IRFUs central Contracting

First topic message reminder :

Ireland Rugby has a central contract system in place. Would the fans care to explain how their particular system works. Amid fears of some of Wales' top players falling prey to the French vultures I was wondering could the WRU possibly ever mirror this? The introduction of the salary cap is not a viable solution IMO.

In particular, what kind of incentives are the IRFU offering their big name players to stop them from going to the big spenders in France for example? As it seems rare to see an Irishman play rugby outside of his country.

The Irish do ok with, by your own omission, the same income.

Baiscally get your act together and you will succeed !

On the tax rebate;

It is only for professional athletes and refers to;
- Athlete
- Badminton Player
- Boxer
- Cyclist
- Footballer
- Golfer
- Jockey
- Motor Racing Driver
- Rugby Player
- Squash Player
- Swimmer
- Tennis Player

Must retire in Ireland after 2002. Must look for the rebate in the year of retirement.

Can take any 10 years from 1992 until retirement to get the rebate.

Gets 40% rebate on income earned in those years.

Income is only salary/bonuses/wages/prizemoney directly from the sport. It does not include sponsorship/ads/interviews/mags money/image rights.


If people want to read the nitty-gritty;
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-15/15-01-36.pdf?download=true

Geoff and secretfly! stop encouraging the feckers! They wrecked our 6N and RWC for feck sake! The last thing we need is to help them sort their flipping infrastructure out!

It's bad enough that they copied us with the spala ice chambers.....

Sorry Rodders, won't happen again Sir. And I know the feeling. I'm even mean spirited enough to hate the idea of Bradley and Conor O'Shea giving Edinburgh and Quins the benefit of their Irish Heieneken Cup minds.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Welsh regions have to start winning meaningful competitions, and let's face it, Europe doesn't give a damn about our nice little Pro 12 gig.

How are they supposed to win anything of note when they have barely got the squads to make the top 4 of the Pro 12?

BULL. You could say the same about Irish provinces in the days before winning started. Winning starts from somewhere and it doesn't start with having a top notch squad of players who have ALREADY proven themselves in Europe or other world leagues. You only get those or attract them by winning in the first place - geddih?

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get on with the hard work of trying to win in empty stadiums and using the player resources you have (which looking from the outside in aren't such a shoddy bunch, to tell the truth) Get better coaches than some of the also-rans already propping up the titles. And just basically stop moaning about the bookwork and start putting body and soul into actually carrying off the many games that realistically 'could have been won'. The game, the field, the play.

Agree entirely with this.

The vast majority of money in the European game comes from the 6 Nations and other international tests. So Welsh rugby earns a similar amount to Irish rugby. Plus the Welsh regions have sugar daddy owners who put more money in than they ever get out don't they?

Maybe the dominant performances in Europe of Munster and Leinster makes you imagine that Irish rugby is rolling in cash. But it's not. See the outrageous ticket prices the IRFU tried to charge when Lansdowne opened, and also the reduction in central contracts and wage cuts. The IRFU is not as financially feiced as the SRU. But it's not rolling in cash either.

I think the tax rebate is a huge plus for keeping players in Ireland. They have to finish their career here to get it. And they have to have played 10 years to maximize it. It leaves them only a small window in their career to leave, come back and still get it. And if they leave there's no guarantee they'll play for Ireland or even get signed by an Irish team again. The IRFU are quite strict about these things.

It's obvious it has an impact, because Ulster have lost a few players to foreign teams, but Leinster and Munster have lost almost none, unless they wanted to unload someone to another team.

SecretFly wrote:

BULL. You could say the same about Irish provinces in the days before winning started. Winning starts from somewhere and it doesn't start with having a top notch squad of players who have ALREADY proven themselves in Europe or other world leagues. You only get those or attract them by winning in the first place - geddih?

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get on with the hard work of trying to win in empty stadiums and using the player resources you have (which looking from the outside in aren't such a shoddy bunch, to tell the truth) Get better coaches than some of the also-rans already propping up the titles. And just basically stop moaning about the bookwork and start putting body and soul into actually carrying off the many games that realistically 'could have been won'. The game, the field, the play.

You have absolutely no idea about the structure of Welsh rugby.

It can't be done as it currently stands. This is a very interesting thread. I had no idea how little was understood about the Welsh regions outside Wales.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

BULL. You could say the same about Irish provinces in the days before winning started. Winning starts from somewhere and it doesn't start with having a top notch squad of players who have ALREADY proven themselves in Europe or other world leagues. You only get those or attract them by winning in the first place - geddih?

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get on with the hard work of trying to win in empty stadiums and using the player resources you have (which looking from the outside in aren't such a shoddy bunch, to tell the truth) Get better coaches than some of the also-rans already propping up the titles. And just basically stop moaning about the bookwork and start putting body and soul into actually carrying off the many games that realistically 'could have been won'. The game, the field, the play.

You have absolutely no idea about the structure of Welsh rugby.

It can't be done as it currently stands. This is a very interesting thread. I had no idea how little was understood about the Welsh regions outside Wales.

I wouldn't profess to know the structure of Welsh rugby. I'd hazard a guess that it even has you reeling from the complexity at times. Correct?

But that situation is of its own making, and a bunch of very stubborn, backward thinking traditionalists who always seem to throw the ancient gaze towards the tinted spec horizons of bygone days and the glorious clubs. Well yeah, but it's the past and as long as old traditionalists moan about not feeling their heritage can allow them to go support a 'region', then Welsh 'structures' will continue to be a muddle of confusion. It's not a structure by the way, it's a philosophy and a problem that needs sorting. That is to say, some mature people need to start acting that way and stop crying into the cornflakes about the old rivalries and the halcyon days of the 70s.

BUT...all of that, has absolutely nothing - nothing - to do with Scarlets losing twice to Munster, home and away, in games they could have won with a little more bloody minded intent. That's the practicality that exists between reality on the field and reams of information about budgets and structure. Scarlets have the players and the skills and the stamina and the guile to have won at least one of those games - the reasons they dind't has nothing to do with 'structure' of Welsh rugby and everything to do with player coaching and tactics. We're back to what happens on the field, Chunky. By the way, my captial words are not me shouting, just trying to suggest emphasis.

But the bottom line is you have the same money in Wales as in Ireland but Ireland have success at regional level which Wales can't match.

Therefore it is a logical conclusion to make that Wales have the solution in their own hands.

Feckless Rogue wrote: It's obvious it has an impact, because Ulster have lost a few players to foreign teams, but Leinster and Munster have lost almost none, unless they wanted to unload someone to another team.

Which Ulster player has left because of financial reasons - I can think of none.

Geoff, isn't money the reason people think Botha left?

Botha left because he hand shaked on a deal with Humphreys and then Munster offered more. Botha came back and said can you match Munsters deal.
Humphreys said he could but wouldn't.
Humhreys was annoyed that Botha didn't stick by his original agreement.

I heard this, in summary, from his own mouth - he was, for him, quite angry.

You have to say the Botha thing has worked out well for all parties concerned....we've brought in a Afoa (hopefully followed by his best pal ) whos been awesome and BJ has been a revelation for Munster....happy times all round !

SecretFly wrote:

BUT...all of that, has absolutely nothing - nothing - to do with Scarlets losing twice to Munster, home and away, in games they could have won with a little more bloody minded intent. That's the practicality that exists between reality on the field and reams of information about budgets and structure. Scarlets have the players and the skills and the stamina and the guile to have won at least one of those games - the reasons they dind't has nothing to do with 'structure' of Welsh rugby.

Of coruse not. But none of the Welsh regions can win the Heineken Cup.

2 of the Irish regions can.

Look at the bigger picture.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
But none of the Welsh regions can win the Heineken Cup.

Why not Chunky? The Ospreys looked like genuine contenders for a while there. Llanelli were in the SF in 2007(?). Cardiff are still in with a shout of a QF this year. Munster and Leinster didn't get were they are overnight, there were years of failures and underperformance to get to the top. There is no reason why the regions can't be successful in europe.

roddersm wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
But none of the Welsh regions can win the Heineken Cup.

Why not Chunky? The Ospreys looked like genuine contenders for a while there. Llanelli were in the SF in 2007(?). Cardiff are still in with a shout of a QF this year. Munster and Leinster didn't get were they are overnight, there were years of failures and underperformance to get to the top. There is no reason why the regions can't be successful in europe.

The chances are gone now.

To win it these days you need 3 or 4 massive overseas signings. On form and class players to compete with the likes of Toulouse, Leinster, Leicester, Clermont.

None of the regions have anything like those squads. Because there is no money domestic Welsh rugby. Because it is not viable.

When Leinster lost Contepomi, the doosayers were saying well that's it now for Leinster. When they lost Elsom, the doomsayers were saying well, that's one win and the only win for Leinster. When they lost Nathan Hines, the doomsayers were mumbling that we'll be found out now (and that might happen yet when the chips are down!!!)

But you see the sequence? There is always the player you think you either need or can't function without and yet the truth remains that everyone, everyone is expendable. You can always find a solution. And the truth is that I repeat, Scarlets were good enough to win against Munster, Munster are still good enough to drag a Heineken Cup win out of this year (difficult but they have the potential) So where does that leave Scarlets? A few smart coaching decisions away from a final. It's very small percentages for Welsh teams, they have all the raw resources required, something is just going wrong between game blueprint and game day.

Geoff, sorry I just remembered a few very good players leaving Ulster like Bowe and Best. I have no idea if the reasons were financial actually. Maybe they weren't. But the tax rebate in the republic is an extra weight in favour of staying, that Ulster players don't have.

Cardiff only missed out on a HEC final by a stupid penalty shootout. I remember Ospreys missing a last minute drop goal to beat Biarritz away in a quarter final. When a Welsh region performs well in the HEC they can compete with anyone. They've fallen short by very small margins.

The Irish, with very similar resources have 5 Heineken Cup wins. The only reason the Welsh have no HEC wins is mismanagement of the regions.

SecretFly wrote:But is it really the issue anyway? Afterall, apart from some more familiar Welsh faces going to France, have many in real terms gone?

How many have?
Is it a flood?

Are they really going for the money or are they going because they want to play in big sides, alongside big names, in what is regarded as a more tough and sexy championship? In short, do the Welsh players want to make a name for themselves, have more satisfactory memories when they retire, etc?

And about the money. Are Welsh players who are seen as central to the region and to the Welsh National side really getting far less than some of their Irish counterparts. What was Hook's salary for example, anybody know?

It is not such a big issue now, but in the near future, say the end of this year it could well be. Hook, Byrne, Phillips gone. Phillips is the only one with a realistic chance of getting selected in the 6 Nations. Craig Mitchell who plays in England too. He would have been handy for any of our 4 teams.

My guess is it is mainly the money. As most have gone or will be going towards the end of their career when they still have only a few good playing years left i:e, 30. No Welsh team will be able to offer what the French offer for the forseeable future. My guess though, is every player in the world would like to play in the South of France at some point. Even Carter got tempted.

If our players had some emotional attatchment to their teams, which is what the Irish guys have with their Provinces, then it would probably be a lot easier to keep them where we want them. Also filling the stadiums on a regular basis as the Irish can do would contribute a lot to the financial side of things.

I'm not sure what your boys are on, but my guess is Hooky would have been on 150-180 grand a year at the Ospreys. They're the only team who could offer those wages to the majority of their squad. Mike Phillips was on 180 during his time there.

I think a similar central contract system is possible, only if offered to around 20 players though and build from there. Adam and Geth, two guys who look set to make the next world cup are out of contract by the end of this season and we would want to do everything we can to keep them in Wales. I assume the WRU will be enforcing a stricter "Gatlands Law" aswell in the near future, as this would help matters.

And to all the rest, thank you for the responses!

Feckless Rogue wrote:The vast majority of money in the European game comes from the 6 Nations and other international tests. So Welsh rugby earns a similar amount to Irish rugby. Plus the Welsh regions have sugar daddy owners who put more money in than they ever get out don't they?

Maybe the dominant performances in Europe of Munster and Leinster makes you imagine that Irish rugby is rolling in cash. But it's not. See the outrageous ticket prices the IRFU tried to charge when Lansdowne opened, and also the reduction in central contracts and wage cuts. The IRFU is not as financially feiced as the SRU. But it's not rolling in cash either.

I think the tax rebate is a huge plus for keeping players in Ireland. They have to finish their career here to get it. And they have to have played 10 years to maximize it. It leaves them only a small window in their career to leave, come back and still get it. And if they leave there's no guarantee they'll play for Ireland or even get signed by an Irish team again. The IRFU are quite strict about these things.

It's obvious it has an impact, because Ulster have lost a few players to foreign teams, but Leinster and Munster have lost almost none, unless they wanted to unload someone to another team.

Our international ticket prices and merchandise prices have always been ridiculously high. It does not stop the people from buying though. I would guess that the high prices are only temp at the new Aviva Stadium? I hate it when staidums and arenas get named after corporations btw. Given the situation in Ireland, it seems perfectly logical and normal for the reduction in Rugby. Your government has a few other sports to help fund right?

Munster and Leinster are European forces. There are not many who would want to leave. Dougie and Isa seem to be right at home. Ospreys were able to lure Bowe away with a big wage, but probably similar to what the big 2 Provinces could have offered him. There are 2 sugar daddys, the well known Cuddy group at the Ospreys and I believe Blues to have one too. I am not sure if the Scarlets or Dragons have one. However like you mention there is not much incentive for them to pile money in and just lose out. There is no passion about the Regions. Changing their names and calling them what they are (Superclubs) might make a few feel less alienated. The old clubs are never coming back and that is a good thing.

I though Bowe took a pay cut to go to the Ospreys or at least Ulster offered him a better deal to stay? I'm pretty sure money wasn't the motivation for his move.

Bowe did indeed get offered the same money by Ulster as he was offered by Ospreys - he left because the club was a mess.

Best was kicked out
Wilson left under a cloud

None were money driven departures

Chunky Norwich wrote: To win it these days you need 3 or 4 massive overseas signings. On form and class players to compete with the likes of Toulouse, Leinster, Leicester, Clermont.

None of the regions have anything like those squads. Because there is no money domestic Welsh rugby. Because it is not viable.

Sorry this is bunk.

Look at the the Leinster team - only Nacewa is a top player who is NIQ and even he didn't came a massive overseas signing.
At Munster there is only Howlett and Botha who fits that description.

Those provinces have achieved through excellent academies, good management and excellent support.
At Ulster we truly believe we can emulate that and are taking strides in the right direction.

The salaries paid out at Cardiff and Ospreys are no less than the 3 senior Irish provinces.

Just maybe the Welsh youngsters aren't as good, just maybe the managment isn't as good, just maybe the foreigners they have brought in aren't as good, just maybe the Welsh public are as supportive of their team as the Irish are.

The Welsh can achieve what the Irish are achieving if they get their act together, organize and believe. The money is there if they use it wisely.

However it seems they would rather wallow in denial and self pity than get up and go.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Just maybe the Welsh youngsters aren't as good,

Doesn't this blow that out of the water? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/13916366.stm

geoff998rugby wrote:
However it seems they would rather wallow in denial and self pity than get up and go.

Who/what? Explain?

1 thing to consider is Connacht have a far lesser budget than the other 3 Provinces so for example if we stripped the Dragons of their better players and gave an extra £1.5m from their £6m budget to their other 3 regions we'd have a similar situation, then use the Dragons to bring through younger players who need game time.

I'm not having a pop at the Dragons, just using them as the lowest placed and non European Cup Welsh team for the benefit of this post.

Central contracts could be better, because then Welsh rugby would have far more control over players agents, you only have to see the agent of most of the welsh players house, in the lanes near Llantrisant to see where a lot of the money in Welsh rugby goes!
The ability to play regions off against each other would be nullified, and the WRU could easily stick to their policy of not picking non Welsh based players under those circumstances.
His Houses are whole bloody estate, when I was up there working on the property he was pointing out where the swimming pool was going to be built and it's acres of grassland as far as you can see!