters than the men Cleverly has so far been facing as champion. Of course, I don't expect him to be facing a divisional top four man every time, but this is his third world title fight now, and even allowing for today's boxing climate, he didn't exactly have to prove himself against any dangerous operators on the way to the world stage. I find it a little annoying that a fighter can linger on the cusp of, and then in the middle of, the world title arena without having faced anyone of international note.

So its just me going to this fight on here then

Steffan wrote:So its just me going to this fight on here then

Am washing my hair that night Steffan.

rowley wrote:

Steffan wrote:So its just me going to this fight on here then

Am washing my hair that night Steffan.

Your enthusiasm is appreciated...

alma wrote:At least Ricky Burns has fought a couple of decent names

Thats because he is not a rubbish fighter and total ducker/coward like Cleverly...

To be fair Burns has a better say than most of the British guys, to win his world title at SFW he beat the best guy about in the weight division, even if the weight division was lacking.

Steffan wrote:

alma wrote:At least Ricky Burns has fought a couple of decent names

Thats because he is not a rubbish fighter and total ducker/coward like Cleverly...

Bit harsh. I think average and carefully matched is a better description.

Scottrf wrote:

Steffan wrote:

alma wrote:At least Ricky Burns has fought a couple of decent names

Thats because he is not a rubbish fighter and total ducker/coward like Cleverly...

Bit harsh. I think average and carefully matched is a better description.

I was only going with the general opinion...

Steffan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Steffan wrote:

alma wrote:At least Ricky Burns has fought a couple of decent names

Thats because he is not a rubbish fighter and total ducker/coward like Cleverly...

Bit harsh. I think average and carefully matched is a better description.

I was only going with the general opinion...

The whole world is against Welsh fighters, it's such a hard life huh?

To be fair, who the bloody hell has Cleverly ducked, the only person who has actually called Clevrly out to my knowledge is the one he's fougth (Bellew) of course Enzo is now starting to call him out, but he hasn't warranted a title shot yet (Even by Warren standards)

Chris, don't know if I can agree with Shumenov being "substantially" better than annyone Cleverly's faced . Given that Shumenov scraped past Campillo and also has a loss to him. Campillo has lost and drawn to Murat who Cleverly annihilated. As for beating dangerous opponents on the way to the world stage then Murat clearly has to be regarded as a "dangerous" opponent.

Cloud has better "names" but I think Woods was way over the hill and retired afterwards and watched the Gonzelez fight where the Mexican was clearly shot.

I'd say Celverly (out of the champions) is the third best. Shumenov is clearly the worst in terms of record and ability.

I'm not suddenly saying Cleverly's record is brilliant only it should be measured in today's context and measured agaisnt the records of his peers. If you consider Shumenov's poor record and Cloud's inactivity then I don't think he should be overly criticised at this point in time.

Now, now Steffan nobody has said that they have merely said his choice of opponents thus far as a champion has been disappointing, which seems pretty fair and is a good step away from what you are claiming anyone is saying.

Scottrf wrote:The whole world is against Welsh fighters, it's such a hard life huh?

It keeps me awake at night...

rowley wrote:Now, now Steffan nobody has said that they have merely said his choice of opponents thus far as a champion has been disappointing, which seems pretty fair and is a good step away from what you are claiming anyone is saying.

It was the 'washing my hair' comment that did it...

Wish I had enough hair to wash mate

rowley wrote:Steffan given I have said I find this opponent disappointed and the fight is being held miles from where I live is fairly obvious I'm not going to be going, how you get from there to everyone thinking Cleverly is rubbish seems something of a leap to me.

And there was me gonna offer you a place to stay

Tut

Can I stay Steph? Reckon we’d have a laugh out in Cardiff.

To be fair I won't be making any sacrifices to see this one...

Steffan wrote:

rowley wrote:Steffan given I have said I find this opponent disappointed and the fight is being held miles from where I live is fairly obvious I'm not going to be going, how you get from there to everyone thinking Cleverly is rubbish seems something of a leap to me.

And there was me gonna offer you a place to stay

Tut

Made editing that post a little pointless, decided I was being a bit po faced and it come across as me spoiling for a row, but since you quoted it bit late to worry about now

rowley wrote:Wish I had enough hair to wash mate

That's funny Jeff. I always pictured you having a full head of dark brown hair, quite thin and below national average height. Also you occassionally wear glasses to read or use a PC.

Not even close?

I think you're right on the short, but not the thin or full head of hair.

I actually had a very weird feeling that I was speaking to Jeff at the Mag 7 before, not sure why.

Super D Boon wrote:

rowley wrote:Wish I had enough hair to wash mate

That's funny Jeff. I always pictured you having a full head of dark brown hair, quite thin and below national average height. Also you occassionally wear glasses to read or use a PC.

Not even close?

To be fair I do have hair but it is shaved to the wood so doesn't really need much washing, as for the others its all getting a bit plenty of fish on here so that is as much as I'm going to say.

I imagine Rowley as a 6"2 slightly balding but not too bad kinda heavy but not particularly heavy kinda guy. Glasses, big guy, but friendly looking. Probably nowhere near though.

Scottrf wrote:Can I stay Steph? Reckon we’d have a laugh out in Cardiff.

Yeah come along. Bring plenty of wonga though as my brother is coming and he always wants to go lapdancing by the end of the night

rowley wrote:Made editing that post a little pointless, decided I was being a bit po faced and it come across as me spoiling for a row, but since you quoted it bit late to worry about now

No worries we wont have a row. Im feeling the Xmas love

AlexHuckerby wrote:I imagine Rowley as a 6"2 slightly balding but not too bad kinda heavy but not particularly heavy kinda guy. Glasses, big guy, but friendly looking. Probably nowhere near though.

Very close Alex, am six one but have never wore glasses which goes to prove it does not send you blind, alas you are correct on the heavy comment.

Steffan wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Can I stay Steph? Reckon we’d have a laugh out in Cardiff.

Yeah come along. Bring plenty of wonga though as my brother is coming and he always wants to go lapdancing by the end of the night

Oh really... Is he a good dancer then?

AlexHuckerby wrote:Oh really... Is he a good dancer then?

Your too young to understand Alex

Dont worry you will learn

I think with Cleverly its probably a case of him walking before he could crawl with regard the world title. I just dont think hes ready for the better guys in the division and in truth Warren will probably suspect this. Hes facing these current opponents because because hes not ready for the bigger names yet. Id say Hopkins, Dawson, Cloud, Pascal and Erdei would beat him and Shumenov/Dicaonu probably close to a 50/50 I would guess.

Fonfara would have Warren's fingerprints all over him, though according to boxrec he's fighting one Phil Williams in 3 days. Surely even Frank Warren wouldn't be indecent enough to still put him in with Clev if Fonfara was to lose that one!? Come to think of it what source gave you this info Scott? Sorry if by chance I've been gullible enough to swoop at what was meant with tongue in cheek all along...

Sukhotsky or Sillakh would be much better fights if Clev wants to prepare for the "big boys", otherwise he just risks rusting over against bums against whom he doesn't have to try particularly hard, in which case he'd probably be cannon fodder whenever he does step up.

It's on BBC Wales mate, and ESPN.

All I can find on the beeb says he's just fighting in Cardiff next but his opponent has yet to be confirmed.

And ESPN has him listed as fighting the ever-active TBA in Feb.

http://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/126097.html

BBC changed the story.

Fair enough. Awful, awful fight if it is confirmed. Hopefully Clev can have a sit down with someone sooner or later and be advised that if it's ambition he seeks he won't get it down the Warren cherry-paved road. Get a real trainer too, not a "make me proud son" part-timer, someone who can help him develop more and actually fight to his strengths.