Leinster v Ulster at the RDS on Stephen's day

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15: Luke Fitzgerald
14: David Kearney
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Fionn Carr
10: Ian Madigan
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Cian Healy
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Damian Browne
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Shane Jennings CAPTAIN
8: Leo Auva'a

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss
17: Jack McGrath
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Steven Sykes
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Isaac Boss
22: Eoin O'Malley
23: Andrew Conway

(15-9): P Nelson; C Cochrane, M Allen, C Farrell, S Danielli; J McKinney, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, N Brady (capt), A Macklin, T Barker, L Stevenson, N McComb, A Birch, R Diack;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, J Cronin, T Court, J Simpson, C Joyce, I Porter, S Olding, C Gaston

Ulster are obviously keeping their powder dry for Munster in Ravenhill next week. This could be a hammering....

How did Black get a bind then Pete?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ross couldn't reach his body tho because he didn't come forward an thus Ross went to ground.

It was very clever play by Black alright. I was delighted with how he neutralised Ross at scrum time.

Admit it, if it was a test match and Cian Healy mugged an Owen Franks or Martin Castrogiovanni in the scrums like that we'd be full of praise!

StandU - Sorry I was responding to your previous post where you said "Ross was abysmal" implying that Black didn't deserve the credit.

I actually thought Healy was poor against the callow Macklin and should have dominated him far more in the scrum.

Agreed on Healy, Auk, but I'd argue that Birch, McKinney, Allen and Nelson all enhanced their reputations.

Notch wrote:Er, no Aukster there's a middle ground between being allowed a bit less freedom in overseas signings and having no senior players. The likes of Cave, Spence, Marshall, Henry, Faloon, Gilroy, Tuohy, McAllister, Fitzpatrick, Humphreys, D'Arcy would not be legislated against- never mind our homegrown Irish internationals.

Whatever way you look at it Notch - this is the standard of team or close to it that would be running on more often - at least three of those you mention are injured. Take out Afoa, Wannenburg, Pienaar and Danielli (probably Muller too), this class of player will be playing more often. I'm not saying it's wrong just that Ulster should start getting used to it.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ross couldn't reach his body tho because he didn't come forward an thus Ross went to ground.

It was very clever play by Black alright. I was delighted with how he neutralised Ross at scrum time.

Admit it, if it was a test match and Cian Healy mugged an Owen Franks or Martin Castrogiovanni in the scrums like that we'd be full of praise!

That is true I guess!
Suppose it is the result (of the scrum) that matters not how you get it. Very encouraging from ulster for sure.

What did people think of madigan and toner?

Well I'm not for the IRFUs latest brainwave at all, but we still can have 4 NIQ players. The real issue may well be if the rules on renewing contracts mean we can't attract the same calibre of player and we have much less freedom in the positions we are looking to sign players in. I'm not happy about it, but thought I should point out the hyperbole here.

We may well have a weaker squad. But we had 26 senior players from our squad either not included or unavailable. That's not going to become the norm for pretty much every game because of a change in the guidelines governing NIQ players.

Don Alfonso wrote:Agreed on Healy, Auk, but I'd argue that Birch, McKinney, Allen and Nelson all enhanced their reputations.

Birch's reputation is that of a wholehearted tearaway openside, but too lightweight for higher honours. He pretty much lived up to that tonight, but didn't press his case over Faloon or Henry.

McKinney was a bit disappointing for me. Not disastrous but generally kicked short and made no use the wind in the 2nd half.

Allen was a bit of a plus, good tackling and strong in general but when it really came down to him to produce a play he didn't. I'm thinking of the time when he drew the defence and tried a one-hand offload to Cochrane for a run-in try - he passed into touch. Such a fine line but hey these guys get limited opportunities and that just might have been his last one.

I really rate Nelson as an International prospect, but that wasn't enhanced tonight. He made a great run but also knocked on, not really his fault as there is no way he should have bben playing at 15.

gutsy stuff from the ulster kids and lets make no mistake thats what they were.

satisfactory outing again from leinster. not quite at it but 45 points scored. not a bad return at all.

madigan is going in the right direction and making decent strides this season. a good playmaker but a little erratic. Cannot see him jumping into Sextons jersey for a long time unlike a few of the resident anti sexton brigade.

i have to say its been a very satisfactory season so far for leinster. 6 points clear in the rabo and coasting in the HC. If we get a home quarter i can see us getting to Twickenham. Hines a loss sure however i just get the sense that we will score more than the opposition. good times alright.

Aukster,

What do you mean "...there is no way Nelson should have been playing at 15."?

He is a FB, no?

Notch wrote:Well I'm not for the IRFUs latest brainwave at all, but we still can have 4 NIQ players. The real issue may well be if the rules on renewing contracts mean we can't attract the same calibre of player and we have much less freedom in the positions we are looking to sign players in. I'm not happy about it, but thought I should point out the hyperbole here.

We may well have a weaker squad. But we had 26 senior players from our squad either not included or unavailable. That's not going to become the norm for pretty much every game because of a change in the guidelines governing NIQ players.

Ulster wouldn't have been allowed to sign Afoa nor would they be allowed to replace Afoa, so it's Fitzpatrick, Macklin or Cronin. I like them all as players but none are Test standard which I equate with HEC standard.

Wannenburg has probably been Ulster's most consistent player in both performance and presence. He replaced Tamati Horua - so wouldn't have been allowed under the new rules. Where do Ulster find that sort of experience elsewhere?

Pienaar and Muller were both missing due to the RWC which was unusual but that isn't going to be so under the new regs as neither are eligible to resign
in positions that Ulster are weak - is that really hyperbole?

Didn't think Birch looked too lightweight al all, and, although not fantastic, McKinney showed a composure I was surprised by.

Madigan looks impressive. I'm not sure Toner was better than Barker or, especially, Stevenson. Amazing work-rate and brilliant in defense. Toner was taller, though.

I think mads is still a bit erratic and unpredictable but has unbelievable attacking flair.
I thought toner was pretty good to be honest, he's upped his workrate hugely and is becoming much more skilful too

I thought McKinney had a good game ok he has some lessons to learn but he can tackle!!!!!! And he made some good ones the young lads did us very proud tonight against some very seasoned pro's.

One thing I got out of the after game comments is... Pete de Buachaill is the Leinster version of Notch. Had real pints with both. Sweet lads. But. Both anal-ise it all to death. Just an observation on the blind effervescence of youff.

Jennings was the best player on the field and took an also fairly young Leinster side - home. Fact is, our kids are the best in Yurop. We have been busy developing our own, whilst others, have spent their time busy trying to buy in South Africa and instant success. Shaadup (Micky T style).

Believe.

Gibson wrote:One thing I got out of the after game comments is... Pete de Buachaill is the Leinster version of Notch.

You've just made Pete's life Gibbo. All his Christmases have come at once!

He'll be ending 2011 on a high note now

Notch wrote:

Gibson wrote:One thing I got out of the after game comments is... Pete de Buachaill is the Leinster version of Notch.

You've just made Pete's life Gibbo. All his Christmases have come at once!

He'll be ending 2011 on a high note now

Haha! You love it notch don't try to hide behind the bravado!
I like to analyse yeah, makes talking tactics and such that bit more interesting.

Loved watching young Marshall, bossing more experienced players around him. His own and ours. Reddan was superb. But Marshall gave him a run for his geld.

Other young Ulstermen stood up. Their inexperienced defence held up and denied - against immense pressure, in the 1st half - 3 more Leinster tries.

Ulster are not my team. Have a secret gra for them - in truth. But, as far as deep analysys - player by player wise is concerned... I'm sure de baul Notch can fill in all the gaps.

Bottom line is, they were kids fast growing up. And they did good. No Ulster fan can dare say otherwise. If it was my team, at the same level,in the same circumstances - Id be proud this night.

Just tell yer 1st XV to match that passion and comittment and Munster are so phooked.

Believe.

MrsP wrote:Aukster,

What do you mean "...there is no way Nelson should have been playing at 15."?

He is a FB, no?

Yes he is Mrs P, although I personally think he is better at 12. However what I meant was that I would have had Tereblanche at 15 for this game to add some experience into the backline, especially when Danielli cried off.

Nelson had a pretty good game though, considering the opposition.

Gibson wrote:
Just tell yer 1st XV to match that passion and comittment and Munster are so phooked.

They could show the 1st xv how to play rugby while their at it. They just lacked they physicality and experience to keep it going for 80min.

The frustrating thing is that at 21-13 that game was winnable or at least Ulster had put themselves in a position to take a bonus point. Unfortunately McGlaughlin chose not to put any of the big guns on the bench. Instead of bringing on reinforcements we were bringing on even weaker and less experienced players and the inevitable flood gates opened. There are a lot of positives for Ulster but the bottom line is that it was a hiding and more points dropped.

What happened Barker? He went off after 20min and didn't look too badly hurt? A bizarre substitution.

McKinney gave the best fly half performance from an Ulster 10 this season.

If D'arcy gets selected for Ireland again then we are in serious trouble...the wheels are totally gone now and physically he looks out of his depth against younger and quicker opposition.

I would love to see more from Birch - he looked like the sort of player Faloon is (or should be), except he is much younger and looked more aggressive also. Some question marks have been raised over his physicality and size but I didn't see any problems with it yesterday at all.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would love to see more from Birch - he looked like the sort of player Faloon is (or should be), except he is much younger and looked more aggressive also. Some question marks have been raised over his physicality and size but I didn't see any problems with it yesterday at all.

He's 23, Faloon is 25

*younger then..

roddersm wrote:
They could show the 1st xv how to play rugby while their at it.

The pack was excellent but if our first team backs played like that we would be screaming our heads off; that's ok, the backline acquitted themselves excellently considering their lack of experience. The bad defensive lapses in open play you expect, the lack of accuracy in the offload you expect- it's a lack of experience of dealing with the game at this level. It's natural and they will learn and grow from it.

I wonder if McL is thinking of employing this Ravens team on other away trips this season? They couldn't have been worse than the first XV at Ospreys earlier in the year.

What they lacked in experience they made up for in Passion and pride , which goes a long way.

Too right Ex. The young guys would be right up for away games against teams like Edinburgh and Treviso when a first teamer might begrudge it. The Ravens play a few away games and Muller et al would be fresh for H-Cup and Ravenhill Pro12 games.

Passion and pride are great but the skill level is the most important thing. Up there with it is decision making, and the ability to make the right decision under extreme pressure which comes with experience.

I was pleasantly surprised by Michael Allen last night. I genuinely never thought he would make it (and he still might not) but the bit of play when he nearly put Nelson in was exactly the right call and not far from working.

Nelson i think will most certainly make it and Farrell a as there is always a demand for a big ball carrying 12 in this game. he might even push Marshall in the future i dont know. THe big thing for Ulster has to be getting in a backs coach that is going to get the best out of the next generation because we will be lost if we cant.

Agree with all of the above Stand. Ali Birch was the real big positive for me though. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. He's been viewed as a guy who is simply too small to play backrow in the modern era but he makes VERY good use of the size and power he has and he rarely looked underpowered. Very tough character. See this carry before our try;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rviAPlyY6wI&feature=share

Moments like that go a long, long way to dispelling the idea he can't handle the physicality- and everything else he has.

Yep notch. I would give him the bench over Diack as a reward and a slap to Diack swell.

I would love to do that, but there's only room for one of Faloon or Birch realistically in the matchday squad.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:Er, no Aukster there's a middle ground between being allowed a bit less freedom in overseas signings and having no senior players. The likes of Cave, Spence, Marshall, Henry, Faloon, Gilroy, Tuohy, McAllister, Fitzpatrick, Humphreys, D'Arcy would not be legislated against- never mind our homegrown Irish internationals.

Whatever way you look at it Notch - this is the standard of team or close to it that would be running on more often - at least three of those you mention are injured. Take out Afoa, Wannenburg, Pienaar and Danielli (probably Muller too), this class of player will be playing more often. I'm not saying it's wrong just that Ulster should start getting used to it.

Sorry but this is bunk.
If we ignore all NIE players, all injured players and all Irish squad player we still could have put out.

McAllister, Kyriacou, Macklin, Stevenson, Tuohy, Henry, Diack, Faloon, Marshall, Humphreys, Gilroy, Whitten, Cave, Gaston, D'Arcy.

that is a considerably stronger team than the one we played. Plus it should be born in mind we will still up up to 5 NIE player available.

So to claim this is the stand we need to get used to is rubbish. It was a one off caused by as crazy fixture list dictated to us against our wishes by the TV companies.

Who's claiming this is the standard we need to get used to?
What I said was that this is the standard that would be running out more often. In other words not a unique once in a blue moon team but the sort of team to expect when say the 6N is on.

Bear in mind too that Ulster are only really missing one senior player through injury which is an unusual situation.

I don't even accept that.

This was the team because of the fixture list.

If the game had been played on Christmas Eve it would have been completely different.

geoff998rugby wrote:This was the team because of the fixture list.

If the game had been played on Christmas Eve it would have been completely different.

Of course it was the team because of the fixture list... isn't it always? It is naive to think that TV companies give a stuff about teams when it comes down to ratings and that is a situation likely to continue as long as they hold influence.

There have also been plenty of times where there is fixture congestion caused by the weather in the past few seasons and if Ulster stays in contention for one or another competition they are far more likely to be resting players towards the end of the season. This has to be a factor in Leinster's choice to contract predominantly second string NIEs.

The issue for Ulster is that the new IRFU dictat will strip the very best quality of player out of their already small squad, and they will only be able to potentially recruit in positions already populated by reasonable numbers of promising IE players. In short key positions will be considerably weaker, while other positions will be marginally stronger - that indicates an overall drop in team quality further exacerbated when the squad is stretched.

During the 6 nations, I will still be happy with our 1st XV tbh:

1) McAllister
2) Kyriacou/Brady
3) Afoa
4) Stevenson
5) Muller
6) Wannenburg
7) Faloon
8) Henry/Diack
9) Pienaar/Marshall
10) Humphreys/Pienaar
11) Gilroy
12) Marshall/Whitten
13) Spence
14) Terblanche
15) D'Arcy

This is considering that Trimble, Cave, Wallace, Tuohy, Ferris, Court and Best are unavailable. Danielli also.

It isn't the next 6N that Ulster need to be worried about but rather when the NIE regs kick in.

[quote="The Great Aukster"]

geoff998rugby wrote: The issue for Ulster is that the new IRFU dictat will strip the very best quality of player out of their already small squad, and they will only be able to potentially recruit in positions already populated by reasonable numbers of promising IE players. In short key positions will be considerably weaker, while other positions will be marginally stronger - that indicates an overall drop in team quality further exacerbated when the squad is stretched.

I agree the teams will be weaker - I don't accept that a team like the one that took the field against Leinster will be, at the very very most, more than a once in a season event. I don't even think it will be that.

If we had been playing any team other than Leinster away, before playing Munster, we would have put out a stronger side.