Salary Caps

by Bathite Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:01 pm

Following a chat about the Leinster v Bath game, some of the Irish lads seemed to think Bath were short on cash. We are owned by one of the richest blokes in the UK, at £999m net worth, but obviously limited by the cap. Then it struck me that although I knew the Aviva regs, I didn't have a clue about the HEC, or Rabo Direct. Can someone help me out?

by bedfordwelsh Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:06 pm

Well there's no salary cap in the Rabo (that I am aware of) just not enough money to compete, certainly with what the French are offering

by beshocked Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:28 pm

Apologies Bathite but where did you pluck the £999 million net worth from?

According to the link below Bruce Craig is worth £300 million

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/rich-getting-richer-Bristolians-creep-list/story-11305278-detail/story.html

Certainly not much compared to this bloke and his family:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/89/africa-billionaires-11_Johann-Rupert-family_L9DS.html

by Bathite Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:40 pm

What the terraces were saying at the weekend, take those lists with a pinch of salt, depends if they look at cash or liquid assets. Either way, not really the point, in the worst case scenario, its still £300m, which 'isn't much'. Let me guess, the second link is the Sarries owner....does everything have to be a Sarries competition?

by Bathite Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:41 pm

Craig refused to reveal how much of his share of the £956million sale of his French-based company Marken he would pump into Bath, but he said that he was in a ‘comfortable position’ to be a custodian of the club in the same way that Brownsword has been for the past 14 years

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-1266071/Mr-Bath-filthy-rich-Multi-millionaire-Bruce-Craig-unveiled-new-Bath-owner.html#ixzz1gQwibsZc

by HongKongCherry Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:57 pm

We're all in trouble if Bath are considered to be short of cash!

Hasn't got them anywhere though has it! Wink

by beshocked Tue 13 Dec 2011, 4:59 pm

No of course not. The article says he has a share of the £956 million sale. It doesn't say how much is his. I don't where the £43m comes from.

£300 million or £900 million - it is still a lot.

The problem Bath have is that the players aren't gelling. Also what's happening with Eastmond?

by Bathite Tue 13 Dec 2011, 5:08 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:We're all in trouble if Bath are considered to be short of cash!

Hasn't got them anywhere though has it!

Rome wasn't built in a day lads, all in good time. Its a 3 year plan and we aren't even halfway. Progress with the training facilities and stadium alone would be one hell of an acheivement. Even if we are in a poor patch since Meehan left, funny that! What has Geech achieved as a club manager again? One HC I believe, in god knows how many years

Beshocked, if you read it properly, you will see that it says how much of his company share he wants to put into the club, not how much is his share. But as you say, its arbitrary.

by HongKongCherry Tue 13 Dec 2011, 5:18 pm

I must admit I used to chuckle every time I drove past the old Bath training facility, but FH is a world away. The Rec is in desperate need of improvement, so completely agree that will be a huge achievement in itself

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Dec 2011, 8:43 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:I must admit I used to chuckle every time I drove past the old Bath training facility, but FH is a world away. The Rec is in desperate need of improvement, so completely agree that will be a huge achievement in itself

I drove past Lambridge on Saturday morning and smiled to myself, I was watching a clip on BRTV the other day and Donald was being interviewed whilst leaning up against what looked like a mid-nineteenth century piece of garden architecture in the grounds at Farleigh, the only bit missing was Oddjob and his killer bowler.

Maybe it's just a matter of time? Bath already have Blowfeld....

by HongKongCherry Tue 13 Dec 2011, 9:44 pm

Surely Duncan Bell could pass for Oddjob, Caldwell as Jaws and Banahan as Alotta Vagina... Very Happy

by PJHolybloke Tue 13 Dec 2011, 9:53 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:Surely Duncan Bell could pass for Oddjob, Caldwell as Jaws and Banahan as Alotta Vagina...

That's almost funny - for a shedder. Wink

by HongKongCherry Tue 13 Dec 2011, 10:39 pm

Why, thank you kiss

by PJHolybloke Wed 14 Dec 2011, 6:12 am

It's the best I could do, it probably deserved better but...... well, you know.

by Mickado Wed 14 Dec 2011, 7:29 am

As far as I can tell there is no cap in the Pro12, but in Ireland the provinces are like departments of the national union so imposing a salary cap would be pointless. It's imposed in England to level the playing field, the IRFU do that by funding each of the 3 large provinces equally.

Each province can generate extra revenue with kit deals, sponsorship etc.

by **Ozzy3213** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 8:41 am

I don't think it is imposed in England entirely to level the playing field Mickado. It is in part designed to stop clubs from over stretching themselves and going bust, as a few did in the early days of professionalism.

by geoff998rugby Wed 14 Dec 2011, 8:42 am

The Ulster CEO last year stated that the money spent on salaries by Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Ospreys was on a par with the top English sides. That is inclusive of the central contract element

by Mickado Wed 14 Dec 2011, 8:45 am

That never occured to me Ozzy, but that's a good reason. You'd think if a club could prove it's financial stability that they could exceed the cap though, given that things must be more stable now.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:19 am

Mickado, that's the problem I have with the cap, it should give consideration to the clubs financial stability and acknowledge turnover at least.

by beshocked Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:24 am

No it shouldn't Bathite. Wink

Though nice juicy sponsors do help. Very Happy

The Italians could potentially become real powerhouses in the Pro12 with no salary cap in place. Italy obviously is much bigger and richer than Scotland,Wales and Ireland. Plenty of scope for growth there.

Treviso could potentially become an European giant in the next 10 years in my opinion. I wonder if I can get a bet that an Italian side will win the Pro 12 or HC in the next 10 years.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:32 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703583404576079963106302524.html

France introduced a salary cap of €8 million ($10.4 million) per club this year, a figure which dwarfs the wage ceiling of £4.2 million ($6.6 million) in the Premiership. In addition, salaries in French rugby have risen tenfold in the past 15 years. The average wage in the Top 14 is now €132,000—almost 60% higher than the Premiership average of roughly £75,000.

Also saw elsewhere;

Indirectly linked to salary cap is the implementation of quotas on 'foreign players'. From next season, all French clubs will be obliged to have a minimum of 40 per cent of players "trained in France" (i.e. from French academies), a drop from the 50 per cent initially planned.

That figure will rise to 50 per cent from the 2011-2012 season and will reach 60 per cent for the 2012-2013 season.

There seems to be suggestions also that for 2011-2012 the salary cap increased to €8.7 million and that no club was within 5% of this figure according to official figures (dubious, I know)

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:35 am

Some random information on the Jeff cap;

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26052011/58/aviva-premiership-clubs-salary-cap-exemption.html

England's Aviva Premiership clubs will each be permitted one player excluded from the salary cap in 2012.

It will take effect in the 2012-13 season, when the salary cap will rise from £4million next term to £4.26million, and potentially open a door to lure some of world rugby's top stars. The introduction of academy credits from next season though, will effectively take the 2012-13 cap up to a maximum of £4.5m.

Academy credits will see clubs receive a credit within the salary cap of £30,000 per player for including home-grown academy talent in their senior squads.

The maximum benefit for each club in a season will be £240,000, covering eight academy products.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:41 am

beshocked wrote:No it shouldn't Bathite.

Though nice juicy sponsors do help.

The Italians could potentially become real powerhouses in the Pro12 with no salary cap in place. Italy obviously is much bigger and richer than Scotland,Wales and Ireland. Plenty of scope for growth there.

Treviso could potentially become an European giant in the next 10 years in my opinion. I wonder if I can get a bet that an Italian side will win the Pro 12 or HC in the next 10 years.

You joking in the first point or do you have a reason? Would be interested to hear why you would be against it?

I suppose it would just be a lot easier if we could pay everyone in foreign currency in offshore accounts! cough.

I really hope Italian rugby continues to grow, just think, if Stade continue to miss out on HEC rugby, is there potential for players like Parisse to move back home and play for Treviso? Wow, that would be great.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:41 am

Oh and cheers bandwagon, thats really useful

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:44 am

That would mean;
Top14 cap of €8.7 million
Jeff cap of €5.5 million (assuming full academy credits) plus 1 marquee player

What would a marquee player pull in, realistically, somewhere around €4-500,000 per year? So that gap might be around €2.5 million..... if everyone played by the rulebook (cough)

RaboDirectPro12multifunctioncordlessgearselectorLeague doesn't have a cap that I am aware of.

by geoff998rugby Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:49 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote: What would a marquee player pull in, realistically, somewhere around €4-500,000 per year?

Well at Ulster we have Afoa, Pienaer and Payne who could all be considered marquee signings - none are on that sort of money so unless you are going for McCaw or Carter or some such I reckon you could get a marquee signing for less.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:49 am

The Ulster CEO last year stated that the money spent on salaries by Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Ospreys was on a par with the top English sides. That is inclusive of the central contract element.

There was tabloid rumour a few years ago that the likes of Leinster were above the AP cap. When they won the 2009 HEC there was talk of their salary being around 6 million euros. Don't know how true that was though they have shed some experienced and probably expensive players since then (noteabley Contepomi, Hines and Rocky Elsom).

The Italians could potentially become real powerhouses in the Pro12 with no salary cap in place

They are limited as to the number of foreign players and the distribution of that foreign talent. There was discussion when Tigers played Arioni that Arioni were only allowed to field one foreign player at 9/10/15 as those positions were hard to fill for the national team and so the Italian authority wanted Italians to get exposure in those positions. Italy need to focus on bringing back and retaining their best talent if they want their two provinces to grow. They are getting better year on year but as you say it will take a long time.

What would a marquee player pull in, realistically, somewhere around €4-500,000 per year?

At Bath or Sarries as they have rich owners who can write blank cheques. Elsewhere probably an absolute max of £300k so about 355k in Euros. The likes of Irish and Newcastle who don't meet the cap already will be uneffected.

It's about time the cap was raised in England as it has become increasingly difficult for the top clubs to retain squad strength (vital for HEC competitiveness) and hold onto their England internationals. The increase through the home grown players was a good touch as well.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:53 am

Marquee player would be up to £0.5m I reckon. Some of the top boys get around £300k at the moment, Castro one of the highest I believe. Butch James was on £250 and I think Nick Evans is £300k. Carter got £650k I think.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:54 am

A lot of the budget stuff gets based on assuming that clubs just about breakeven (or that the backer/owner is happy to take a hit of €500,000 to €1,000,000 each year to balance the books).

With that in mind, the following is a useful guide;

https://www.deloitte.com/view/en_XB/xb/news/d1d5780793a22310VgnVCM1000001a56f00aRCRD.htm

French rugby club Toulouse tops the list of Europe’s 15 biggest rugby union clubs, based on revenue, according to analysis published for the first time by the Sports Business Group at Deloitte.

The 2011 French champions generated £27.4m (€33.5m) in revenue during the 2009/10 season, followed by Clermont Auvergne (£19.5m (€23.8m)) and Leicester Tigers (£18.5m (€22.6m)) in third. By contrast, Leicester Tigers take top spot in the ranking by average attendance during the 2010/11 season, pushing its French rivals into second and third places.

Overall, the top 15 positions by revenue are dominated by French (11) and English clubs (four). The three other English clubs to be ranked in the top 15 by revenue are: Northampton Saints (11th: £12m), Harlequins (14th: £10.6m) and Gloucester (15th: £9.4m).

French and English clubs also dominate the top positions when ranked by highest average attendance, with eight and five clubs ranked in the top 15 places, respectively. However, whilst financial information on Irish clubs is not available, the strength of Munster (4th) and Leinster (6th) is evident by their high ranking by average match attendance.

Dan Jones, Partner in the Sports Business Group at Deloitte, comments: “The dominance of the French clubs in generating revenue is largely due to greater commercial income, primarily as a result of more lucrative sponsorship deals as opposed to bigger match attendance figures. Increasing revenue generation is critical for top clubs in a fiercely competitive pan-European, and indeed global, market for playing talent.”

In recent years, many of the top ranking clubs, by revenue and attendance, have been successful in attracting a greater number of occasional attendees by taking matches to larger venues, for example, Saracens to Wembley, Harlequins and London Wasps to Twickenham, Stade Français to Stade de France, Toulouse to the city’s Stade Municipal, and Toulon to the Stade Vélodrome in Marseille. Continuing to grow and engage this wider supporter base is the key to reaping further matchday and commercial revenue benefits.

Jones says: “Investment in the development of a club’s stadium facilities and community programmes can yield opportunities to drive matchday and commercial revenue by attracting and retaining these occasional attendees as regular home match goers.

“However, the ongoing challenge for all clubs is managing their cost base relative to revenue – a common issue for clubs within other sports. The growth of clubs’ costs throughout the professional era has matched or outstripped the impressive revenue growth and, whilst there is a welcome degree of regulatory control on the largest cost item (player salaries) through the salary cap in England and France, the vast majority of clubs are delivering operating losses year-on-year.”

In 2009/10, the combined Premiership club operating losses totalled £19.6m (€23.9m). Only Leicester and Northampton, the two highest revenue generating English clubs, delivered profits, highlighting the disparity between a club’s revenue generation and its profitability. In France, cost inflation from the pressure to succeed on the pitch has led to financial problems at a number of clubs recently, including Stade Français and Bourgoin.

Jones comments: “Managing a club’s cost base within its level of revenue generation is fundamental to the long-term health, sustainability and maturity of the club game. This is the toughest management challenge for any sports club.”

-Ends-

Notes to Editors:
The European Rugby Union Top 15 - 2009/10 revenue

Position Club 2009/10 Revenue (£m) 2009/10 Revenue (€m)
1 Toulouse 27.4 33.5
2 Clermont Auvergne 19.5 23.8
3 Leicester Tigers 18.5 22.6
4 Stade Français 18.0 22.0
5 Racing Métro 92 17.2 21.0
6 Toulon 16.4 20.0
7 Brive 16.0 19.5
8 Montpellier 14.8 18.1
9 Biarritz Olympique 14.5 17.7
10 Perpignan 12.9 15.7
11 Northampton Saints 12.0 14.7
12 Bayonne 12.0 14.6
13 Castres Olympique 11.8 14.5
14 Harlequins 10.6 12.9
15 Gloucester 9.4 11.4

Notes:

French club figures converted to £ using exchange rate as at 30 June 2010 (£1 = €1.2214)
Figures for Irish provinces and Scottish clubs not available
Highest placed Welsh region is Cardiff Blues with revenues of £8.8m
Source: DNACG, Companies House, Deloitte analysis

Position Club 2010/11 Average Attendance
1 Leicester Tigers 21,096
2 Toulouse 18,239
3 Clermont Auvergne 15,810
4 Munster 15,430
5 Bayonne 14,588
6 Leinster 13,707
7 Toulon 13,460
8 Northampton Saints 13,358
9 Perpignan 13,063
10 Gloucester 13,041
11 Harlequins 12,680
12 Montpellier 12,648
13 La Rochelle 11,973
14 Bath 11,853
15 Stade Français 11,722

Notes:

Includes domestic home league matches only in 2010/11 (not including play-off matches or European Rugby cup matches or other fixtures)
Average for each club is for matches played in their normal home stadium, and does not include figures for home matches played by certain clubs in larger stadia. Munster played seven Magners League (now RaboDirect Pro12) matches at Thomond Park, Limerick in 2010/11 and four matches at the smaller Musgrave Park, Cork. The average figure shown above covers all eleven matches at Limerick and Cork. The average for seven matches at Thomond Park was 20,180.
Source: LNR, PRL, Celtic Rugby, Deloitte analysis

Basis of Preparation
Revenue figures are extracted from club’s annual financial statements, reporting by the French League’s financial body, the Direction Nationale d’aide et de Contrôle de Gestion (DNACG), or other direct sources. Revenues cover the 2009/10 season, the period for which financial information for all clubs is available.

There are many ways of examining the relative size, wealth or value of sports clubs. For the purposes of this analysis, revenue has been used as the most easily available and comparable measure of financial performance.

Revenue excludes player transfer fees, value added tax and other sales related taxes. In a few cases adjustments have been made to total revenue figures to enable, in our view, a more meaningful comparison of the rugby business on a club by club basis. For instance, where information was available to us, significant non-rugby activities or capital transactions have been excluded from revenue.

Some revenue differences between clubs, or over time, will arise due to different commercial arrangements and how the transactions are recorded in clubs’ financial statements; or due to different ways in which accounting practice is applied such that the same type of transaction might be recorded in different ways.

We have not performed any verification work or audited any of the information contained in the clubs’ financial statements or other sources for the purpose of the publication.

For the purpose of the international comparisons, all figures for the 2009/10 season have been translated at 30 June 2010 exchange rates (£1 = €1.2214). Comparative figures have been extracted from previous editions of the Money League.

Attendance figures are for the 2010/11 season and cover club’s average home domestic league match attendance in its regular home stadium. The average figures do not include domestic league play-off, European Rugby Cup, or other competition matches. In some cases, clubs have hosted some matches in larger stadia. Attendance figures in respect of these matches are not included in the averages above.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:54 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote: What would a marquee player pull in, realistically, somewhere around €4-500,000 per year?

Well at Ulster we have Afoa, Pienaer and Payne who could all be considered marquee signings - none are on that sort of money so unless you are going for McCaw or Carter or some such I reckon you could get a marquee signing for less.

And Wannenburg. I heard that Rory McIllroy effectively pays Pienaar and Wannenburgs wages!

by beshocked Wed 14 Dec 2011, 9:59 am

Bathite wrote:
beshocked wrote:No it shouldn't Bathite.

Though nice juicy sponsors do help.

The Italians could potentially become real powerhouses in the Pro12 with no salary cap in place. Italy obviously is much bigger and richer than Scotland,Wales and Ireland. Plenty of scope for growth there.

Treviso could potentially become an European giant in the next 10 years in my opinion. I wonder if I can get a bet that an Italian side will win the Pro 12 or HC in the next 10 years.

You joking in the first point or do you have a reason? Would be interested to hear why you would be against it?

I suppose it would just be a lot easier if we could pay everyone in foreign currency in offshore accounts! cough.

I really hope Italian rugby continues to grow, just think, if Stade continue to miss out on HEC rugby, is there potential for players like Parisse to move back home and play for Treviso? Wow, that would be great.

I would be against it but it would damage Saracens' ability to compete. Though obviously there is that selfish reason it would damage other clubs too. How would the likes of Newcastle,Sale,London Irish and Wasps be able to compete with the likes of Leicester,Saints and Quins if the latter clubs could pay their players more? You would lead to a permanent top 6 with no chance of anyone else breaking in. I don't want to see the more traditional stuffy clubs bossing the others around. Also it would make promotion much harder for clubs in the championship. I also believe in scrapping the rule to not let certain clubs promote if they don't have a big enough ground.

As long as certain clubs aren't breaking the rules what's the problem? thumbsup

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:05 am

Bath cant use the cap as an excuse.

They arent a top Jef side, so if they are spoending up to it that shows they arent spedning wisely enough.

Sure it may be the case that if there wasnt a cap their investor would be willing to pump in increasingly ludicorus amounts of cash till they did manage to assemble a sqaud capable of winning trophies but thats the whole reaosn the cap exists...to stop an arms race that bankrupts everyone in the Jeff. At the moment theres some chance of comepeting whilsts still having a club that isnt just based on finacial gambles.

The fudges to the cap for next season though refelct the need to stay comeptitive at European level and the funding levels the top clubs have.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:13 am

Didn't realise anyone was blaming the cap for bath's performances? And although I agree with you entirely, its not any different to what happened with Toulon and Stade and they haven't ruined the Top 14 or bankrupted everyone. In fact, this is the most competitive season I would say.

The problem where the cap comes in and its where bath have lost out is when it comes to renewing existing players contracts. As soon as there profile raises of the back of 1/2 good seasons, they ask for twice as much, so we can't keep them, which prevents contiunitiy and building a squad, which allows consistency.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:16 am

^^ which is why I respect teams like Tigers even more, because they have managed to remain at the top despite big names coming and going......Dupuy, Mauger, Westhuizen, Moody

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:19 am

My main issue with the way the Salary Cap is implemented is that a team with lots of England players - especially ones they have developed - has to manage their salaries within the same budget as a team who provides none.

I believe that teams that provide more England players should get a higher payout from the RFU and should be allowed a higher cap.

This would also mean that the basic cap should be lowered and that teams should be rewarded for having good academies even if bigger clubs pinch their players.

by beshocked Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:20 am

True seabiscuit wheeler. Bath are in my opinion buying players and hoping they click as a side. You got to have players with the right ethos, not just coming for the paypacket.

You might not think it when looking at the Saracens side but almost all the players have something to prove. They are hungry. Hungry players are exactly what you need. Obviously I think they must get a nice salary but you can tell it's not the money that motivates them.

Is for example Donald or Louw really that hungry or are they just here for the money? Is Lewis Moody really there for anything bar money?

When I look at the Bath squad I think to myself - what motivates them.

I know all about squads being driven by money.

Bathite who have Bath lost who you wanted to keep hold of?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:20 am

Bathite wrote:^^ which is why I respect teams like Tigers even more, because they have managed to remain at the top despite big names coming and going......Dupuy, Mauger, Westhuizen, Moody

Huh?

by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:21 am

Some of the top boys get around £300k at the moment, Castro one of the highest I believe

Castro gets £300k if you believe the rumours but Tigers are generally reknowned for being tighter than a ducks behind. They try to convince players that the top quality facilities coupled with the chance to regularly compete for silverware and be in the eye of international selectors are better incentives than pure cash. Doesn't always work and Tigers missed out on both Evans and Strettle previously because of this. The tendancy for the club to aim for good players that are having a tough time is also a common tactic, generally because they'll accept smaller wages (Tait and Allen being good examples).

To be honest I don't think they'd have renewed Castro's contract if it hadn't been for these cap uplifts coming through and the backlash from the fans. They released clubs stalwarts Hipkiss, Moody and Vesty because they deemed them too expensive. Might have done the same with Castro and then just looked to retain Cole but a lot of fans were unhappy with another stalwart who loves the club leaving. Castro being the best tighthead going also helps.

I doubt Tigers will be bringing in another £300k player though, they have new deals for Ayerza, Twelvetrees, Slater and Cole to push through. The club is a business and there is no wealthy backer, they just won't be able to afford to bring in another Aaron Mauger type whilst the stadium is still being improved. Having said that I don't doubt there will be some classy players brought in to increase squad strength rumours include Miles Benjamin.

Bath cant use the cap as an excuse

Bath need less big names and better scouts. The signings of Caldwell and Donald were pretty poor. Fearns and Low were good acquisitions but the neglect of their front row is really unbelieveable. Merely throwing cash at promising players like Attwood is a dangerous ploy as well. Luckily for them he seems to have the right attitude.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:My main issue with the way the Salary Cap is implemented is that a team with lots of England players - especially ones they have developed - has to manage their salaries within the same budget as a team who provides none.

I believe that teams that provide more England players should get a higher payout from the RFU and should be allowed a higher cap.

This would also mean that the basic cap should be lowered and that teams should be rewarded for having good academies even if bigger clubs pinch their players.

I wouldn't be surprised if any RFU payments to clubs for having players in the EPS is offsetted against their salary total to give a net amount against the salary cap.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:32 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:My main issue with the way the Salary Cap is implemented is that a team with lots of England players - especially ones they have developed - has to manage their salaries within the same budget as a team who provides none.

I believe that teams that provide more England players should get a higher payout from the RFU and should be allowed a higher cap.

This would also mean that the basic cap should be lowered and that teams should be rewarded for having good academies even if bigger clubs pinch their players.

I wouldn't be surprised if any RFU payments to clubs for having players in the EPS is offsetted against their salary total to give a net amount against the salary cap.

It isn't. And currently the payment from RFU is split equally across the clubs.

by geoff998rugby Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:33 am

Bathite wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote: What would a marquee player pull in, realistically, somewhere around €4-500,000 per year?

Well at Ulster we have Afoa, Pienaer and Payne who could all be considered marquee signings - none are on that sort of money so unless you are going for McCaw or Carter or some such I reckon you could get a marquee signing for less.

And Wannenburg. I heard that Rory McIllroy effectively pays Pienaar and Wannenburgs wages!

Wannenberg is on a lower wage than those other guys due to the fact he blotted his copy book a few years back.
The talk of Rory paying for players wages is idol internet chatter - it has no basis as far as I am aware.

by geoff998rugby Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:35 am

formerly known as Sam wrote: Bath need less big names and better scouts. The signings of Caldwell and Donald were pretty poor.

Caldwell has done well, would have been cheap - I don't see the problem.
Also hardly a big name as he was 4th choice lock at Ulster

by SecretFly Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:35 am

How many games has Donald played? The hangman's noose gets earlier and earlier in the cutthroat world of professional rugby. Which is unusual as a sharp knife would be more appropriate

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:40 am

Real mixed bag of views here, very interesting, one bloke thinks Attwood and Louw were poor signing, others disagree completely. I see it this way

Caldwell - not sure how anyone could question that, young bloke not playing first team rugby, got on the cheap, has added some real grunt and been one of players of season. Leinster fans were saying they were really impressed with him, didn't recognise him from old.

Wilson - signed as a young international prop to replace Stevens, just hasn't really progressed

Perenise - should hopefully provide the ballast at TH, good value, tons cheaper than the bloke who's shirt he stole at int level. Will take time to adjust to Prem, Tonga took 2 seasons, now look at him.

Attwood - young, english ambitious lock. If we bought an overseas, would have been slated for that

Louw - young ambitious international, been one of players of the year

Donald - needed a replacement for Butch, but couldn't afford one of the big names. Went for Vesty in the short term, off the back of some impressive Prem seasons. Jury is out

Key players we lost at key times (in response to whoever asked), Borthwick, Barkley, Stevens, Salvi, Maddock, Butch

Moody - wasn't a wise signing, one of my heroes, but just not good sense. Everyone knows he will give everything, but will only be for half the year and at £200k I imagine.

Not sure why this turned into a Bath bashing, i'm not blaming the cap for our failures to secure set piece ball this year! Blimey, I'm not silly.

Yes we have made some poor signings, but hasn't every team? And yes English players like Vesty, Hipkiss, Moody, Wilson haven't turned out to be great additions, but if we had gone for overseas, we would have got stick for that, in the same way that Sarries now do. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't!

by **rodders** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:45 am

Bathite wrote:
Caldwell - not sure how anyone could question that, young bloke not playing first team rugby, got on the cheap, has added some real grunt and been one of players of season. Leinster fans were saying they were really impressed with him, didn't recognise him from old.

Yeah he used to play for us. A talented player who lost his way over the past few seasons. Prior to that he was tipped for a big future. Played well around 2006/7 if I recall correctly when he had Justin Harrison alongside him. Good to see he's going well for Bath and clearly getting away from Ulster seems to have helped him mature.

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:47 am

Guess that you can argue that its not 'bad luck' that many of our signings haven't made an impact. Other teams have taken players released by other prem teams and moulded them into good players. Thats down to the coaching structure and thats the biggest problem I have with Bath. Back in the Meehan days, we picked up smaller profile players like Banahan, Salvi, Carraro, Maddock and they became really useful and key parts of our game plan. I just don't think the recruitment policy have a fit with our playing policy and tactics and thats where Sarries did very well under Venter, agreed

by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:55 am

I've seen Caldwell play 3 or 4 times this season and to be honest he's looked pretty much a 4th choice lock option. Got the brawn but not got the brains. Attwood seems to be a quality signing as he has the brawn and the brains and goes better in the lineout that Caldwell.

Wilson - signed as a young international prop to replace Stevens, just hasn't really progressed

At least offers you solidarity in the scrum unlike pretty much every other prop you have. Perenise is hyped but I've not seen him deliver. Maybe he will yet. Beech who you nicked off of Wasps is great in the loose but scrummages like a winger. Rather than going for an international 10 to replace BJ (who was pretty poor in his final season) Bath would have been better signing a smaller name and getting a beast for the front row.

I'm not Bath bashing it's just that some of the signings really could have been better. It's also getting annoying that you come round trying to sign every Tigers player who is out of contract.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:57 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm not Bath bashing it's just that some of the signings really could have been better. It's also getting annoying that you come round trying to sign every Tigers player who is out of contract.

Which of course we would never do Whistle

(hi GeordieFalcon)

by Bathite Wed 14 Dec 2011, 10:58 am

Sam - becoming the Tigers retirement home isn't exactly pleasing us fans either! You should love us for it, we have taken players off you who were at the end of their careers, freeing up space for the likes of Manu and Ford! You're certainly on the better end of the deal!

by beshocked Wed 14 Dec 2011, 11:00 am

Bath need to buy an entire frontrow

They would probably want something like: Mullan,Brits,Cole.

Unlikely to get any but even one would be a huge boost.

Mullan will likely go to either Leicester or Saracens though.

Brits if he does leave will probably be snapped up by a big French club.

Cole will probably stay at Leicester.

Bathite not necessarily Bath bashing - just constructive criticism.

I think it's difficult for Bath because for example Leicester and Saracens have been cherry picking the best players. E.g. Saracens got Hodgson (much sought after) and Vunipola (Saracens vs Bath), Leicester getting Tait,Young,Salvi,Brookes,Kitchener etc.

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