Welsh regional funding compared to others?

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16172039.stm

Cardiff Blues coach Gareth Baber says the Welsh regions need more money from the Welsh Rugby Union to hold on to star players

Each region currently receives £6million a year as part of the Participation Agreement between them and the WRU.

Is £6 million each from the WRU not enough, should the WRU not say we give you enough it's time you made more money yourselves from other areas, to keep hold of Welsh players?

Do you think £6 million each, is enough or should they get more?

Also how much does the SRU give the Pro sides?
The IRFU the Provinces?
The RFU give for elite squad players?
The FIR give the Italian teams?
and most importantly
The FFR the French clubs?

Ps I know this £6 million each is for the running of the teams and acamady and not just for salaries, but it is still alot.

I doubt the Pro 12 sponsorship money and TV money is close to the English or French leagues. The league had no sponsor for five years, so when Magners came along they got a long deal probably for a very low amount of money. I'd say RaboDirect are paying more for the sponsorship now than Magners ever did. If it gets a lot bigger in Italy in the future it could potentially be lucrative for the Celtic sides in terms of more TV money.

But I know that for Leinster and Munster their main priority is the Heineken Cup. This is probably due to the fact they make far more money from it as well as the fact that it's more prestigious.

To break it down, for any rugby business there are pretty much three types of income:

"Unearned" money - WRU £6m and RFU £12.4m (but it's still earned in a way through the Participation Agreement and the EPS Agreement respectively).

Collectively earned money - TV/Sponsorship/etc through ERC and, in the case of the English, PRL, for HC/ACC and Pro12/AP.

Individually earned money - match day income (bums on seats, beer, food, hospitality, etc), commercial (shirt sales, etc) and sponsorship. Also prize money, but that may also be collective.


What I don't know is how Pro12 collective money is distributed to the clubs, nor the ERC to the celtic nations. Do WRU own the welsh share of ERC and Pro12 commercial rights, and is it included in WRU £6m? If so, then the Regions appear to be poorly recompensed. If it's shared out over and above the £6m, then it seems fairer.

ERC money is distributed to nations 85% according to number of participants (presumably there is a weighting between HC and ACC participation, but otherwise is equal to each club in each competition) and 15% according to success (i.e prize money). IRFU have reported in the past that they receive about 5m euros for (usually) three HC participants, one ACC participant and a fair amount of success. So, probably somewhere around £1m/1.2m euros for an average HC participant.

The Irish situation still confuses me (apart from the fact that it works very well). If IRFU pay out 29m euros (about £24m) a year for players and management salaries, then I can't see how a funding of only £1.2m can be separated out. Conversely, IRFU seem to account for all the collective and some of the individual money centrally, in addition to the "unearned". Presumably, what I don't know is that IRFU distributes a big lump of the £24m to the provinces, which, as Geoff said, then is accountable at Branch level? In any case, it seems to make any funding (or salary cap) comparisons very difficult.

that is some difference if the IRFU have £24 million for central contracts and then help fund the Provinces, and the Welsh £6 million for the same.

I can't see the IRFU being richer than the WRU, both paying of stadiums, Wales get bigger crowds for internationals.

I suppose the £24 million must include the running and management of the Irish senior team, Wolfhounds, etc all the way down. I wonder how much of that is for central contacts and given to provinces. Best guess still £1.2 million.

Kingshu wrote:
England is harder, as it includes TV money which is performance indexed, and then payments dependent on number of England players.

It quite clearly states in the posted thread above that the £12.4m the RFU gives the PRL per annum is for player release. IT DOES NOT INCLUDE any TV residuals.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote: If IRFU pay out 29m euros (about £24m) a year for players and management salaries, then I can't see how a funding of only £1.2m can be separated out. Conversely, IRFU seem to account for all the collective and some of the individual money centrally, in addition to the "unearned". Presumably, what I don't know is that IRFU distributes a big lump of the £24m to the provinces, which, as Geoff said, then is accountable at Branch level? In any case, it seems to make any funding (or salary cap) comparisons very difficult.

A figure of £24m probalby covers the entire set up. Where does this figure and how it is distributed come from ?

At a Province level they are have seperate accounts and budgets they have to balance; but legally Irish rugby is one entity.
With reference to the money for NIQ players - it is discretionary.
In part I believe the money Ulster get reflects the fact we do not get as much through Central contracts.
If our contribution to the National team was bigger I would expect our help with regard to NIQ players salaries to go down.

I think it is only recently that the WRU may be earning more than the IRFU, thanks to Roger Lewis.

Kingshu wrote:
and anyone got any ideas about France?

I think I may have heard the sky sports panel mention that Racing Metro's budget was something like 29 Million, the only one higher than that was the budget of Stade Toulousian. I imagine at least 10 other french clubs are on budget of 20 million +. I don't know this for a fact though.

If you're as geeky as me, you can look at the IRFU annual report - page 64 has the professional game costs:

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Annual_Report_201011.pdf

I don't believe that the money quoted can be compared to the Regions, because it's all so integrated between Union and Provinces. However, some more snippets, all in Euros:

IRFU take over 9m from "ERC and provincial income" (includes TV and sponsorship?)

"national tours, camps and squads" and "national game costs" are about 5m, separate from the £24m (28,458,178 euros)

Elite Player Development is accounted separately, and includes Wolfhounds, U-20's, Academies and such-like.

So it looks like the £24m covers just player and management costs of the senior national team and the provinces. Management presumably covers coaches, analysts, kitman, physios etc for the national team, unclear whether it would cover the provinces, though. It may also cover more support staff, too.


WRU annual account states an allocation to the Regions of just under £15m - I presume that this includes TV/sponsorship distribution from ERC and Pro12 as well as the £6m, but it's not clear.
I can't find a cost for the welsh national team which might enable a meaningful comparison to the Irish £24m.