IRFUs central Contracting

Ireland Rugby has a central contract system in place. Would the fans care to explain how their particular system works. Amid fears of some of Wales' top players falling prey to the French vultures I was wondering could the WRU possibly ever mirror this? The introduction of the salary cap is not a viable solution IMO.

In particular, what kind of incentives are the IRFU offering their big name players to stop them from going to the big spenders in France for example? As it seems rare to see an Irishman play rugby outside of his country.

Sorry I'm not Irish, but interested in this. If someone could clarify the tax break the Irish players get then that would be appreciated. Cheers.

Yeah, I heard along the lines of there being a big tax rebate at the end of their playing careers?

From what I know, it essentially means the IRFU pay the contracts of certain Irish player.The number of central contracts handed out is 22 I think. The likes of ROG, BOD, POC would be paid by the IRFU but someone like Cullen, O'Leary and Murray wouldn't have it I'm not fully aware of the tax break but to get it you must stay in the country and play in Ireland for a certain number of years I think. The IRFU are doling out big cash to these guys, as they only hand out around 22. The IRFU also help fund the provinces and the provinces are not short of money at all. I think a tax break is for Irish sportspeople in general.

Someone else will be able to explain it in more detail but that's the basic details from what I understand. Hope it helps.



The barrier for it not happening in Wales would probably be a lack of finance.

The southern based players get a tax rebate from the Irish goverment if they retire in Ireland. Obviously this is an incentive for the older guys to finish in Ireland rather than go abroad to finish their careers. Obviously the Ulster players don't get this.

http://www.emeraldrugby.com/News/Blogs/Frank-Quinn/Retirements-and-Player-Welfare.aspx

In terms of the central contracts, basically we have 20 or so centrally contracted players and the rest are contracted to the provinces ....someone like Geoff maybe is more knowledgable on this.

Think they are cutting most central contracts by 20-30% and reducing the number of them to 18 in the next few years.

Why the reductions and why only a tax rebate offered to the Southern Provinces? Seems a bit unfair on Ulster and Connacht.

Ah, so the tax rebate is one incentive then. French clubs were rumoured to be after Heaslip, SOB and Sexton: but they are contracted yeah?

I think it could work in Wales, if our Regions were not as short of money. I guess filling the gates on a regular basis is a contributing factor as to why Munster/Leinster are not short of finances.

Morgannwg wrote:Why the reductions and why only a tax rebate offered to the Southern Provinces? Seems a bit unfair on Ulster and Connacht.
...

Connacht are a "southern" province in this context. The Irish government can't really pay a rebate on taxes Ulster players have paid to the UK government.

Morgannwg wrote:Why the reductions and why only a tax rebate offered to the Southern Provinces? Seems a bit unfair on Ulster and Connacht.

The reductions are cos the countrys broke. Connacht is in the republic so can get the tax breaks. Presumably its cos the tax players in ulster pay goes to the UK so the Irish government isn't going to be refunding them any tax. (i think thats how it works anyway)

I think heaslip and Sexton have one not too sure about SOB

Ah, sorry I thought rodders said the rebate only applies to the south.

If that is true Golden, Ireland losing their players to the French vulture clubs in the future is a possibility.

Sorry for the confusion, when I said southern I meant in the ROI...not the geographical south. Connacht players will get the Tax rebate.

The Ulster players will be paying tax in the UK so obviously don't get the rebate. Its an Irish goverment incentive to keep professional athletes in the country.

I'm not sure if the rebate may be getting scrapped in the near future, maybe some of the southern posters might know?

Certainly is. There was talk of Heaslip heading to the super XV before they signed their contracts. Id much rather that than France tbh they'll learn a lot more down there I would think. I wouldnt be totally adverse to some players going abroad (definitely not the 3 youve mentioned at once). Im sure it would be great experience for them and would hopefully improve them even more.

Im sure the success that Leinster have at the minute will help convince them to stay though.

Did Geoff say they've been cut to 20 central contracts? I'm sure he said Court lost his but Paddy Wallace got a 1 year contract?

In terms of the tax rebate it makes it difficult for Ulster to attract IQ players north or the border I think because obviously they would lose their rebate.

The tax rebate is beyond the WRU control obviously but central contracts may help the regions keep the top Welsh players in Wales?

Think I saw it on the Breakdown that they were cutting the central contracts but that's from Neil Francis so make of that what you will.

You probably meant Northern Irish players Rodders

My understanding of all the Irish qualified professionals is that they are all paid by the union with different levels (provincial, international ) and game bonuses all being taken into account so BOD POC etc would be at the top of the band. The tax break is that they get a rebate once they do not break their contracts ( hence due to tax rules and the 90 day residency rule you will find that stringer won't go over 3 months at Saracens. This means that with the rebate the gross would be less than other countries as the net gain to the player over their career makes it worth it..simples

All sportsmen get the tax break here in ROI (ie, jockeys, soccer players in the league of ireland) etc. It a player finishes his careerin Ireland can claim back 40% of the tax they paid on their 10 best years, so I don't think there is much of an issue of taking a bit of a break mid career and coming back. I don't see the break ending because it actually costs very little and definately worth it as an investment in sports tourism. This tax rebate is only what they have earned for playing (ie, other commerical income they earn they pay their full whack of tax).

Personally think, while the tax rebate is good, most of the players are emotionally tied to their province and Irish lads don't like going too far away from their families. The Irish Mammy rules over here.

Are you sure they are allowed the break sin.. I wasn't sure if they are allowed.

DOD wrote:Are you sure they are allowed the break sin.. I wasn't sure if they are allowed.

Yes, the crucial thing is that they finish their professional playing career in the ROI (which means that the IRFU has control of them anyway because if they don't want them to leave they can always tell them they won't be taken back. It does suit in some circumstances. Look at Leo Cullen, Jennings, Eoin Reddan, Damian Varley & Mick O'Driscoll who all went away and brought back valuable experience. The tax rebate was an incentive to bring them back as well.

Morgannwg wrote:Ireland Rugby has a central contract system in place. Would the fans care to explain how their particular system works. Amid fears of some of Wales' top players falling prey to the French vultures I was wondering could the WRU possibly ever mirror this? The introduction of the salary cap is not a viable solution IMO.

In particular, what kind of incentives are the IRFU offering their big name players to stop them from going to the big spenders in France for example? As it seems rare to see an Irishman play rugby outside of his country.

The tax rebate is a big incentive - but if you listen to the players themselves will say that they expect their careers to last longer because they are taken care of by the IRFU. Being successful is also a big incentive as well. Why would you want to leave a club like Leinster or Munster, particularly if its your home club. Its a bit more difficult for Ulster, but they do reasonably well holding onto their top players. Ulster benefits indirectly from the ROI tax rebate - it means that the IRFU can pay Stephen Ferris more than Sean O'Brien (who by the way, isn't on a central contract). Not that the central contracts means that much - the clubs have to come up with the cash themselves.

DOD wrote:You probably meant Northern Irish players Rodders

...actually DOD no I tried to chose my words carefully on this one ..I think I'm right in saying that any players who play for Ulster, regardless of whether they are living in NI or ROI pay tax to the british treasury because Ulsters stadium is in Belfast. I remember discussing it with Geoff a while back regarding signing southern players in terms of them not losing their rebate.

The other big thing beyond the central contracts and the tax rebate is that the IRFU have a preference to select home based players, therefore if a player choses to move abroad theres a fair chance they won't be selected.

Tommy Bowe, Simon Easterbuy and Geordan Murphy are the only players outside Ireland to be regularly selected in recent times. Generally its home based players who get selected.

Like Sin says there is a genuine pride in players to play for their province too which money can't buy.

But is it really the issue anyway? Afterall, apart from some more familiar Welsh faces going to France, have many in real terms gone?

How many have?
Is it a flood?

Are they really going for the money or are they going because they want to play in big sides, alongside big names, in what is regarded as a more tough and sexy championship? In short, do the Welsh players want to make a name for themselves, have more satisfactory memories when they retire, etc?

And about the money. Are Welsh players who are seen as central to the region and to the Welsh National side really getting far less than some of their Irish counterparts. What was Hook's salary for example, anybody know?

Just one thing rodders, im fairly certain court has a new two year central contract.

Sorry Stand my mistake, thought I heard he didn't.

SecretFly wrote:But is it really the issue anyway? Afterall, apart from some more familiar Welsh faces going to France, have many in real terms gone?

How many have?
Is it a flood?

Are they really going for the money or are they going because they want to play in big sides, alongside big names, in what is regarded as a more tough and sexy championship? In short, do the Welsh players want to make a name for themselves, have more satisfactory memories when they retire, etc?

And about the money. Are Welsh players who are seen as central to the region and to the Welsh National side really getting far less than some of their Irish counterparts. What was Hook's salary for example, anybody know?

Its like a black hole full of pointlessness....

Rodders..of course you are correct. But it would depend if they were contracted to the irfu or the Ulster branch

DOD wrote:

Its like a black hole full of pointlessness....

Except of course that a black hole has at it's centre perhaps the most perfect POINT imaginable. Don't be fooled by the blackness.

DOD wrote:Rodders..of course you are correct. But it would depend if they were contracted to the irfu or the Ulster branch

er maybe so DOD...I'll let someone else take up this one as I've already exhausted my limited knowledge on this subject.....

Can someone explain how the IRFU player welfare program works then?

Is it that the IRFU can impose a limit on the amount of games that any Irish Qualified player can play in a given season, or do they only have a say over the players that they contract centrally?

roddersm wrote:Like Sin says there is a genuine pride in players to play for their province too which money can't buy.

I think this is a major thing in Ireland, there are very few Irish born players who play for more than one province you just have to see the interprovincal games to see the pride and passion involved

The Welsh regions suffer from the fact they were established and at times disputed because rivals were drawn together

The IRFU can afford them.

They only have 3 teams which they give a crap about. And each of those teams are more or less governed by their Union.

The WRU can not afford them. They have a large debt and would have to spread central contracts among 4 teams, and therefore argue with 4 sets of owners.

Not that the central contracts means that much - the clubs have to come up with the cash themselves.

I thought the IRFU paid the central contract as a salary top up to the top players. They still agree a contract with their province but the central contract was like an icing on the cake to make sure that the big names were earning enough to justify staying in Ireland.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The IRFU can afford them.

They only have 3 teams which they give a crap about. And each of those teams are more or less governed by their Union.

The WRU can not afford them. They have a large debt and would have to spread central contracts among 4 teams, and therefore argue with 4 sets of owners.

I have to disagree there the IRFU is working to improve standards in Connacht but its more of a GAA region so its hard to attract young kids to the game but its slowly getting into schools and growing

marty2086 wrote:

I have to disagree there the IRFU is working to improve standards in Connacht but its more of a GAA region so its hard to attract young kids to the game but its slowly getting into schools and growing

Sure, but it's not comparable in regards international player numbers. The IRFU doesn't really have to keep them sweet in the same way they do the other 3.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I have to disagree there the IRFU is working to improve standards in Connacht but its more of a GAA region so its hard to attract young kids to the game but its slowly getting into schools and growing

Sure, but it's not comparable in regards international player numbers. The IRFU doesn't really have to keep them sweet in the same way they do the other 3.

All provinces are run by the IRFU its in their best interests to develop the sport in all of Ireland. It means more income and more players coming through

marty2086 wrote:

All provinces are run by the IRFU its in their best interests to develop the sport in all of Ireland. It means more income and more players coming through

I think you've missed the point. Which is:

It's a hell of a lot easier in Ireland to have central contracts.

Chunky, you can't blame the IRFU for players wanting to leave Connacht. Most of their internationals began their careers elsewhere anyway. What I would be in favour of is some of our younger player heading to Connacht(i.e. Ian Nagle, Dave O'Callaghan,Macken, Marshall) for a few years to both help them and help Connacht.

Central contracts mean that the IRFU do indeed pay a significant proportion of a player's wage and without it players have left like Bowe for example.

I thought centrally contracted Ulster players still had to pay tax on that portion of their income to the ROI, so it seems a bit unfair that they do not qualify for retirement relief.

My knowledge such as it is .

1 - All players playing for Ulster pay British taxes - they work, legally, in Northern Ireland.
2 - I believe the number of central contracts is being reduced to 18
3 - It is my understanding Court does not have a central contract for the next 2 year (maybe he did before) and that only 4 Ulster players do - Trimble, Best, Ferris and Wallace (in Wallace's case it is only for 1 more year)
4 - I think you will find that the Provinces pay the players a base salary out of their own accounts and the IRFU top this up with an additional salary (the central contract element). Essentially the palyers have 2 employees. This fits with what I heard when David Humphreys retired from International rugby
5 - The tax rebate issue in the south has nothing to do with Central contracts

Thomond wrote:Chunky, you can't blame the IRFU for players wanting to leave Connacht. Most of their internationals began their careers elsewhere anyway. What I would be in favour of is some of our younger player heading to Connacht(i.e. Ian Nagle, Dave O'Callaghan,Macken, Marshall) for a few years to both help them and help Connacht.

I'm not blaming anybody for anything. Just saying that it's easier for Ireland. Because they have less to worry about.

Chunky theres no way you can say the IRFU don't care about Connacht. They've been subsidising them for years. As Marty has said Connacht is not a traditional rugby area and they have a much smaller player pool and crowd numbers.

I think they have made huge strides in recent seasons so fair play to the IRFU for sticking with them when they had the option of helping fund the London Irish youth set up a few years ago and using it to develop Irish players.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The IRFU can afford them.

They only have 3 teams which they give a crap about. And each of those teams are more or less governed by their Union.

The WRU can not afford them. They have a large debt and would have to spread central contracts among 4 teams, and therefore argue with 4 sets of owners.

There isn't any reason why a Connacht player would not have a central contract if they were considered good enough.

Anyway 3 or 4 is not the crucial point. The reason it would be a struggle in Wales is organizational not financial.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Anyway 3 or 4 is not the crucial point. The reason it would be a struggle in Wales is organizational not financial.

Not financial?

So there's plenty of money flying about to pay these players that are off to France, but because of some buff old traditions and lines drawn on a map it can't happen?

Don't think so. It is very much fianncial. As everything in Welsh rugby is.

Does Welsh rugby as a whole have significantly less money coming in than Irish rugby ?

If the answer is no then the problem is not, primarily, a financial one

geoff998rugby wrote:Does Welsh rugby as a whole have significantly less money coming in than Irish rugby ?

If the answer is no then the problem is not, primarily, a financial one

It's where the Union is prepared to spend it. Roger Lewis is getting paid circa £330k PA to reduce the debt. Not to keep the regions happy.

The truth is it is ALWAYS 'easier' when you are winning.

Money floods in from numerous sources and you can call the shots more on the price of sponsorship etc.

So winning is the key. And that can happen without the big money, as it has to happen anyway before the big money boys are attracted to what they see. Some here think it works the other way round, but it doesn't.

Welsh regions have to start winning meaningful competitions, and let's face it, Europe doesn't give a damn about our nice little Pro 12 gig. It's tough to win when times are hard and crowds are low but that's the tough job that has to be done. On the field - away from the accountants and agents and sugardaddies and WRU debt reducers - on the field.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Does Welsh rugby as a whole have significantly less money coming in than Irish rugby ?

If the answer is no then the problem is not, primarily, a financial one

It's where the Union is prepared to spend it. Roger Lewis is getting paid circa £330k PA to reduce the debt. Not to keep the regions happy.

Exactly you have the money you don't spend it so wisely - so its organizational.

SecretFly wrote:

Welsh regions have to start winning meaningful competitions, and let's face it, Europe doesn't give a damn about our nice little Pro 12 gig.

How are they supposed to win anything of note when they have barely got the squads to make the top 4 of the Pro 12?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Welsh regions have to start winning meaningful competitions, and let's face it, Europe doesn't give a damn about our nice little Pro 12 gig.

How are they supposed to win anything of note when they have barely got the squads to make the top 4 of the Pro 12?

BULL. You could say the same about Irish provinces in the days before winning started. Winning starts from somewhere and it doesn't start with having a top notch squad of players who have ALREADY proven themselves in Europe or other world leagues. You only get those or attract them by winning in the first place - geddih?

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get on with the hard work of trying to win in empty stadiums and using the player resources you have (which looking from the outside in aren't such a shoddy bunch, to tell the truth) Get better coaches than some of the also-rans already propping up the titles. And just basically stop moaning about the bookwork and start putting body and soul into actually carrying off the many games that realistically 'could have been won'. The game, the field, the play.