British boxing 2011 - what went wrong??

Well lets be honest this had been a terrible last few months for British boxers it seems to just be getting worse and worse. We have had many of our fighters robbed for titles the Chisora fight was one of the worst robberies I have seen and now Froch has lost his title in a close fight with Ward that leaves us with just one world champion now who is Cleverly. There is more bad news to come Khan who as we all now lost to Peterson in a fight which he won imo has not been given an immediate rematch by the IBF. Imo this shows that they did want Khan to be champ there should have been a rematch. Khan can still appeal the decision to the State commission and the WBA which was the other belt so hopefully he can do this and maybe get his WBA title back or the decision overturned they did that for the Hopkins fight so why not Khan?? It seems like the rest of the world do not want British champs!! This has been a bad year for British boxers but on the bright side the only way is up for 2012!!Lets hope Froch, Khan and Haye can get rematches next year and the chance to win their titles back I think they can do it if these choose new tactics. We also have quality fighters like Brook who looks to be world class and should be a world champ and guys like Macklin, Murray and Chisora who have shown they are world class but harshly did not win titles these guys will get more opportunities next year hopefully. These guys all have lots to be proud of so lets get behind them for 2012! It is sad to see many people are turning on Froch just because he lost and saying he is not that good. This guy is a quality fighter who has done everyone proud imo he has always tried to fight the best and its just a shame he was not at his best for his fight with Ward but nobody can deny he gave 100% he just got the tactics wrong like Haye did. I hope people will not turn against him like they did with Haye I have read some comments on Frochs twitter page from fans saying he let them down and he lost them money from betting these are not real fans imo and Froch should not listen to them I hope true fans will stay behind him for next year where I think he can become a champ again. So lets not get to down about this year and look to the future and get behind our guys for 2012 and hope for some great fights!

Waingro, there is nobody turning on Froch. As far as I can see everybody is applauding him for giving it his all the fact of the matter is that he was beat in a very convincing fashion and I cannot see any way in which he beats Ward if there was a rematch. Ward is by far the superior boxer.

As for the decision to not overturn the result with Khan this is the correct decision for boxing and hopefully the WBA will folllow suit.

What went wrong?

2 of our guys fought in Germany where its near impossible to get the win. Froch didn't lose a close fight at all, he was outwitted all night. Khan fouled and couldn't adapt because he doesn't know how to. Barker showed the world that Martinez is human and gained a LOT if respect from the boxing community by doing so...

It's not as bad as The Ring make out.

How many of the guys who have lost this year have been expected to won their fights, Macklin, Barker, Matt Murray, Rhodes and Hatton were all outsiders and at least three performed with enough credit to prove they belonged at that level, also no shame for Froch in losing to a very good fighter in Ward on the back of an extremely tough run of fights. Only Khan could be considered a shock or upset and he is young enough to come again.

These things are peaks and troughs, no need for the knee jerk reactions, Brook will make and impact this year and hopefully Frank will deliver decent fights for Clev and Burns, if the likes of Price, Groves and degale can continue to improve and Gavin can get his head right things could seem a whole lot better this time next year.

Our fighters just lost fights, but to be honest with you, Burns performed wonderfully to provide an upset the Clev defended his belt, Brook has showed that he is pretty much world class the likes of Macklin and Murray were unlucky not to get decisions but were HUGE underdogs as were Froch and Haye, Rhodes, John Murray and Matthew Hatton. Just about all performed admirably and clearly giving your all is all we can really ask for.

The only suprise and dissapointment was Khan losing to Peterson but really even with that it was clear Khan tried his hardest. Don't really think there's something "Wrong" with this. The boxers went out there to win and entertain us, almost all did (Except for your best pal David Haye)

Oh and of course the most important thing, Tyson Fury is still unbeaten, thanks the lord for that! Hopefully he can inspire us all with his Hagler/Hearns of the Heavyweights type performances!

What about Burns?

He might be interim champ but he is still champ!

Adam D wrote:What about Burns?

He might be interim champ but he is still champ!

AlexHuckerby wrote: Our fighters just lost fights, but to be honest with you, Burns performed wonderfully to provide an upset the Clev defended his belt, Brook has showed that he is pretty much world class the likes of Macklin and Murray were unlucky not to get decisions but were HUGE underdogs as were Froch and Haye, Rhodes, John Murray and Matthew Hatton. Just about all performed admirably and clearly giving your all is all we can really ask for.

The only suprise and dissapointment was Khan losing to Peterson but really even with that it was clear Khan tried his hardest. Don't really think there's something "Wrong" with this. The boxers went out there to win and entertain us, almost all did (Except for your best pal David Haye)

Think the main problem was there were a lot of fighters in big fights that they quite frankly didnt deserve i.e. M. Hatton, Murray. Some Brits have been quite unlucky aswell such as Macklin and Khan

its not been a great year, but all our fighters lost their title in their opponents back yard or there abouts (i think....??)

lets hope 2012 brings a regeneration in this country.

i think khan will be champ again.
i think froch can beat bute to be IBF champ
Marquez may give up with belt so Burns could be champ
Haye can return, if anyone can beat Vitali it's him - its a long shot.

Chirosa doesnt stand a chance lets be honest - i'll be rooting for him though.

groves has shown he still has KO power against smith. hopefully he can make a dint in the vert talent rich SW division.

Clev isnt perfect but he's very good. He's skilful and busy which could trouble any top fighter.

apologies if ive missed anyone.

I dont think it has been a poor year for British Boxing at all. If anything, we have shown that we have potential world class fighters in Murray/Macklin and Barker. All three put on great shows against top level opponents and only lost by the narrowest margins (excluding Barker KO Loss). Chisora was absolutely robbed against Helnius but has now landed a World Title shot against Vitali early 2012. Khan has been a disgrace for his recent appeal to the IBF. He lost fair and square, and as stated earlier, he just didnt know how to adapt to Petersons constant pressuer having weighed in 15lbs heavier come fight night. Froch DID NOT lose a CLOSE decision at all. He was outclassed by a very, very good boxer in Ward. We have an EBU Champ in De Gale who has the skills to be a great boxer and will hopefully scalp a big name next year, we have Cleverly as a world champ at LHW and looking for a unification fight next year with the likes of Cloud/Hopkins etc. On top of that, we have a possible super fight next year between Haye and Vitali.........plus Khan im sure will fight Peterson and win convincingly. All in all it has been a bad year with regards to the fact we lost a few world champs, but that does not take away the fact we have had some solid performances from current and upcoming stars. Next year will be a great one if everything goes to plan such as: Haye beats Vitali (unlikely), Khan beats peterson, Brook gets a title shot, Burns fights a couple of big names ala Marquez, Froch beats Bute etc etc. Its not all doom and gloom people!

Looking at the big picture it looks as if we haven't done as well, but looking at british boxing as a whole it has been a great year.

The british title fights this year have been amazing and #1 fighters in each division have been found.

Jamie McDonnell-Stuart Hall
Quigg-Booth
Selby-Smith
Buckland-Sykes
Walsh-Appleby (brilliant fight)
Mitchell-Murray (fantastic fight)
Crolla-Limond
Woodhouse-Gavin
Lynes-Purdy
Lee-McEwan
Groves-Degale
Cleverly-Bellew
Fury-Chisora
Price-Dallas

Great fights and good match there that are all interesting and are good for britsh boxing

Khan will come back, you know that. Murray, Macklin and Barker have shown themselves at top middleweights and hopefully they can fight each other. Chisora has a title shot, kell has had a good year and can continue and Froch has plenty of options available to him

d260005p wrote:I dont think it has been a poor year for British Boxing at all. If anything, we have shown that we have potential world class fighters in Murray/Macklin and Barker. All three put on great shows against top level opponents and only lost by the narrowest margins (excluding Barker KO Loss). Chisora was absolutely robbed against Helnius but has now landed a World Title shot against Vitali early 2012. Khan has been a disgrace for his recent appeal to the IBF. He lost fair and square, and as stated earlier, he just didnt know how to adapt to Petersons constant pressuer having weighed in 15lbs heavier come fight night. Froch DID NOT lose a CLOSE decision at all. He was outclassed by a very, very good boxer in Ward. We have an EBU Champ in De Gale who has the skills to be a great boxer and will hopefully scalp a big name next year, we have Cleverly as a world champ at LHW and looking for a unification fight next year with the likes of Cloud/Hopkins etc. On top of that, we have a possible super fight next year between Haye and Vitali.........plus Khan im sure will fight Peterson and win convincingly. All in all it has been a bad year with regards to the fact we lost a few world champs, but that does not take away the fact we have had some solid performances from current and upcoming stars. Next year will be a great one if everything goes to plan such as: Haye beats Vitali (unlikely), Khan beats peterson, Brook gets a title shot, Burns fights a couple of big names ala Marquez, Froch beats Bute etc etc. Its not all doom and gloom people!

Mate I agree with you about the other stuff but the score in the Froch fight was 2 judges had it 115-113 this is very close if Froch had nicked one more round the fight would have been draw what would they have done then?? I reckon a rematch in Britain would have been fairest.

Waingro wrote:

d260005p wrote:I dont think it has been a poor year for British Boxing at all. If anything, we have shown that we have potential world class fighters in Murray/Macklin and Barker. All three put on great shows against top level opponents and only lost by the narrowest margins (excluding Barker KO Loss). Chisora was absolutely robbed against Helnius but has now landed a World Title shot against Vitali early 2012. Khan has been a disgrace for his recent appeal to the IBF. He lost fair and square, and as stated earlier, he just didnt know how to adapt to Petersons constant pressuer having weighed in 15lbs heavier come fight night. Froch DID NOT lose a CLOSE decision at all. He was outclassed by a very, very good boxer in Ward. We have an EBU Champ in De Gale who has the skills to be a great boxer and will hopefully scalp a big name next year, we have Cleverly as a world champ at LHW and looking for a unification fight next year with the likes of Cloud/Hopkins etc. On top of that, we have a possible super fight next year between Haye and Vitali.........plus Khan im sure will fight Peterson and win convincingly. All in all it has been a bad year with regards to the fact we lost a few world champs, but that does not take away the fact we have had some solid performances from current and upcoming stars. Next year will be a great one if everything goes to plan such as: Haye beats Vitali (unlikely), Khan beats peterson, Brook gets a title shot, Burns fights a couple of big names ala Marquez, Froch beats Bute etc etc. Its not all doom and gloom people!

Mate I agree with you about the other stuff but the score in the Froch fight was 2 judges had it 115-113 this is very close if Froch had nicked one more round the fight would have been draw what would they have done then?? I reckon a rematch in Britain would have been fairest.

If the fight had been scored a draw it would have been an insult to boxing.

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:

d260005p wrote:I dont think it has been a poor year for British Boxing at all. If anything, we have shown that we have potential world class fighters in Murray/Macklin and Barker. All three put on great shows against top level opponents and only lost by the narrowest margins (excluding Barker KO Loss). Chisora was absolutely robbed against Helnius but has now landed a World Title shot against Vitali early 2012. Khan has been a disgrace for his recent appeal to the IBF. He lost fair and square, and as stated earlier, he just didnt know how to adapt to Petersons constant pressuer having weighed in 15lbs heavier come fight night. Froch DID NOT lose a CLOSE decision at all. He was outclassed by a very, very good boxer in Ward. We have an EBU Champ in De Gale who has the skills to be a great boxer and will hopefully scalp a big name next year, we have Cleverly as a world champ at LHW and looking for a unification fight next year with the likes of Cloud/Hopkins etc. On top of that, we have a possible super fight next year between Haye and Vitali.........plus Khan im sure will fight Peterson and win convincingly. All in all it has been a bad year with regards to the fact we lost a few world champs, but that does not take away the fact we have had some solid performances from current and upcoming stars. Next year will be a great one if everything goes to plan such as: Haye beats Vitali (unlikely), Khan beats peterson, Brook gets a title shot, Burns fights a couple of big names ala Marquez, Froch beats Bute etc etc. Its not all doom and gloom people!

Mate I agree with you about the other stuff but the score in the Froch fight was 2 judges had it 115-113 this is very close if Froch had nicked one more round the fight would have been draw what would they have done then?? I reckon a rematch in Britain would have been fairest.

If the fight had been scored a draw it would have been an insult to boxing.

The fight was not a draw but it was close Ward could have had a point deducted for using his head or if Froch won one more round then the fight could have been a draw and there would have to be rematch somewhere neutral or maybe in Britain. Alot of the reason that British fighters are losing title fights is because they are always the ones that have to travel away from home this means they get robbed more and get dodgy refs just ask Khan, Macklin or Chisora.

The fight wasn't close. 10-2 is not close. Take a point away from Ward and it would still be a wide UD. A lot of reasons why UK fighters are losing is because they have been proven not to be good enough (except for the Macklin and Chisora robberies). Khan fight was close (I had him winning) but certainly not a robbery.

azania wrote:The fight wasn't close. 10-2 is not close. Take a point away from Ward and it would still be a wide UD. A lot of reasons why UK fighters are losing is because they have been proven not to be good enough (except for the Macklin and Chisora robberies). Khan fight was close (I had him winning) but certainly not a robbery.

Two of the scores were 115-113 that is close if Froch had done more early and nicked the first round or two then he would have got a draw or if the ref had deducted point of Ward for using his head then Froch could also have won or drawn. Froch has said he was not at his best he did not use the right tactics he started too slow and did not put his shots together well enough he was also away fom home. Ward should give Frocha remtch in Britain to show he is a true champ that travels. Froch will learn from this defeat like he bounced back after Kessler which was a close fight that he would have won if it was in Britain so this shows how important fighting at home is. Ward has always been at home this is not fair so he shuld prove he can win away against a quality fighter like Froch. Look at Ottke this guy was unbeaten but he stayed at home robbing and cheating other fighters and did not prove he was a true champ.

Waingro, the two 115-113 scorecards were merely examples of awful scoring by the judges, as well you know. The idea that Ward was only two points better than Froch the other night is, to be blunt, laughable.

But as I said, you knew that anyway.

Can't have your cake and eat it i'm sorry, I scored the fight 115-113 but on the balance of the whole fight it wasn't that close, Ward comfortably won 7 rounds while Froch shaded 5 rounds. You bang on about Murray, Khan, Macklin and Chisora being robbed but then take the judges scores to be gospel when it suits your argument, how does that work?

88Chris05 wrote:Waingro, the two 115-113 scorecards were merely examples of awful scoring by the judges, as well you know. The idea that Ward was only two points better than Froch the other night is, to be blunt, laughable.

But as I said, you knew that anyway.

Mate I agree tbh I thought Froch got schooled but my point is they were close scores so if Froch won one more round i would be a draw and there would have to be a rematch. Froch was not at his best that night he has admittd that so I would like to see a rematch in Britain where Ward has not fought.

So as Ghosty astutely pointed out, you're basically implying that a rank injustice on the scorecards is ok, as long as it's in favour of a British fighter?

A rematch really isn't needed, the scorecards which I agree with didn't represent a true reflection of the fight, take the Haye Wlad which lacked any real action was littered with close rounds shaved by Wlad but the scorecards which were correct would suggest a very one sided fight. Watching a fight and coming to a conclusion is far better than just looking at the scorecards, I really do hate boxrec sometimes.

88Chris05 wrote:So as Ghosty astutely pointed out, you're basically implying that a rank injustice on the scorecards is ok, as long as it's in favour of a British fighter?

No my point is that it was a close fight because the judges cards were 115-113 how is this not a close fight? If Froch won one more round it would be a draw so this shows how close the scores were. If that happened there would have to be a rematch what else could they do?

Now the Super six is over there is not many people for Ward to fight he has also been a stay at home fighter so why not give Froch a rematch in Britain where he can prove that the cards were wrong and show that he is a true champ who will travel? Froch has said he was not at his best so another fight will show if Ward can beat Froch after Froch has learned from the fight. There is not much else to fight Bute is a stay at home fighter who is not in Froch or Wards class and he already destroyed Kessler who is fighting someone else next year anyway so I think a rematch with Froch in Britain would make sense it is a fight people would want to see between two quality fighters and a chance for Ward to show he is a true champ who is willing to fight in his opponents back yard and a chance for Froch to show he can come back stronger and learn from his loss like Lewis did who won his rematches.

Have you watched the fight? If so you would realise the fight wasn't as close as the scorecards would suggest, if we take them as gospel then Chisora and Khan also lost close fights, so why use the scorecards for one fight but personal opinion for the others?

Yes I have watched the fight I thought Froch got schooled but the judges scored it a close fight so how can you say it was not close? 115-113 is a close score.

Lets not forget that Froch was not at his best either he has come out and admitted this he said he got his tactics all wrong so I would like to see a rematch with Froch at his best with a new gameplan I think he could win. People said he could not beat Abrham after he lost a very close fight to Kessler but tbh he schooled him and showed he could come back strong and learn and I think he could do the same against Ward.

The judges in the Chisora fight scored it to Helenius, so how can you he was robbed?

Froch came out and said he could not counteract Wards inside game, he saying he wasn't at his best proves nothing, fighters very rarely admit to be at their best when they lose. Make your mind up, are the judges scorecards all that matter or does personal opinion?

Mate the Chisora fight was one of the worst robberies I have seen how can you think Hellenius won that fight it was not even close Chisora schooled him?

As did Ward with Froch which fully proves my point, you juggle things around to suit your argument, end of discussion.

I did not say that Ward v Froch was a robbery but Chisora against Hellenius was a shameful robbery. Ward schooled Froch imo but the judges scored it close how was this a robbery Ward won the fight?

Good job you're on the wind up, Waingro, because if you weren't it really would mean that if you were any thicker you'd set.

Should the judges have scored it close if Ward schooled Froch is the point.

the judges were wrong in the Ward against Froch fight imo but they scored it close that is my point. If Froch won one more round the fight would have been a draw so it was close. How is this fight a robbery Ward won imo tbh he schooled Froch and there was no robbery. How is that like Chisora against Hellenius which was a huge robbery?

I can't actually be bothered debating with someone who's IQ is lower than my shoe size.

I have to say if you score the fight 115-113 then I dont understand how one could argue against Waingros point. What hes saying is if Froch had won an extra round then he would have earned a draw and if you scored the bout 115-113 then you are essentially advocaating that.

I appreciate the point about close rounds vs wide rounds being deceptive on the cards, but thats the rules of scoring and by definition 115-113 is close.

I dont know how that fight could be scored 115-113 myself. 118-110 was fair enough. 117-112 to Froch would be reasonably generous for me.

I gave Froch rounds 9 and 11 and scored round 12 even. Being generous I could maybe have given a split on round 1 and 5 and given Froch the 12th. That would be 117-113 absolute best I could do for Froch really without feeling I was being completely biased.

If one thinks the fight was 115-113 then surely one must believe the fight was close with only one or two rounds in it?

I rewatched the fight with sound off(really does help me concentrate ont he fight)and . . . Froch still lost comfortably, but 118-110 i think is a little wide. Ward won his rounds pretty clearly, with clean shots and brilliant technical ability. But Froch was more effective in last four rounds (IMO this was due to Ward knowing he had won it and slowing a little). Where as you might give Froch 1 of first 6 i think you might give him at a push 3 of last 6. I have it about 5 rounds to Ward personally. one thing i am amazed Froch still does is load up on those big right hands, i mean how many top tier opponents has he flattened in the first 4 rounds with that punch??? None.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I can't actually be bothered debating with someone who's IQ is lower than my shoe size.

Lol nice to see the insults when someone has a different opinion

manos de piedra wrote:I have to say if you score the fight 115-113 then I dont understand how one could argue against Waingros point. What hes saying is if Froch had won an extra round then he would have earned a draw and if you scored the bout 115-113 then you are essentially advocaating that.

I appreciate the point about close rounds vs wide rounds being deceptive on the cards, but thats the rules of scoring and by definition 115-113 is close.

I dont know how that fight could be scored 115-113 myself. 118-110 was fair enough. 117-112 to Froch would be reasonably generous for me.

I gave Froch rounds 9 and 11 and scored round 12 even. Being generous I could maybe have given a split on round 1 and 5 and given Froch the 12th. That would be 117-113 absolute best I could do for Froch really without feeling I was being completely biased.

If one thinks the fight was 115-113 then surely one must believe the fight was close with only one or two rounds in it?

My point is that this fight was not a robbery like Chisora got robbed but the judges scored it close if Froch had won one more round it would have been a draw so how is this not close? It is nothing like the Chisora fight that was a robbery pure and simple but who is saying the Ward fight was a robbery?

I think I need a lie down.

Does make you dizzy going around and around in circles doesn't it.

Waingro wrote:Yes I have watched the fight I thought Froch got schooled but the judges scored it a close fight so how can you say it was not close? 115-113 is a close score.

Lets not forget that Froch was not at his best either he has come out and admitted this he said he got his tactics all wrong so I would like to see a rematch with Froch at his best with a new gameplan I think he could win. People said he could not beat Abrham after he lost a very close fight to Kessler but tbh he schooled him and showed he could come back strong and learn and I think he could do the same against Ward.

The judges got it wrong. Simple as that. Had it been a draw it would have been the most blatent robbery since the great train robbery. A worse robbery than Chisora. Did you agree with the Holy?Lewis fight decision?

Look Azania it is quite simple, if a Brit gets the benefit of a poor piece of judging it is OK and we abide by the decision rendered by the cards, if he gets the short end of such a decision it is a robbery.

That's it Az bring up Lewis, haven't seen his name in the last 5 Waingro posts...

Prepare for the following:

Lewis was number 2 ATG heavy IMO
Chicken Bowe was too scared to fight Lewis
and lets not forget that Haye should have Lewis as trainer as he knows how to beat Klischko

rowley wrote:Look Azania it is quite simple, if a Brit gets the benefit of a poor piece of judging it is OK and we abide by the decision rendered by the cards, if he gets the short end of such a decision it is a robbery.

In all fairness, from a British point of view, it's a flawless system. If only the rest of the world could follow these guidelines it could make things a whole lot better for our boys.

To be honest 10-2 is being kind to Froch, there were two rounds that were argueably Froch and that is giving them both to Froch.

Waingro wrote:I did not say that Ward v Froch was a robbery but Chisora against Hellenius was a shameful robbery. Ward schooled Froch imo but the judges scored it close how was this a robbery Ward won the fight?

Chis schooled Helenius but the judges scored it for Helenius. Had the judges scored it a draw it would have been another robbery. Agree?

Alex I thought you could perhaps give Froch four max, not through anything he particularly did but more because Ward coasted in the last couple or gassed a bit depending on your perspective, but that is coming from the biggest Froch fan on here so is perhaps a lot more generous than many would be inclined to be, but even I could not find a way to give him more than four and suspect were I to view it objectively would not be quite this many.

Ha. This bloke makes me sound like the voice of reason and sanity.

I thought even in the last two Froch had to take the better punches despite being more aggressive, he just hardly ever hit Ward with anything.

azania wrote:Ha. This bloke makes me sound like the voice of reason and sanity.

And then the world ended.

From memory i had it 117-111, think that's what i had on the "Froch vs Ward live" thread i did.

Not quite sure why we're arguing, i mean the judges got the right guy winning by the right method. Why are we debating "ifs and buts" - Did they or did they not find Ward the winner by UD and that's all that matters, isn't it?

I had it 9-3 Ward, which was quite an easy number to come to. But i gave Ward the first round although it was close, we all know judges don't like 10 10 rounds and so could've given that to Froch, end of the day Ward won by the result result, wasn't like it was a SD or anything.