Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Both Leinster and Munster have NIQ loose head props in van der Merwe and du Preez. Therefore neither of them can sign another NIQ loose head once their contracts are up. That would mean that Ulster need to sign a loose head or be forced to give up a precious NIQ contract. This in a position where Ulster already have two top players in Court and MacAllister.

Makes perfect sense.

JmD wrote:Both Leinster and Munster have NIQ loose head props in van der Merwe and du Preez. Therefore neither of them can sign another NIQ loose head once their contracts are up. That would mean that Ulster need to sign a loose head or be forced to give up a precious NIQ contract. This in a position where Ulster already have two top players in Court and MacAllister.

Makes perfect sense.

Prime example.

leinsterbaby wrote:I really like Nacewa but Ireland went to the world cup with no fullback who had more than a few games under their belt. Why? Cause there were no Irish players playing in that position, plus injuries. The proposed system aims to avoid this in the future.

Well, it's already been pointed out that you're wrong. Last season Leinster were actually the only Irish province to have a NIQ fullback in Nacewa. Ulster had Adam D'Arcy with cover from David McIlwaine and Jamie Smith (both since moved on). Munster had Felix Jones with Denis Hurley and Johne Murphy also getting gametime there and Connacht obviously had Gavin Duffy.

So seven or eight Irish fullbacks getting provincial gametime there- not one of them good enough for international rugby; which just goes to show that having Irish players playing is not a magical guarantee of a larger player pool for national coaches to draw from.

But with only one NIQ fullback in the provinces at that time, the exact same situation could easily arise again in a different position.

A point that I think has been missed, will we be able to attract top quality coaches?

Would Schmidt have taken the job if these conditions were in place at the time?

If a Province talked to Jake White and he learned how hamstrung he could be by the IRFU, would he not think there are easier jobs out there.

A provincial Coach is one of the few people to put Province before Country, he'll work with the IRFU, but his primary concern is the Province.
e.g If Ireland win 5 grand slams, but in that time Leinster never make it out of the group in the H-cup or win a Pro 12 title., then that Coach would be gone.

It's a hard job to take when its so set up to benefit the National side (at expense of Provinicial sides), but your job depends on the Provinicial side.

Notch wrote:Alright; I just don't understand what you're saying. Can you elucidate why you think ROG, BOD, Wallace and DOC having central contracts over younger, less experienced player is a problem for Irish Rugby if the above are still good enough (for now)? And also why you think an older player getting more games for his province is better for the development of younger players?

Sorry Notch....ok I am not saying that ROG etc. getting central contracts is a problem, what I am saying is that the IRFU are being hypocritcal with this new policy. They are claiming that not enough academy players are being selected because of the NIE's, and this is not in the long term interests of Irish rugby.

What I am suggesting is that there is no difference between say for example Paul Marshall not getting selected because of Pienaar and Luke Marshall not getting selected because of Paddy Wallace.....ok there is one obvious difference, that Wallace is IE...but in both cases the academy graduate is not getting selected for the big games.

My point is that if according to the IRFU, the former scenario is detrimental to Ireland, then so is the latter...which is being facilitated by the IRFU. Personally I don't think either scenario is an issue because when the academy graduate is good enough then they will be selected.

I don't agree with these new proposals at all...I think they will prove detrimental to the provinces and Ireland. The IRFU should have incrementally reduced the number of NIE's and maybe identified positions like prop and said there are to be no new NIEs signed for the forseeable future. These new proposals are unworkable IMO.

leinsterbaby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

That's like saying I won't bother applying for my dream job because there are no guarantees I'll get it. With the new system at least two Irish players per position will have Heineken cup experience, that might not guarantee they will become world beaters but they will of course have a better chance.

I disagree....if you apply for your dream job you need to overcome whatever competition there is to get it.

The IRFU removing some of the competiton for the academy players does not guarantee more quality players. All it does it does is create an opportunity for substandard players to get more game time. Yes we'll have more players to chose from but not necessarily better ones. If these guys were good enough then we wouldn't need the NIE's in the first place.

Take someone like Zebo for example. If he plays international rugby he'll come across even better players than Doug Howlett, so how does removing competition from Howlett to fast track Zebo help Ireland? IMO it doesn't, what we need is Zebo to learn from and then surpass someone like Howlett and only then is he ready for international rugby.

A few, ok a lot, of observations:

1 - I am convinced that the prop situation is the one that has prompted this. Effectly for a decade we had Horan and Hayes with Simon Best on the bench. We were incredibly lucky that those 3 guys stayed fit. Then Best and Horan were hit by medical conditions and even John Hayes could not go on for ever.
We have only had Healy coming through to replace them, to fulfil the other two slots we had to get a guy who was, by and large considered a failure by the Irish system, back from England and we unearthed a shot putter in Australia with an Irish granny. We did try and develop Buckley - that failed.
However why can't we simply stop the provinces signing TH's for a while, like we did with 10's, rather than overthrow the whole system.
Combined with a reduction to 4+1 that would be sufficient

2 - 3 into 15 doesn't go for the simply reason some of those 15 will not be wanted by any team. Who is going to sign the NIE hooker then ?

3 - By all means lets improve our academies but again the level of talent coming through is uneven. At Ulster we are looking quite good in the front row and in the backs but no one of note coming through in the back row. The talent just isn't there and if we have to play IQ players in those positions in the future we will suffer.

4 - We should underestimate the quality of coaching the NIE players bring to the provinces. Court, McAllister, Macklin are better props because of BJ Botha. Marshall, Humphreys and Jackson are better half backs because of Pienaer. Most of those players have publically stated as much. I would expect our young backs to benefit similarly from Paynes present.

5 - I cannot see this doing anything other than weakening the Provinces and the net result of that will some of the better players leaving. Ferris only signed his current contract becasue he could see Ulster were on the up - if he thought the opposite he would no longer be an Ulster player

Kingshu wrote:A point that I think has been missed, will we be able to attract top quality coaches?

Would Schmidt have taken the job if these conditions were in place at the time?

If a Province talked to Jake White and he learned how hamstrung he could be by the IRFU, would he not think there are easier jobs out there.

A provincial Coach is one of the few people to put Province before Country, he'll work with the IRFU, but his primary concern is the Province.
e.g If Ireland win 5 grand slams, but in that time Leinster never make it out of the group in the H-cup or win a Pro 12 title., then that Coach would be gone.

It's a hard job to take when its so set up to benefit the National side (at expense of Provinicial sides), but your job depends on the Provinicial side.

Not many jobs about where a coach has an open cheque book to bring in who he likes (Toulouse & Clermont maybe). Most coaches would kill to have the opportunity to coach the IQ resources that Munster & Leinster have.

Do you really think its either a GS or a HCup? Are you basing this on what has happened in Wales? I think winning the GS in 09 helped Leinster in getting over the line in the HCup.

Agree 100% on every point Geoff.

A few further things:

What happens if a province signs an NIE and then they decide to leave prematurely? Can the province replace them? If not do the province force the player to stay against their will?

If say Munster and Ulster both want to sign a 2nd row for example and both are in discussions with players...and say they or the IRFU decide that Ulster get preference and then the deal falls through then both teams will potentially lose out on signing a 2nd row.

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

That's like saying I won't bother applying for my dream job because there are no guarantees I'll get it. With the new system at least two Irish players per position will have Heineken cup experience, that might not guarantee they will become world beaters but they will of course have a better chance.

I disagree....if you apply for your dream job you need to overcome whatever competition there is to get it.

The IRFU removing some of the competiton for the academy players does not guarantee more quality players. All it does it does is create an opportunity for substandard players to get more game time. Yes we'll have more players to chose from but not necessarily better ones. If these guys were good enough then we wouldn't need the NIE's in the first place.

Take someone like Zebo for example. If he plays international rugby he'll come across even better players than Doug Howlett, so how does removing competition from Howlett to fast track Zebo help Ireland? IMO it doesn't, what we need is Zebo to learn from and then surpass someone like Howlett and only then is he ready for international rugby.

I doubt he will come across much better than Doug Howlett (for instance, I can't see Howlett being benched for Bowe, North, Shane Williams, Isa Nacewa, Luke Fitz, Fionn carr, Tim Visser, Gilroy etc).

Vincent Clerc might give Howlett some competition.

Sin é wrote:
I doubt he will come across much better than Doug Howlett (for instance, I can't see Howlett being benched for Bowe, North, Shane Williams, Isa Nacewa, Luke Fitz, Fionn carr, Tim Visser, Gilroy etc).

Vincent Clerc might give Howlett some competition.

Sin you are getting bogged down in the detail...I just used Howlett/Zebo as an example to illustrate the point, the point is that removing NIE player x might make it easier for academy player y to be selected but it does not make player y a better player...in fact it probably does the opposite.

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:A point that I think has been missed, will we be able to attract top quality coaches?

Would Schmidt have taken the job if these conditions were in place at the time?

If a Province talked to Jake White and he learned how hamstrung he could be by the IRFU, would he not think there are easier jobs out there.

A provincial Coach is one of the few people to put Province before Country, he'll work with the IRFU, but his primary concern is the Province.
e.g If Ireland win 5 grand slams, but in that time Leinster never make it out of the group in the H-cup or win a Pro 12 title., then that Coach would be gone.

It's a hard job to take when its so set up to benefit the National side (at expense of Provinicial sides), but your job depends on the Provinicial side.

Not many jobs about where a coach has an open cheque book to bring in who he likes (Toulouse & Clermont maybe). Most coaches would kill to have the opportunity to coach the IQ resources that Munster & Leinster have.

Do you really think its either a GS or a HCup? Are you basing this on what has happened in Wales? I think winning the GS in 09 helped Leinster in getting over the line in the HCup.

Sine again your taking it to literal, of course its not Hcup or grandslam.

But the point is if the provinces are set up to support the National team at the expense of the Provinical team (as we all see these changes weaking the Provinical teams) then would a coach want a job at a Province that is too far set up to support the national team, where his job depends on how the Province does and not connected to how the national team does.

i.e the Provinces are set up to support the National team, however keeping his job is completly independent from the National team success.

Just had a chat.
The first work round has been identified.

Get top SH teenagers over on development contracts, put them through University and after 3 years they are IQ.

So the Irish side has a fresh pool of talent -just half the team speak Afrikaan

Thats the trouble when you have rules that are too rigid, as these are, people look for and find loop holes which lead to unintended consequences

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I doubt he will come across much better than Doug Howlett (for instance, I can't see Howlett being benched for Bowe, North, Shane Williams, Isa Nacewa, Luke Fitz, Fionn carr, Tim Visser, Gilroy etc).

Vincent Clerc might give Howlett some competition.

Sin you are getting bogged down in the detail...I just used Howlett/Zebo as an example to illustrate the point, the point is that removing NIE player x might make it easier for academy player y to be selected but it does not make player y a better player...in fact it probably does the opposite.

The devil is in the detail though - Sexton had major problems with NIE players at Leinster (several ahead of him). It would not be an issue with Ronan O'Gara was blocking him as long as O'Gara was available to the national team and if Sexton wasn't better than an IQ player. Bowe blocking Zebo in Munster would not be an issue either because Bowe would be available to Ireland and presumably if Zebo wasn't good enough for Munster, he would not be good enough for Ireland. That would be great competition for him - beat him at club level, means he gets ahead of him at international level. Look how it worked out for Conor Murray, and look how it will more than likely work out for Peter O'Mahony getting ahead of international players at club level.

Another point define NIE.

How would it have helped us in the recent pass re no 10

O'Gara - Munster and Ireland
Contepomi - Leinster and Argentina
Humphreys - Ulster and retired

Still only one player eligable for Ireland.
In a couple of years time we could have 2 retired internationals at 12 - Wallace and D'Arcy

Bowe (not a great example because hes only 28) blocking Zebo is not a problem for Ireland in the short term but it would be no less an issue for Ireland in the longer term than Howlett blocking him.

IMO neither scenario is a big issue because when Zebo is good enough then he will be selected and the NIQ quotas already prevent the Howlett scenario happening too frequently.

To use another example....is O'Malley and McFadden not playing regularly in the HEC because of D'arcy and BOD better than say Fionn Carr(or joe o'bloggs) not playing because of Nacewa? In the short term yes maybe but in the longer term the net result is the same.

Kingshu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Kingshu wrote:A point that I think has been missed, will we be able to attract top quality coaches?

Would Schmidt have taken the job if these conditions were in place at the time?

If a Province talked to Jake White and he learned how hamstrung he could be by the IRFU, would he not think there are easier jobs out there.

A provincial Coach is one of the few people to put Province before Country, he'll work with the IRFU, but his primary concern is the Province.
e.g If Ireland win 5 grand slams, but in that time Leinster never make it out of the group in the H-cup or win a Pro 12 title., then that Coach would be gone.

It's a hard job to take when its so set up to benefit the National side (at expense of Provinicial sides), but your job depends on the Provinicial side.

Not many jobs about where a coach has an open cheque book to bring in who he likes (Toulouse & Clermont maybe). Most coaches would kill to have the opportunity to coach the IQ resources that Munster & Leinster have.

Do you really think its either a GS or a HCup? Are you basing this on what has happened in Wales? I think winning the GS in 09 helped Leinster in getting over the line in the HCup.

Sine again your taking it to literal, of course its not Hcup or grandslam.

But the point is if the provinces are set up to support the National team at the expense of the Provinical team (as we all see these changes weaking the Provinical teams) then would a coach want a job at a Province that is too far set up to support the national team, where his job depends on how the Province does and not connected to how the national team does.

i.e the Provinces are set up to support the National team, however keeping his job is completly independent from the National team success.

Well, I'd argue that Leinster would have won nothing with Contempomi at OH! And Sexton was not getting a look in with Leinster.

Who is to say that the provincial coaches won't get recognised for their contribution to the national side - even as it is, they get a fair bit of credit - and I'd be pretty sure they know that if interest falls off in the national team, they won't have much of a budget to do anything at provincial level.

roddersm wrote:Bowe (not a great example because hes only 28) blocking Zebo is not a problem for Ireland in the short term but it would be no less an issue for Ireland in the longer term than Howlett blocking him.

IMO neither scenario is a big issue because when Zebo is good enough then he will be selected and the NIQ quotas already prevent the Howlett scenario happening too frequently.

To use another example....is O'Malley and McFadden not playing regularly in the HEC because of D'arcy and BOD better than say Fionn Carr(or joe o'bloggs) not playing because of Nacewa? In the short term yes maybe but in the longer term the net result is the same.

Zebo is not the answer at international level if he can't get ahead of an aging Bowe at club level. I don't think its a good thing for the national team that Fionn Carr is behind Nacewa and while players like Nacewa (Howlett & Elsom) might help with professionalism and setting standards - how many years need they to be there. Elsom had a very positive affect on the Leinster forwards - perhaps him leaving after a season put it up to them to sink or swim and they decided to swim. Would Sean O'Brien have emerged when he did if Rocky stayed for another season or two. Oh, and Kevin McLaughlin would be a stockbroker now as he was going to retire.

Sin é wrote:
Zebo is not the answer at international level if he can't get ahead of an aging Bowe at club level.

That the flipping point! ...and if you subsitute Bowe for Howlett then it's the same...if and when Zebo is good enough he will shine through and if he doesn't then hes not good enough anyway.

In this respect Carr/D Kearney v Horgan is essentially no different than Zebo v Howlett....at least not as far as increasing Irelands long term player pool and the amount of academy players getting HEC experience..which is the rational for these changes.

Sine its a balancing act, if the Provinces are too set up to promote the National team the Provinces suffer, and Vice Versa.

I doubt very much that a coach would be kept in say the Leinster job if he failed 5 years to even get out of the group in the H-cup, no matter how well Ireland do.

Like I said his job depends on how the Province does and is not connected to how the national team does.

So if potental new coaches for Provinces consider the balance too far in favour of the National team, they would certainly think twice about the job, as their hands are tied in so many ways.

Assigned the 5 places can sign NIE players (he doesn't get much choice) they can't be moved, and can't be resigned.
Can be told where he has to play Irish players, they can't go over a certain number of minutes on a pitch either, and when he has to rest them.
Etc Etc

In short he may see it as the IRFU are making the bigger decisions and he has very little control, and would prefer a job elsewhere, where he can have a greater input.

Sorry guys, you are being WAY too litteral with the whole wording of the no more than one NIE in any given position. Not what it said, all the provinces could sign a TH prop that is NIE. Any given MATCH DAY teams, MUST have two of the three TH's be IE.

This is very different from being barred from signing an NIE because one or other province have one.

Secondly, all current NIE players are getting at least 18months notice of this change, which is fair. Coaches too, can plan for these changes by rotating their squads this and next season.

As for the fullbacks point made above, the reason we went to the RWC like we did in that respect was injury related. The IRFU policy isn't aiming at developing world class players that are 5th or 6th in line for a position, but rather that if these guys are needed due to an outbreak of the scuts in the FB dorm, that they have played some intense matches.

Put it this way, Conor Murray didn't go to a World Cup because he played away to Dragons/Connacht/Glasgow on a manky November evening. He went because he played at the business end of the Amlin (i know, laugh etc) and in the semi & Final of the Pro 12. You know, top level games, and he swam. Then gets his chance in france and plays well, and is now 1st choice for Ireland.

He got the opportunity because TOL was injured/awful and Strings had fallen out of favour, but that will happen in the engineered sense from 2013 when the coaches willbe forced to rotate who plays and when in consultation with the other provinces.

Going to be REAL fun on derby days!

Kingshu wrote:
Assigned the 5 places can sign NIE players (he doesn't get much choice) they can't be moved, and can't be resigned.
Can be told where he has to play Irish players, they can't go over a certain number of minutes on a pitch either, and when he has to rest them.
Etc Etc

Kingshu, this is not what the NIE change will do, he can sign whomever he wants in whatever position in the knowledge that up to 2/3rds of his match day teams he will be without that player.

However, taking Dougie as an example, he could play pretty much every game because, thankfully, the other provinces have IE wingers. Danielli at Ulster being the exception, so what would happen is that Ulster & Munster would effectively rotate one week one week off with those two players. (notwithsatnding them not being resigned etc)

geoff998rugby wrote:Just had a chat.
The first work round has been identified.

Get top SH teenagers over on development contracts, put them through University and after 3 years they are IQ.

So the Irish side has a fresh pool of talent -just half the team speak Afrikaan

Thats the trouble when you have rules that are too rigid, as these are, people look for and find loop holes which lead to unintended consequences

This was the point I was trying to make earlier about how this will effectively increase our number of project players. It's the only way the provinces will be able to re-sign foreign talent.

debaters1 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
Assigned the 5 places can sign NIE players (he doesn't get much choice) they can't be moved, and can't be resigned.
Can be told where he has to play Irish players, they can't go over a certain number of minutes on a pitch either, and when he has to rest them.
Etc Etc

Kingshu, this is not what the NIE change will do, he can sign whomever he wants in whatever position in the knowledge that up to 2/3rds of his match day teams he will be without that player.

However, taking Dougie as an example, he could play pretty much every game because, thankfully, the other provinces have IE wingers. Danielli at Ulster being the exception, so what would happen is that Ulster & Munster would effectively rotate one week one week off with those two players. (notwithsatnding them not being resigned etc)

Whos going to sign a big name (big wage) NIE player that can only play half the season?
and if Leinster got one 1/3 of the season?

Was just thinking the Italian union identified 9 10 and 15 as problem area's for them. their solution is to only allow one NIQ player in one of these positions per match day squad, and if replaced, his replacement has to be Italian.

The IRFU could do something similar, as well as having more say in the positions NIQ players can be signed, they made a mistake allowing so many NIQ tightheads to be signed.

The ELVs went away quickly (but not until they had improved our game), so who says these IRFU edicts won't hang around for a couple of seasons and then disappear too. As it stands, these rules are coming in, so I say embrace them and adapt accordingly. I suspect our natural conservatism in Ireland will make this difficult but, why not trust in the young-uns coming through and see how we go? NZ didn't worry that the ELVs were going to change the game, instead they studied, tested, and adapted to them while everybody else was standing still and brooding. I, for one, am happy that the IRFU are being proactive, even though it seems awfully excessive in this case. I hope they will be equally quick to change if these new rules fall flat on their face.

I find it difficult to embrace a rule that is essentially two fingers up to the provinces who have delivered so much success and raised the profile of the game here.

You say they will change back if it doesnt work but even if they do and after a couple of barren years where we arent competitive we go back to what is was before a lot of the good work in raising the profile of the game will have been undone.

The pressure is relentless to compete with Football and the Gaelic games and rugby is finally making some headway in this regard. A few seasons were we arent competitive could be disastrous.

They'll be watered down before they're brought in, I'm nearly certain.

This is a fairly brash negotiating tactic by the IRFU mind you.

'Brash' is about right. Have I got this right: Danielli contract up in May 2012 - so he will probably be replaced with either an NIE/Bowe/Raven player. Pienaar's contract is up at same time and we pray he gets a new five year deal. Pedrie is up in June next year and the chat on here is that he will be replaced by Kaino. Muller is up in May 2013 - when the shyt is going to hit the fan - and will be forced out and replaced with IE player (Caldwell?). Afoa, May 2014, but it depends on what Munster do with Botha in 2013 in his case. Payne is Irish qualified in September 2014 and hopefully stays on. Then it starts getting complicated....!

Wannenburg and Danielli are definitely both going regardless. Pienaar might stay, still up in the air. Muller has always said he was going to retire after leaving Ulster, he said that when he signed that he might stay for one extra year if it went well (and he has) but after that it was back to the family farm in South Africa.

Our only problem is if we aren't allowed to sign an NIQ lock and an NIQ scrum-half to replace those players. This seems incredibly stupid since Munster and Leinster have 5 Irish international locks and 5 Irish international scrum-halves between them- though I'm sure Stringer will retire soon- and both have more promising locks and nines in their Academies than we do.

So if I read the plans correctly, after Muller and Pienaar leave the teams with the current Irish internationals at lock and nine would get the chance to sign players in those positions whereas we'd have to bring in Irish players or promote from within- even though we have no Irish players of quality and there are none available. Unless someone moves to Ulster from Munster or something.

Then we'd have the chance to sign an NIQ loosehead or centre since we haven't had one for a while; but we have 3 pretty good Irish looseheads and 5 pretty good Irish centres with more coming through. So us signing those players would be counter-productive. We'll end up with NIQ players where we are strong and none where we are weak.

So it becomes quite clear if you take this plan literally, actually look at the nitty gritty details, it's a load of mad nonsense.

Stringer has said recently that he plans to carry on for a few seasons yet. Unless TOL leaves its hard to see him getting much gametime at Munster....therefore you could maybe see him going to Connacht in which case could Frank Murphy move to Ulster? Or might Boss move North again?

Ruddock or Ryan would be good signings for us too....if we can't sign Kaino that is?....Bowe will be in seriously hot demand now.

Could see Stringer going to Ulster if Pienaar doesn't resign. Probably won't want to come though because of tax breaks available to players in the ROI when they retire.

If we were to get Tomas O'Leary after Pienaar is forced to leave by the IRFU. I would, in the immortal words of Bob Dylan, "feel that life is but a joke."

I'm not a fan of his- not without a quality 10 outside him anyway. Maybe we'll be allowed to sign a NIQ 10. Munster and Leinster have had NIQ 10s more recently than us in Contepomi, Berquist and Warwick.

But imagine an off-form Humphreys running onto O'Learys service. Yikes. Whatever happens we need somebody at 9 or 10 from outside Ireland to stay competitive in the short term.

Tomas O'Leary...no thank you very much....him and Ihumph would be a disaster waiting to happen. He wouldn't offer any more control or consistancy than Marshall, who right now is a better player than TOL anyway.

I would gladly take Stringer though..even for a season and then he could head to Connacht to get his well earned tax rebate.

10 would be a bigger problem if Pienaar leaves..other than O'Connor returning the options are thin on the ground.

If Pienaar leaves we should sign a NIQ 10.

We'll get Dan Carter. Sure big John is probably tapping him up as we speak!

Unless we get Pienaar to sign until post 2013...then when his contract runs out resign him as a 10?...or vice versa...

The real question is how we keep Muller...mind you he's 30 but it would good to keep him for a couple of seasons yet and then maybe he'll stay beyond that in a coaching capacity?

I would like to see Johann remain at the club in a coaching capacity but then again I have no idea how good a coach he is. I do see how inspirational he is and no less a player than ferris has come out and lauded him for his leadership.

To my mind Muller is exactly the kind of role model our youngsters need but he may fancy going home after next season. I would think Muller might have it in him to play another season after his current contract ends but will we be allowed to renew it?

I hope so Stand, Muller is as close to an O'Connell type talisman as we are ever going to get...he's been an inspired signing. He fits our team so well you nearly can't tell hes not really an Ulsterman, a bit like Howlett at Munster or Nacewa at Leinster he's just a perfect fit. The longer we keep him the better.

Rory and Ferris are real talismen too but Muller just brings a real control and calmness that no one else we have does to the same extent.

I think i heard during the commentary to the last game that Andy Goode (or someone else) referred to Muller as being as close to a Martin Johnson in terms of presence as anyone he had played with.

Praise indeed.

Yeah I heard that, he does have that sort of aura about him. I wouldn't go as far to say he's as good a player as Johnson or O'Connell, guys like that come don't come about too often, but he's about as close as you can get.

He's been unlucky (and conversely we've been lucky) that SA have had such good 2nd rows as he'd have gotten a lot more caps for most teams you'd imagine. Awesome player and one we need to keep.

I think this is the first public response from a provincial coach;

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/11930.php

Hopefully more people speak out and this can be watered down a bit. The irony is that the moves would probably be unnecessary if it wasn't for signings like Mat Berquist (when they have Ian Madigan) and Nathan White (when they have Jamie Hagan). But as Schmidt points out those moves were IRFU sanctioned.

He absolutely nails it; it's a kneejerk reaction. To be seen to be doing something for the sake of doing something rather than making well thought out changes that will benefit everyone.

Yeah I read in the IT that the provinces are spitting mad about this, in particular Leinster. Apparantly the provinces voiced their concerns but the IRFU went ahead with it anyway.

There is a very good article in the Irish examiner by Donal Lenihan explaining how this will work in reality or how it will be very difficult to make work.

Leinster may be the most angry but as the team with the biggest pool of Irish talent and the greatest squad depth in terms of homegrown players they will also be by far the least affected of the three teams

Fair play to Schmidt. Glad to see someone speak out

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:The Johnny Sexton article is all very well and good, but the bottom line is: did he go?

The answer is no, he didn't. He wasn't lost to Irish rugby. He's now first choice 10 for Leinster and Ireland (arguably). He got discouraged, he got a chance, he took it. Given fifteen minutes, you could re-write that article as a celebratory peice explaining how well the system currently works.

Chances are he might not have got much of a chance to succeed abroad as his confidence would have been so shot (bear in mind Leinster had 3 NIQ OHs ahead of him, including a very aging Horwell and neither Contempomi or Nacewa were any great shakes at OH).

Oh Sin let it go man. Felipe was the best in Europe. Yes, far better than ROG. Like Sexton is now.

Anyway, I can see the long-term benefits both financially and infrastructure-wise, of the IRFU directive. I am going against the posting grain here but its what I want to happen.

Just dont want it to happen in this mad-cap ball of confusion, only an Irish Govt Committee could construe. Its like PR for NIQ players. In its present manifestation - it wont work. It will cause provincial in-fighting and will be counter-productive in the short-term.

Mclaughlin and Schmidt have spoken openly now about it. The branches should have been heavily involved at its' inception.

Leinster and to a lesser extent - Munster, have already gone a long way down the road in having a massive IQ player ratio at game time. Why didnt the IRFU recognise and reward this and just attack the key, perennial weakeness in Irish rugby. Locks and Props. We could sell backs and backrowers to the SH at the minute. The constant flow of indigenous talent, it gushet.

The Directive is a well meant one. It just hasn't been thought through. It was already happening by osmosis anyway.

I blame that SA Province - Ulster, for all of this.

P.S. I vote this as the best rugby section discussion of 2011. Some excellent input for the IRFU. Take a bow Greybeard.

P.P.S. I was joshin about Ulster. They are producing their fair share of young Irish talent.

Except for when it mattered Gibson ..felipe got a lesson in 06..lucky for leinster he was injured in the final

Ha! He set us up in the 09 SF. Ran over and through ROG and at that point, the game was won. And with it, Munsters glory days were gone.

He then did it last year with Toulon, to put the final nail in the coffin. I could see it in is eyes as he whacked Leamy near the end. Huge smile on his fisog. Its no wonder Munster fans hated him.

Karma eh?

Sorry for side-tracking author. But, me and Decco have to have our yearly joust.

Felllliiiipeeeeeeeeee!

If teams beat Munster simply by "running over and through ROG" then Munster would be worse than Aironi.

He comes across as a seriously nasty individual but then again so does ROG. I bet the two of them are texting each other before each match coming up with who'll be the panto villain this time. Like wrestlers in the WWF.

The annoying this is something needed to be done. But they've gone too far and crossed the line into interference and micro-managing.

But lets take an example of where the provinces are failing. This lad, Chris Cochrane, made his competitive debut for Ulster on Boxing Day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf0sZ3qT8yE&feature=g-all-u&context=G2e57207FAAAAAAAABAA

He showed why he needs time with that fine finish and he showed why he isn't getting it with several glaring defensive errors. So it's a question of why he is still at the level he was when I first saw him in action for Ulster- all the way back in August 2008.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/match_centre.php?section=overview&fixid=61723

He was playing opposite a Queensland Reds Development team in pre-season friendly- opposite a young Aussie lad called Digby Ioane. Fresh-faced and very confident, just out of school, he ghosted in for two excellent tries. He won man of the match in a 24-0 against a side containing many of the young lads who would go on to contribute to the revival in the Queensland Reds fortunes over the next three years. I thought I'd seen a really good prospect leaving the ground and I wasn't talking about Will Genia (doh).

Matt Williams, coach at the time, afterwards described him as having the heart of the Lion and the legs of a Chicken, implying that he was unsuited to the professional game. Rightly or wrongly, he went on to completely freeze him out of his plans that season. And it probably was right because he had Simon Danielli- one of the hottest try scorers in the league.

After that I understand he had some real bad luck with injuries- really struggled with a few bad ones long-term. And he was surpassed by a new wave of young back three talent. Craig Gilroy, Tommy Seymour, Mark McCrea, David McIlwaine, Jamie Smith etc. all saw gametime ahead of him- all but one of the first of those young players has moved out of the province.

Anyway, if I was the IRFU I would be incredibly peed off to see Cochrane getting his senior debut three years after that great display. But not as peed off as I would be that he hasn't improved his defence after three years in the Ulster Academy. He was caught out because he's inexperienced. He's inexperienced because he can't get gametime at a meaningful level of rugby. You see, it's not the Craig Gilroys who let you know if it's working. Its the ones who don't make it but should have that really tell you if a system is working.

Then the brain cells start to fire and they question the role of Simon Danielli in all of this. Like I said he was once one of the most dangerous finishers in the league, a fans favourite and a valuable senior player. But he's been mediocre to poor for a long while now. He was given a contract extension long past his usefulness and cannot make the Ulster 23 anymore. Whilst the kid he once kept out on merit continues to stagnate.

So we can see we do have some problems, we do. I'd have no trouble if they had added 2 + 2 together and got 4. But they've misstepped badly here and I think it may well hurt their cause.

In trying to legislate against the worst abuses of the NIQ system they will compromise the best. For every Danielli there is a Nacewa. For every Clint Newlands there is a BJ Botha. Their rigidity will damage the provinces; the cure is worse than the disease!