Harlequins v Saracens ko 1630 @ HQ

I'm really looking forward to this game with a lot of young English talent on show.

It could well be the match up for the Premiership Final


'Jordan Turner-Hall will make his return from injury for Harlequins' Aviva Premiership showdown with Saracens at Twickenham.

Table-topping Quins, unbeaten in the league, are set to be given one of the toughest tests of their campaign so far against defending champions Sarries, who currently lie second.

Centre Turner-Hall returns to replace Tom Casson in the one change to the back-line which claimed a famous victory over Toulouse in the Heineken Cup last weekend.

There are further changes in the pack as Joe Marler and Chris Brooker return to the front row in place of Mark Lambert and Joe Gray.

Will Skinner is suspended following his red card in France and has been replaced by Maurie Fa'asavalu.

Meanwhile, Saracens give veteran scrum-half Peter Stringer his first start since joining from Munster with Ben Spencer dropping to the bench - the only change in their backs from last week's win over the Ospreys.

But Mark McCall is forced to make changes up front, with Jacques Burger ruled out for eight weeks after undergoing knee surgery this week.

Andy Saull takes his place at flanker, while in the second row George Kruis replaces Mouritz Botha and Carlos Nieto comes in at prop with Matt Stevens dropping to the bench.

Quins still have a perfect record after 10 games of the domestic season and have been victorious on their last two visits to Twickenham, but Sarries have won their last four games against Tuesday's opponents.

Harlequins: 15 Mike Brown, 14 Seb Stegmann, 13 Matt Hopper, 12 Jordan Turner-Hall, 11 Ugo Monye, 10 Nick Evans, 9 Danny Care, 8 Nick Easter, 7 Chris Robshaw (c), 6 Maurie Fa'asavalu, 5 George Robson, 4 Tomas Vallejos, 3 James Johnston, 2 Chris Brooker, 1 Joe Marler.
Replacements: 16 Joe Gray, 17 Mark Lambert, 18 Tim Fairbrother, 19 Charlie Matthews, 20 Luke Wallace, 21 Richard Bolt, 22 Rory Clegg, 23 Tom Williams.'

Massive loss for Sarries with Burger out, but they have a strong squad.

I'm going for Quins just......

Ive been invited along. Let's hope it's a good game. Seems like a very family affaire. Richmond is buzzing with families off to watch the match.

Brutal game. Looked like it might be a shade one way and not that pretty in the first half with Sarries awesome defence and kick-chase, but full credit to Quins, they've come out fighting in the second. Game on, should be a cracking half hour to conclude.

82000 ceowd the biggest crowd for a club game across the world.

I was realy hoping that Quins would win today, but they gave away to many penalties in the first half and Farrell punished them every time.

I do agree with the poster that their was some up and coming England talent on show today. Brad Barret,Mike Brown, Matt Hopper, Ugo Monye, Joe Marler, and the Hooker for Quins(not sure what is name is.)

Well played to Sarries, for getting infront and staying in front.

Good god saracens you really are a boring team.

Top two, best attended regular season club game in the world, much needed opportunity to positively advertise englishrugby and only team bothers trying to play. Had i been one of the many people at twickenham today watching their first game of rugby i would be calling for my money back never to return to the sport.

Fair enough, defence and the breakdown are intergral parts of the game and saracens do that incredibly well, but to the detriment of the game as a spectacle. Shame really

Penalty count in the first half cost quins as they had sarries rocking for 20 mins after half time-credit to the way they played.

Conor O'Shea and Marc McCall leading the way in the premiership - either of them future Ireland coaches?

Well I was wrong about Sarries missing Burger as Andy Saul had a blinder especially in the first half.
Easter continues his good form together with Brown,Robshaw & Barritt
Sarries deserved it for the first half performance & a well fought game played in the right spirit.
I love the Quins offloading game but you have to admire Sarries defensive organisation.

Well done to the organisers, fans & both sides. A World Record crowd as well!

I don't think Fitzgerald stood out as much as he has been recently. He really is a better winger, than fullback.

Felt the referee Wayne Barnes lacked empathy with the game and that Saracens again were very professional in their demeanour. They slowed play as much as they could when they felt they could.

That said both sides showed their ability to play the game well when chances arose.

I was looking forward to seeing joe marler and nick Easter in the loose, and mike brown in open play. Unfortunately this wasn't the game really.

Marler spent far too long trying to punch players away from play, not the way forward for a prop with England pretentions.

David strettle is starting to show the class he had a few years ago before a spate of injury.

Amazing spectacle at the cabbage patch, great to see such a huge family atmosphere, kind of reminded me of Cardiff. Seems like HQ have finally found a way to make some sort of atmosphere at twickenham. The place was a morgue for years.

Good pint of IPA too...!

Well done Saracens.

Gutting for Quins. If only it was the return game next weekened.

Sarries were in a position to really put Quinsd to the sword - yet once two scores clear, instead of going for the jugular, they chose to play safe.

Quins created chances in the second half but they seriously lacked the clinical finish needed. In the first half Robshaw struggled to get in the game, and after the Sarries try it was Easter rallying the troops. Robshaw was more prominent in the second half.

Finally that pitch looked terrible.

LT

Sarries were doing that as soon as they got their first three points.

maestegmafia wrote:LT

Sarries were doing that as soon as they got their first three points.

Somebody is still smarting after Sarries did the double over the Ospreys

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:LT

Sarries were doing that as soon as they got their first three points.

Somebody is still smarting after Sarries did the double over the Ospreys

Cyril the stalker is out again...!

Happy Christmas maesteg!

Not a truly spectacular game, but a fierce, tense game with high quality moments and enjoyable nonetheless.

Can't fault Saracens for their control of a game, they more or less stamped Harlequins out of it, though Quins did a good job of bringing it early in the 2nd half, but had probably already lost it with indiscipline and the intercept in the 1st.

Likely to be the same teams in the same venue come the final in May, so an interesting prelude and a measure of the coaching teams and how they will adapt.

Actually I think Saracens should applauded for their attacking play, it is just a shame that they rely so little on it. But they look spectacularly dangerous when they fling the ball around.

Though i have noticed that they rely on the mis pass from first receiver to outside center on a loop to a straight running winger very often, especially if play goes to the left. This move is very effective for them, though likely to be analysed and snuffed out by a wise defence.

Must say that Stringer and Hodgson are looking a dependable pairing and that young Scrum half Spencer looks very good.

Just watched the game here in HK. Gutted about the result, but can't complain.

Penalties first half killed us...and the interception. Barnes is annoying and stops the game too often.....but you play to the ref. If he is not being sharp on offside and off feet, then take a chance, move offside and slow the ball down.

Not had a chance to watch many games this season. Standouts today were Brown, Brooker, Marler (in the loose), Robshaw (would love to see the carry stats). Barritt and Saull both good too. JTH had an OK game...his handling skills have definitely improved.

Only real complaint was Sarries and their mind-numbingly boring set up for box kicks. Is it really necessary?

mid_gen wrote:
Only real complaint was Sarries and their mind-numbingly boring set up for box kicks. Is it really necessary?

You should have heard the booing from the Quins fans every time they had to wait for Sarries to play the ball...!

niwatts wrote:Likely to be the same teams in the same venue come the final in May, so an interesting prelude and a measure of the coaching teams and how they will adapt.

Oh, I would not be quite so sure about that.

LondonTiger wrote:

niwatts wrote:Likely to be the same teams in the same venue come the final in May, so an interesting prelude and a measure of the coaching teams and how they will adapt.

Oh, I would not be quite so sure about that.

I agree with LT. Quins are certainly revealing what they cant to do, as much as Saracens are revealing what they are reluctant to do.

Quins need to tighten up their discipline and Sarries will need to find a plan B because that Plan A is not a very wide ranging plan that should easily be analysed and countered.

maestegmafia wrote:

mid_gen wrote:
Only real complaint was Sarries and their mind-numbingly boring set up for box kicks. Is it really necessary?

You should have heard the booing from the Quins fans every time they had to wait for Sarries to play the ball...!

Indeed.

I was quite impressed by the level of one-eyed parochialism shown by the Quins fans around us. It reminded me of home

A thoroughly enjoyable game (except for Stringer's interminable box-kicks), and Sarries deserved the win, clinical.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't think Fitzgerald stood out as much as he has been recently. He really is a better winger, than fullback.

Are you 'lost' FR? Surely this comment was destined for another thread.

kiwi - I agree; eye patches all round where we were sat.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't think Fitzgerald stood out as much as he has been recently. He really is a better winger, than fullback.

Are you 'lost' FR? Surely this comment was destined for another thread.

kiwi - I agree; eye patches all round where we were sat.

I think the booing was justified, I have seen Saracens twice this last month and they applied the same time consuming lacklustre in both games. They seem reluctant to want to play the game.

It works, its just incredibly dull to watch especially for the impartial, I ended cheering Harlequins who seemed the more likely to try and actually do something.

Saracens set themselves up to give themselves the best chance of being successful, and that includes adding to the back of the ruck when going to box kick in order to buy their scrum half space.

Whilst it may not be entertaining it is intelligent play, and it always makes me laugh when people use phrases like "they didn't play any rugby" to describe the fact that they chose not to throw the ball around with gay abandon.

It's all rugby folks, and this is professional sport, where winning is everything, and entertainment is a secondary consideration no matter what some coaches will say before games.

Saracens played smart, and in my book that is good rugby, proved by the fact they won the game. In all honesty, despite not being a fan of either side, I am actually glad that Saracens won, and ended the unbeaten streak for Quins, as we will now see what they are made of in how they bounce back from this first AP defeat.

Still all to play for in the AP for many teams in the second half of the season, and it is going to be a serious bun fight for the play off spots. Quins need to get straight back to winning ways to avoid being dragged back down into it, will be fascinated to see how it all pans out.

“Whilst it may not be entertaining it is intelligent play, and it always makes me laugh when people use phrases like "they didn't play any rugby" to describe the fact that they chose not to throw the ball around with gay abandon.”

The game I saw had Quins living off scraps in the first half as they were starved of possession and territory. Possibly victims of their broadcast intent to 'play rugby'. So Sarries set out to stop Quins playing their offloading game. What did people expect, Sarries to just stand there and admire Quins?

But yup, Quins did manage to throw it around; notably when Marler threw it straight to Strettle for a coast in try. Marler then proceeded to try and wind Sarries up by instigating punch ups at every other breakdown. What a plank.

Quins were better for 20 minutes of the second half, but that was it. In fact Sarries produced one the two best bits of rugby of the match in releasing Short down the left via some slick handling. He was only stopped about three metres short of the try line by Monye and (I think) Brown. A little earlier Brown’s dummied kick and break from his own 22 was the other 'best bit'.

I think I was more surprised at Quins not being able to counter attack or challenge at the ruck as well as they did vs Toulouse.

Saracens are quite the known entity these days.

As I said above Sarries will need to find a plan B because that Plan A is not a very wide ranging plan that should easily be analysed and countered.

To Saracens credit what they do they do very well. But in their reluctance to do anymore than just close out narrow wins they will struggle if their opposition gets a bit of luck and scores the odd interception try. Saracens last few games they have benefitted from that kind of luck themselves.

To draw the rather obvious comparison (sorry Beshocked), Sarries play rather like the Springboks. Very solid set piece, good at the breakdown, tough blitz defence, good goalkicking, and talented if underused outside backs.

Analysing those tactics is fairly easy. Countering them can be a bit more difficult at times

Sarries being a known entity is one thing, getting through, or round the obstinate b*ggers is another.

With Hodgson at 10 they do actually string some potent back line moves together I feel.

Let's not forget that Quins also rely on a pretty solid defence and shackled Brits pretty well.

In brief instances during the game, Sarries showed that they can run the ball really well, with great pace. When they did it they looked much more dangerous than Quins.

Quins lack of grunt means they are forced to play a high tempo - offloading game. Sarries can play in a variety of ways - just a shame that they seem intent on keeping it tight.

I agree with the two posts above. Did notice that their best attacking move is always from a miss pass to outside center on a loop offsetting the on coming vogue for blitz defence that is attempting to stifle play at 12.

Maybe a flat line defence wouldn't create the dogleg they constantly exploit? Maybe a bit of ingenuity is all that is needed.

But maesteg, Hodgson is second to none in the AP for spotting the opportunity AND delivering the pinpoint pass to exploit it. Which is why one reason why Sarries are playing him at 10. There was one beauty fired out in the first half right in front of me. It totally flatfooted Quins' defence. Great skill performed at pace.

well just watched the highlight show and while it looked a bit brutal there are a lot of "one eye'd" views about sarries slowing the ball down, after mike browns fantastic dummy and break with some super support play a sarries player made the tackle and tried to play the ball on his feet, then about 5 Quins players dive in all off there feet and lie on the ball and there player and some how wayne barnes pings the sarries player for playing the ball off his feet? A lot of the rucks showed Quins players off there feet at every breakdown yet they played Wayne Barnes very well as he let them get away with it

What people are getting annoyed about is not Sarries slowing down Quins possession - rather taking an age, adding men to the back of the ruck etc, before Stringer picked up and box kicked. TBH not something i especially noticed.

But yes in their last two matches Quins have gotten away with murder at the breakdown.

I like a lot of the analysis on here and agree with virtually all of it. Kudos to all you guys. I would have posted earlier but I have been busy.

Kiwireddevil it is fair to compare Saracens to the Springboks.
As you say a few similarities.

I think every team would love to play like Leinster and whack people by 40 odd points playing free flowing rugby but this formula does not work for everyone. It's why Leinster are the European champions. They have the right balance most of us could only dream about.

I love Ozzy's summary.

The way I saw it:

Saracens started very strongly like they did in the two matches vs Ospreys - virtually catching the opposition unaware. Against Saracens you need to be at the races from the start.

Before Quins knew it they were 19-3 after 25 minutes. I thought this was mainly part to Saracens furious intensity at the breakdown which resulted in penalties, Owen Farrell's flawless kicking, a relatively comfortable scrum and David Strettle basically out there to taste some Quins' blood.

I really did think before Strettle's injury on the 41 minute mark he had put in a really strong performance. Real statement of intent from the get go when he put a massive hit on Nick Evans. He followed this up with other good tackles, two excellent breaks and of course that interception try.

As already mentioned by others Quins were trying too hard - throwing the ball around with reckless abandon. Joe Marler's interception was a silly try which should have been avoided. So close to the line and with one of the fastest players on the pitch getting the ball - only one result.

Joe Marler essentially summed up what a lot of people on 606 v2 have been saying about him. Excellent in the loose, dangerous with ball in hand (intercept aside) but his scrummaging is a real weakness which was exploited by Saracens.



Saracens are very difficult to beat because they make it so difficult for the opposition to score points. For Quins' try they had to put so much graft and effort into it, their other points were hard earned too. In comparison Saracens made the whole point scoring exercise look easily in the first half. People do criticise Farrell for his all round ability but no one can fault his kicking and that is a very worthwile weapon to have as it does make all the difference in tough encounters.

Maybe some of you are right. Maybe Saracens should cut loose more but as Quins and others have found to their cost if you do try high risk rugby it can backfire. I think Saracens controlled the breakdown battle well - hence playing at a tempo which suited Saracens not Quins and hence Quins could not build the momentum to really crack open that very powerful Saracens defence. This was down to the backrow and I thought Saull put in a very strong performance.

Nicely summarised Beshocked.

I thought Saul had a really good game for you as did Brown. You didn't seem to miss Burger at all.

It was those initial 3 penalties that killed us in the end, they forced us (wrongly) to try to play the all from everywhere which lead to the intercept. Those points were nearly all achieved from targetting the youngster Stegmann who had a shocker.

Once you had that buffer is was game in the bag as we just couldn't get the points, mainly thanks to our lack of a scrum, which was as much Johnston as it was Marler by the way people and also helped by some very very offside work to close down the outside backs.

Really thought that Wallace should have been on sooner to help stabilise the breakdown as Skinner showed last week against Toulose how important a genuine fetcher can be for us.

Still it's a very good learning experience for the team and hopefuly for the coaches and also highlights what i've been saying for ages, that we need a dirty old prop in the squad for these kinds of games.

If Wray wants to get the crowds up at Saracens (and he surely does) then he's going to have to instruct the coaches to play a more progressive game. Saracens are the only one of the top 8 I wouldn't pay to watch, and it's not like they don't have the ability (as they very occasionally show). Not many neutrals would have come away from that game thinking they can't wait to see Saracens play live again.

As for Quins scrums, the problem isn't Marler, it's Johnson. If the TH is struggling there isn't much a LH can do.

DaveM wrote:If Wray wants to get the crowds up at Saracens (and he surely does) then he's going to have to instruct the coaches to play a more progressive game. Saracens are the only one of the top 8 I wouldn't pay to watch, and it's not like they don't have the ability (as they very occasionally show). Not many neutrals would have come away from that game thinking they can't wait to see Saracens play live again.

As for Quins scrums, the problem isn't Marler, it's Johnson. If the TH is struggling there isn't much a LH can do.

Cheers for saying that Dave but it still won't stop peoples preconceived ideas about Marler, especially when Barnes starts coming out with rubbish too.

saracens do need to try to play a more entertaining style at times, it's alright while they're winning but I was there at the double header when they lost and loads of fans left before the end of the match, I can't really blame them either. If they were to hit a rough patch would they keep the support? I don't think so.