Super Six...Your Appraisal?

So, with the final of the Super Six World Boxing Classic between Andre Ward and our very own Carl Froch upon us, what are your thoughts on the tournament as a whole?

There have been glitches, for sure, but I guess the initial concept of ensuring that the worlds best (with the exception of Lucian Bute) square off against each other has worked, giving us fights that in all likelihood we wouldn't have seen were it not for this venture.

Ben Dirs over at the BBC has written a blog giving his thoughts on the Super Six, and he doesn't seem overly enamoured by it all despite the obvious positives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2011/12/super_six_more_like_the.html

What are your own thoughts, and is this something that should be looked at with other divisions, albeit adopting a smoother process, possibly?

Well, I look at it like this, yes there have been a few hitches along the way which weren't forseen, but generally speaking, seeing the best face the best regularly in the SMW division has been awesome.

You would have wished something like that had happened in the 07-09 era of the Welterweights when the likes of Williams,Mayweather,Cotto's and such were about, not saying they would have bitten but if they had how fantastic would it have been?

My personal opinon, we need more of these types of things, with the best facing the best ine ach weight division, and now we've got the in my opinion two best SMW's int he world squaring off against each other, wish that would happen in a couple of other weight divisions...

The format was overlong and I think most people will have lost sight of the tournament's aims and objectives. Yes, we're getting a fight between two of the top three super-middles who will duke it out to be called the best (Bute notwithstanding) but who is to say we wouldn't have got to this position anyway given the sheer amount of time that has passed since the first round of fights.

Always said that it would have been better as a straight knockout super 8 (with Bute) in the style of the fantasy tournaments on this site. Quarters, semis and final to be staged on the same nights and all within the space of 12 months. Much less scope for injuries (although reserves could have been on hand) having an impact as injuries to losers would not have affected the tournament and there would have been real momentum towards the final.

Yeah that'd have been an interesting setup, superfly, and a cracking night of boxing to boot.

A kind of 12 round Prizefighter?

Think whilst obviously the withdrawals and Bute's non participation has been disappointing it has been worthwhile, have to remember it is a first attempt and like all things will need tweaking, potentially as superfly has suggested but in an era where we all get frustrated about the best not facing each other, any format which commits top tier operators to face each other should be welcomed with open arms.

Do you mean Quarter Finals all in one night and then Semi's all in another night?

Sounds GREAT, but there was a reason on the nights they had two fights they did them in seperate places, money, having all of them fights in one night means 8 huge purses and sorting all that out with TV companies and whatnot is absolute havoc.

I think its a brilliant idea although a flawed one. If an undefeated fighter loses, you would wan't to take a bit of time out and recover and fight a tune-up or 2, not put in with a genuine top fighter in the weight division, hence why some fell out of the tournament. I think the idea of an 8 man knockout tournament is a good idea also. The problem is getting all of the top fighters. Bute wasn't in the tournament so had more fights than ward ,froch and has taken over the #1 spot untill after the S6

Light heavyweight would be good: Cleverly, Hopkins, Cloud, sillakh, pascal and dawson

Light middle: Cotto, alvarez, kirkland, lara, williams and martirosyan

Light welter: Khan, Bradley, Rios, Maidana, Matthysse and peterson

There are possibilities for great fights and if it gets enough mainstream attention and not ppv the popularity of boxing could really improve

The bantamweight divison did it recently with darchinyan, perez, agbkeo and mares fighting each other and mares came out on top

Yeah he doesn't mean fighters having 2 fights on one night.

The heavyweights would be a good one, until we got to the final...

I have liked the Super Six. What i would love though, is for fighters to actually not have a choice. For example, if i were a promoter and came out and said, right, here is the 6 in the tournament: Mayweather, Pacquiao, Khan, Ortiz, Berto and Marquez. You will all fight each other in a supersix style tourny. Guarantee it will NEVER happen purely based on money or ducking or whatever. Now, as a promoter id simply say you WILL fight simple as that. You want to prove your the best, so lets put 6 TOP Light Welters/Welters in the mix, have the fights and prove it. Every fight will be a 50-50 split with the regular contractual agreements. That way you wont have certain fighters demanding more money or asking about random stipulations like gloves etc, It should all be governed by a boxing panel who run the tournament. Wish it would happen, but it wont.

I made my point to Mr. Dirs, who has been at his most Eeyorish about the Super Six. Really, I'm not clear what we want from boxing if we don't wholeheartedly accept the concept as a good thing. The best fighting the best, resulting in a generally acclaimed champion, after little more than two years. Bute is a side issue here - he has never given much sign that he wishes to leave his comfort zone, and will in any case doubtless receive the opportunity to do so from the winner of tomorrow night's fight. Whoever that may be, Bute will start second favourite against him.

Inevitably, injuries have conspired to send the Super Six on something of a detour at times, but it has never been derailed. If we had just decided on the quarter-final, semi-final, final approach, who's to say that one of those injuries wouldn't have occurred and delayed the whole process in any event? If all seventeen divisions were to launch something like the Super Six, within three years, boxing would have 17 undisputed champions, a lot of happy fans and, most likely a large number of new ones into the bargain.

Yep, Alex - what Fists said. The fights don't have to be in the same location but should be on the same night. As Fists said, a cracking night of boxing.

Captain, I read your comments over there with interest, you made some excellent points, and put forward a far greater assessment of the tournament than did Mr. Dirs.

Fists of Fury wrote:Yeah he doesn't mean fighters having 2 fights on one night.

think this was directed to me, (Not sure) but if it was I'll explain what I meant.

Like Dirrell/Froch was on the same night as Abraham/Taylor - now you would have to hold these fights in seperate countries realistically to generate the type of money, but with 4 fights on one night you would need 4 seperate coutnries, which is possible but could be difficult seeing as there's only so many countries that pay that kind of money if you see what I'm saying, so they would have to split the fights up.

A Straight knockout system would have been better, the whole round robin points system doesn't work for boxing, and was over engineered to mitigate against the unlikely scenario of a draw.
It then resulted in a overlong drawn out process, boxers dropping out being replaced.
I thought that this would ignite boxing, but didn't seem to capture the publics imagination. I hear they are struggling to sell the 7,000 seats for the final (which wouldn't have been a problem in Nottingham). The fact that the outright winner, still needs ti face Bute, is a bit of an oversight, seeing as he at the time was way morte qualified than say Dirrell.

Is the tourney system unfair to boxers outside the tourney? Ok Bute always have had the home support to earn a payday, but what about the others?

To sum up my opionin the concept seemed great, the execution poor, but would be all for an improved template for other divisions.

Problem with it is that Ward is a gold medalist and world champion and can't sell in his home country, Froch isn't quite that well known over there to people outside of the sport also which is a bit sad, the main problem I think has been, it hasn't really had a fantastic array of really well known boxers (those are in massively short supply however)

I'm not sure a 4 man shoot out captures the imagination, we've had the bantams going at it and that's not really caught on.

An 8 man shootout with all 4 fights happening on the same night, with 2 venues would've been amazing. Then the semis at one venue and then the final.

Not quite sure what you'd do if someone dropped out. I'd probably say to have two reserves lined up to fight on the undercard, and if someone drops out (like 2 weeks before the event) one of them steps up by way of a coin toss (for want of a better solution!).

Jeez, if HBO see that they'll come'a ringin' for my services.

Is difficult though Alex, most of the big names are either earning that much they would never commit to such a tournament or are at an age where they are not able to commit to such a tournament.

I think the tournament has done well, Froch is attracting tabloid press this week, something few fighters manage regularly. Is hard to assess how popular he is over here because he has not really fought here in an age, but would reckon should he win Saturday and get a homecoming fight he may surprise a few folk with how well he sells.

Can anyone say they haven't enjoyed it? I think its been a great idea.

Froch I believe is well known in Nottingham so I imagine that he could sell out big arenas, kinda sad that we're talking about what is probably with Haye and Khan losing there last fights our P4P no. 1 fighter.

It has worked to a certain extent and certainly captured peoples interest. Id be up for this again but next time as a pure round robin and no group stages

Steffan wrote:pure round robin and no group stages

The Super 6 is an experience never to be repeated. The best thing it has done is to highlight all that is wrong in boxing:

1) The biases from officials to the home fighter eg. in the Ward v Kessler fight, Froch v Dirrell fight were both very controvertial for different reasons.

2) The inequalities and silly concessions to some boxers - just HOW was Ward allowed to fight completely at home when all the others had to travel??

3) The squabbling over venues. The Froch tantrums after the Kessler fight, being in fairness told he was fighting Abrham in Nottingham then Sauerland pulling a fast one making it Germany then eventually agreeing to Finland. Again, Ward somehow managed to fight the semis at home too when he was supposed to travle after the first round.

4) The time lag between fights. Due to the protracted nature of setting up fights the tournament should have been over about 6 months ago at least.

5) The pull outs. Half the six pulled out making the comp a bit silly in the end with lambs like Allan Green purely making up the numbers and Bika not even allowed to enter the competition.

6) The fact it doesn't necessarily prove that the winner is the best in the world. With Bute being out, there's still enough people that think whoever wins tomorrow is NOT actually the best.

Note, I named SIX reasons why it should never be repeated.

Union Cane wrote:

Steffan wrote:pure round robin and no group stages

Well you know what I meant

Some good points made by Super D Boon by there. Infact iv changed my mind. Scrap it. Was a nice idea but will never work

To be honest D whilst there are some valid points there but nothing that can't be ironed out, the venue squabble for Froch Abrahams was just silly, if Hennessy had an agreement for it in Nottingham he should have known to get it in writing, can't blame the tournament for one guys incompetence.

As this year has proven questionable results happen not sure the tournament format is to blame, and given all the guys are pretty well matched is perhaps more inevitable in this format.

As to some of the others is hard to get away from the feeling this has been set up from day one for Ward to succeed and him never leaving the states is pretty shameful, in fact this could hurt the long term viability of the format more than anything else because if fighters get the perception they are being served up as cannon fodder for the next big thing the chances of them signing up is drastically reduced, and without quality fighters the idea will die on the vine. However still maintain there is nothing in there that cannot be ironed out.

Agree with the sentiments of your post super. But have to disagree that it shouldn't be repeated. Its a great idea and just what boxing needs and as Rowley has correctly pointed out it just needs tweaking here and there.

rowley wrote:
As to some of the others is hard to get away from the feeling this has been set up from day one for Ward to succeed and him never leaving the states is pretty shameful, in fact this could hurt the long term viability of the format more than anything else because if fighters get the perception they are being served up as cannon fodder for the next big thing the chances of them signing up is drastically reduced, and without quality fighters the idea will die on the vine. However still maintain there is nothing in there that cannot be ironed out.

I think this is my biggest gripe of all. Get the feeling he's "supposed" to win tomorrow so if Froch beats him up and it goes all the way then a nasty smell could be left in the air after the fight. Wouldn't surprise me at all given the sh** results that have been dished out lately.

I prefer the idea of simple unifications and often, rather than a protracted tournament where the path has been paved carefully for one particular fighter. Ward has not needed to leave his country at all. It sucks really!

Il be honest...will tomorrow really leave us knowing who the best SMW in the world is? While there is a good chance the winner may well be the man...lets not forget that...

* Bute was never in the tournament

* Froch still has that loss to Kessler

* Ward has never left America to fight

Im not trying to overshadow the winner tomorrow but I guess while Kessler and Bute are still out there they still have a claim that they could be the number 1

Super D Boon wrote:The Super 6 is an experience never to be repeated. The best thing it has done is to highlight all that is wrong in boxing:

1) The biases from officials to the home fighter eg. in the Ward v Kessler fight, Froch v Dirrell fight were both very controvertial for different reasons.

2) The inequalities and silly concessions to some boxers - just HOW was Ward allowed to fight completely at home when all the others had to travel??

3) The squabbling over venues. The Froch tantrums after the Kessler fight, being in fairness told he was fighting Abrham in Nottingham then Sauerland pulling a fast one making it Germany then eventually agreeing to Finland. Again, Ward somehow managed to fight the semis at home too when he was supposed to travle after the first round.

4) The time lag between fights. Due to the protracted nature of setting up fights the tournament should have been over about 6 months ago at least.

5) The pull outs. Half the six pulled out making the comp a bit silly in the end with lambs like Allan Green purely making up the numbers and Bika not even allowed to enter the competition.

6) The fact it doesn't necessarily prove that the winner is the best in the world. With Bute being out, there's still enough people that think whoever wins tomorrow is NOT actually the best.

Note, I named SIX reasons why it should never be repeated.

Yeah, you know what, I reckon we should just never do a boxing match again.

Super D Boon wrote:

I prefer the idea of simple unifications and often, rather than a protracted tournament where the path has been paved carefully for one particular fighter. Ward has not needed to leave his country at all. It sucks really!

In a utopian world would guess we would all agree but alas as recent history has taught us things are rarely that easy, in recent times Jones Dariuzs, Calzaghe Ottke and to say nothing of Manny Floyd have all been natural fights and one with the potential to be massive and they have failed to happen and I am sure a little thought could come up with several more. If a tournament format is what it takes to get the best fighting the best on a regular basis it is for me a price I am willing to pay.

rowley wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

I prefer the idea of simple unifications and often, rather than a protracted tournament where the path has been paved carefully for one particular fighter. Ward has not needed to leave his country at all. It sucks really!

In a utopian world would guess we would all agree but alas as recent history has taught us things are rarely that easy, in recent times Jones Dariuzs, Calzaghe Ottke and to say nothing of Manny Floyd have all been natural fights and one with the potential to be massive and they have failed to happen and I am sure a little thought could come up with several more. If a tournament format is what it takes to get the best fighting the best on a regular basis it is for me a price I am willing to pay.

Enzo Mac/Gunn rematch is a mouthwatering prospect.

rowley wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

I prefer the idea of simple unifications and often, rather than a protracted tournament where the path has been paved carefully for one particular fighter. Ward has not needed to leave his country at all. It sucks really!

In a utopian world would guess we would all agree but alas as recent history has taught us things are rarely that easy, in recent times Jones Dariuzs, Calzaghe Ottke and to say nothing of Manny Floyd have all been natural fights and one with the potential to be massive and they have failed to happen and I am sure a little thought could come up with several more. If a tournament format is what it takes to get the best fighting the best on a regular basis it is for me a price I am willing to pay.

So what could possibly be wrong with a Super 8 but a straight knockout from 8 to 4 to 2? Round riobin formats in boxing can't work. What you take a hard fight and lose only to find your next fight is another top level fighter. This is boxing it aint tennis!

I liked the idea from the outset & yes it hasn't been without its problems but I think they can learn from this & improve on it. As a lot have said I'd prefer to see an 8 man (with 2 reserve fighters) ko tournament with the fights in each round on the same night or at least within a month of each with 2 fights on the same card. I think stacking a card would help with regard to fans tuning in especially if it was ppv, maybe nesescery financially. As somebody has already said if this was done over all divisions & you ended up with a unified champ in each division boxing would definately be in a stroger position.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I made my point to Mr. Dirs, who has been at his most Eeyorish about the Super Six. Really, I'm not clear what we want from boxing if we don't wholeheartedly accept the concept as a good thing. The best fighting the best, resulting in a generally acclaimed champion, after little more than two years. Bute is a side issue here - he has never given much sign that he wishes to leave his comfort zone, and will in any case doubtless receive the opportunity to do so from the winner of tomorrow night's fight. Whoever that may be, Bute will start second favourite against him.

Inevitably, injuries have conspired to send the Super Six on something of a detour at times, but it has never been derailed. If we had just decided on the quarter-final, semi-final, final approach, who's to say that one of those injuries wouldn't have occurred and delayed the whole process in any event? If all seventeen divisions were to launch something like the Super Six, within three years, boxing would have 17 undisputed champions, a lot of happy fans and, most likely a large number of new ones into the bargain.

Fully agree with that Captain.

Read the article today and while Mr Dirs did attempt to pass lip service to the tournament, his general derisory tone was poor.

Of course, the inuries and subsequent pull outs have hampered it but Showtime, the promoters and the fighters must deserve the highest praise for their efforts to cut through the politics and make the best fights happen.

How can we not be on board with an attempt to make the best fight the best?

Let's be thankful for this and hope that more of tournements of a similar theme are arranged.

obviously had it's problems but on the whole has been good for the division and good for boxing in general. Tas shown how and how not to do such a comp in future. Will make boxing stronger in the long run. Bantam weight competition showed that they had learned from this.