Does martinez have a legitimate claim to be p4p #1

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Does Sergio Martinez have a claim to be pound for pound #1?

Now before the onslaught of Pacquiao fans come and slam this post lets look at the facts.

Martinez last 3 opponents

Sergei Dzinzurik - (best light middleweight moving up)
Paul Williams - (self proclaimed most avoided man in boxing)
Kelly Pavlik - (recently schooled by the wily old fox Hopkins but still the man at middleweight).

Pacquiao

Antonio Margarito - (Coming off a year lay off after a royal beating from Mosley).
Joshua Clottey (No more than a sparing session in which he got hit a lot).
Miguel Cotto (Very good win but tainted slightly by the 145 catch weight).

I have no problems with manny as p4p number 1 after beating Hatton and Cotto, however his last two opponents could drop him in the standings in my opinion.

Now I believe Manny's true weight is actually light-welter and I don't think there is anyone in the division that will beat him there. He would also school Berto and beat Mosley. The only challenge out there is Floyd Mayweather who cannot fight at the moment. Therefore based on who Manny could potentially fight and who I think would win, I can see an argument for him being at the top of the p4p tree. However based on recent opponents and until these matches are made surely Sergio Martinez is more deserving of the spot?

People like Duran didn't have the benefit of 24 hour weigh ins, so whether you like it or not Pacquiao was always bigger than a flyweight. Duran didn't have the shame of losing to a couple of nobodys when up and coming or was that because of being weight drained?

imperialghosty wrote:People like Duran didn't have the benefit of 24 hour weigh ins, so whether you like it or not Pacquiao was always bigger than a flyweight. Duran didn't have the shame of losing to a couple of nobodys when up and coming or was that because of being weight drained?

What has losing a couple of early fights got to do with anything? The fact is Pacquiao beat a top 3 fighter at flyweight and a top 3 fighter at welter weight, whilst weighing in as per the rules. That is a big achievement even when you ignore the paper titles on offer.

Getting back on topic though, it took a run of horrendous opponents for RJJ to be knocked off his number 1 p4p spot, and although Margo, Clottey and Mosely aren't p4p material they are still genuine top 5-10 ranked fighters so it's not as if his record isn't improving at all.

He's just not this small guy that people make out him to be, he rehydrated ridiculous amounts in the lower divisions and no level of he weighed within the limit is going to change the fact he was always a lot bigger than the divisions he was fighting in.

imperialghosty wrote:He's just not this small guy that people make out him to be, he rehydrated ridiculous amounts in the lower divisions and no level of he weighed within the limit is going to change the fact he was always a lot bigger than the divisions he was fighting in.

He weighed in at the same limit as his opponents, it's a level playing field no matter how much it burns you up inside 8)

Doesn't change the fact he's not a small guy though does it, how many Featherweights end up weighing 144lbs in ring

He is now no smaller than a light welterweight. He was bigger in terms of weight than De la hoya on fight night.

5'6 guys at the lower weights are hardly uncommon, why hasn't anyone else made the jumps up as easily?

Who did he weigh 144lb in the ring against?

samevans1 wrote:He is now no smaller than a light welterweight. He was bigger in terms of weight than De la hoya on fight night.

Got any proof of that? Or do you just like making stuff up?

Yep, HBO telecast the night of the fight they weighed the fighters and siplayed their weights at the bottom of the screen.

That would be Marquez, most boxers fight at weights comfortable to them rather than draining themselves silly

Now also denying a well know fact that Pacquiao outweighed a seriously weight drained De La Hoya who didn't rehydrate at all, your bias towards Pacquiao is almost as bad as D4s.

If memory serves me correctly, on fight night; Pacquiao was 148, De La Hoya 146.

imperialghosty wrote:That would be Marquez, most boxers fight at weights comfortable to them rather than draining themselves silly

Most boxers drain actually, Pacquiao is now one of the guys who drain the least, whereas he was a bigger than average drainer before. Add that to the face he debuted so young and he was always going to climb weights, but he's a very small Welterweight.

So you've named 1 fight above 130lb where he may have outweighed his opponent on fight night due to no fault of his own, what about the other 5 fights where he has been outweighed?

I know Pacquiao came in at 144lb for Marquez 2, at superfeather... are you sure that's not what you are referring to?

He's now an actual Welterweight, most drain but not many drain to the extent that he did and i'm not going to ignore the fact he was so much bigger than his opponents until he faced Cotto.

He's an actual Welterweight in that he's probably close to the limit on fight night, but noone else in the division is. Pacquiao is probably like size of most LWW's. Mike Jones the Welterweight is 6 foot and looks wider than Pacquiao who is about 5 foot 6.

Its one rule for one but another for the rest

Hardly Imperial, were Pacquiao's opponents at feather, superfeather etc coming in on fightnight at the weight limit like Pacquiao has done at welter?

wow_j

If you place so much emphasis on being the "smaller guy" then you must rate Armstrong as the greatest of all time, due to the amount of weight he constantly gave away? Or Wilde who was miniature yet mixed it with bantams at regular times whilst being a small flyweight? Or Tommy Burns? I could go on, and on.

Point is why does it matter he's fighting guys bigger than him? Fact is he a fighter who fights tight on the inside and opens himself up to be outmuscled and have his energy sapped by getting into holds and being leaned on? No,, he doesn't.

I guess you rate Haye's win over Valuev as something of a stupendous result due to the weight difference as well? Point is that Pacquiao was expected to win all his recent fights barring DLH - Why? Because he's the more skilful fighter, much like Haye was expected to beat Valuev. End of.

What do you mean? Noones saying he is a Flyweight fighting at Welterweight but he's smaller than your average Welterweight. I'm surprised you'd even try to claim that most boxers don't drain like crazy. I've seen enough ring weights on HBO to know they do.

So at one weight he's come within the weight limit come fight night wherease every division before that we're told how he's such a small yet rehydrates ridiculous amounts.

Coxy

We've had this discussion before - my opinion is that beating a 5 top 3 guys at 5 divisions is better than beating 5 top 3 guys at 1 division (except for heavyweight).

Imperial

Against Marquez 2 on fightnight what do you think the weight difference was, about 3-4lbs? Does it say on the telecast?

wow_junky wrote:Coxy

We've had this discussion before - my opinion is that beating a 5 top 3 guys at 5 divisions is better than beating 5 top 3 guys at 1 division (except for heavyweight).

Well that's just a bit silly

Why?

Because you're excluding guys who can't weight jump. Someone like Froch has barely moved from SMW, someone like Calderon barely moved from fly... So because they've got a very natural weight and can't climb up the weights you therefore rank their achievements lower?

Basically you're handicapping them, which is wrong whichever way you want to try and twist it.

Isn't it impossible to beat five top three ranked guys in one division..?

BALTIMORA wrote:Isn't it impossible to beat five top three ranked guys in one division..?

Nope.

Not really, let's put it into perspective;

Pacquiao beat the following guys across 7 weights -

Sasakul
Ledwaba
Barrera
Marquez
Diaz
Hatton
Cotto

How many fighters who fought in 1 division have that sort of quality on their record? Not many I would wager because you just don't get massive amounts of quality at the same time in 1 division.

Baltimora -

I mean beating the number 2-3 guy, then beating his replacement on the list at 2/3, etc.

Again wow_j, you're handicapping fighters who can't move around the weights. I mean in todays day and age it's easier to jump from BW to SBW if you've had a bacon sarnie before the weigh-in!

We should never have had Calderon in our P4P lists as a result then, damn that little man would've been rated so much higher if he walked round 30lbs heavier and was able to get himself down to fly and then move through the weights!

So you are saying that even though fighter A has gone through the weights beating better people than fighter B, who stayed at 1 weight, he shouldn't be ranked higher because it's discrimination?

On that logic we should start including Valuev in the flyweight rankings, it's not fair to discriminate him just because he can't make weight!

No, what you're doing is handicapping a fighter because his natural weight is around that of the division he fights in.

The P4P list rewards consistency, the prime example being Wonjongkam who again has barely moved from min/fly. So by your reckoning Juanma Lopez should rate higher (currently 9th to PWs 6th) because he's won more titles in more divisions?

Sorry, but you can keep avoiding admitting it but you're handicapping on the basis certain guys can't weight jump. Hagler barely moved from middleweight, i guess we should rank him lower because he didn't move weights and only fought guys at that weight then!?!??! Or he isn't rated as one of the best MWs there's been and ranks highly on the ATG lists?!?!?


Please wow_j, just give it a break

No, you are missing the key point here Coxy.

As I stated, it is very uncommon for 1 person fighting in 1 division to meet a very high standard of opponent. Hopkins was fighting at middle for 10 years and the best names he has on his record from that period are Oscar, Trinidad and Johnson - and 2 of those are former welters! Provided the weight jumper isn't fighting complete cans he will almost certainly end up with a better resume because he is fighting against a much larger pool of opponents.

wow_j

No, you're missing the sodding point that you're discriminating against guys who can't weight jump.

How high do you rate Hagler? Or do you rate DLH higher because he won more titles in more divisions inc middleweight? Because going on your way of "ranking" that would mean you rate DLH higher.

And has it not occurred to you that other fighters, who are highly rated, may well move into the division giving the "divisional regular" a chance to fight another P4P recognised name?

Ranking is about the rated guys they're fighting and beating, not how many divisions they're jumping in the process.

It's not rocket science

Geez Coxy, can you seriously just READ what I am typing?

Provided the weight jumper isn't fighting complete cans he will almost certainly end up with a better resume because he is fighting against a much larger pool of opponents

History has proven this time and time again, Hagler is 1 obvious exception, but for every Hagler there is a Leonard, Duran, Benetiz, Hearns who fought across multiple weights.

Difference is most of those weight jumpers had a weight where they excelled which is for me more important than jumping all over the place. Duran wouldn't be rated so highly if he wasn't so dominant at Lightweight much like Benny Leonard.

Too much emphasise is placed on weight hopping, despite winning titles in 8 divisions and 5 divisions respectively, Pacquiao and Mayweather don't have the level of opposition that many one weight guys had.

Imperial

That is a good point, but it works both ways.

Would Duran be rated as high as top 10 all time if he didn't beat Leonard, Moore, Barkley and run Hearns close? I don't think so.

I'm not sure Barkley and Moore add much to his resume personally, he's rated so highly for his exploits over two weights

Lets be honest here Sugar Ray Leonard is rated highly for his skills and the fact he beat Duran, Hearns and Benitez at Welterweight, beating Lalonde added nothing to his resume either

How can you say Hagler is an exception when you've got all the heavyweights?

Ranking is about who you fight, not how many weights you jump in the process. Fear we're arguing the same point now you've bent your original statement so am off for this article

People jump weight too much nowadays and it is vastly overrated. There are too many divisions and it is too easy to pick up titles.

Particularly in the lightest divisions; where a big dump can take you from Bantam to Flyweight.

Duran ran Hearns close? You utter plonker!

samevans1 wrote:Duran ran Hearns close? You utter plonker!

I think you're the plonker for not realising he meant Hagler.

I'm supposed to read his posts for him, Scott? What are you, his lawyer?

No but why start throwing insults to someone who makes a mistake?

Scott give it a rest for once, your becoming like an overbearing mother

Foe me then please ghosty, it would save me from you misreading my posts too.

Because he insulted me first; read back through the thread.

He accused me of making something up which anyone with general boxing knowledge would know.

Or you could just stop moaning at everyone

samevans1 wrote:Because he insulted me first; read back through the thread.

He accused me of making something up which anyone with general boxing knowledge would know.

Alright mate, just I don't want this place to get into mudslinging like sites such as eastside are, people used to be more respectful.

Leave it to the mods to sort out then, simples

Fair enough Scott; I can see your point certainly.

I just didn't like him insinuating I was lying and then making such a basic error. Live and let live is usually my thing to be fair.

imperialghosty wrote:Leave it to the mods to sort out then, simples

Disagree, Ghosty.

Best we all sort things out ourselves when possible. The best moderation is invisible, in my opinion, and I reckon you fellas are doing a great job of debating this passionately while setting your own borders.

Imperial

Perhaps, but his win against Hagler is on a par with the Hearns, Duran and Benetiz wins though (IMO at least)

Coxy

How many 1 division fighters are in your top 10 / 20 /50 p4p all time? You include heavyweights if you like, otherwise you will literally have no argument against it

I agree with the concensus that all this weight hoping is rather secondary. Especially now as there are such a high volume of weight classes that coud easily be reduced.

Past history has shown that where less weight classes exist there will be bigger groupings of talent. Between flyweight and lightweight eating a large steak ca make the difference between one division or another which is frankly pointless.

The quality of the opposition is more important than the weight. This is not to say moving up through the weights to take on legitimate challenges is not worthy but weight hoppong for the sake of weight hopping - or worse, weight hopping simply in order to pick and choose opponents to suit you is not something that should neccessarily be appluaded. When you compare the weight hopping expolits of someone like Duran to someone like Pacquiao then this highlights the point. Duran moved up because he had dominated his division and sought bigger fights. Pacquaio in my view has gone up simply to pick and choose who he wants to fight, where and at what weight. Despite his massive jump from fly to lightmiddle I still consider all most of his best results at below lightweight.