Test cricket will die if India loses 4-0

First topic message reminder :

I am living on hope since the T1 in Lords...that the Indian team will fight back in the next test.

while bowling is looking decisively better the batting is following the same pattern....can't get 300 runs.

This series may confirm and bring us out of the self denials and doubts......we will all agree...that we just don't have the batting to compete overseas.
The oldies don't have enouhg fire-power left to play BIG knocks.

the young ones and lower order are useless.

Our batting decline may be terminal.

and we may lose this series also 4-0....
the only good thing about that will be that we will not live in hope to perform better on the next tour.

Our interests as a nation in test cricket will die.....and as we move to ODI and T20 IPL etc......globally test cricket will die...because the bigger cricketing world goes where India leads them.
our Asian brother and the afro-power lobby run SA and Mugabe's Zim, ever commercially minded WI ( whose mascot is Gayle with a well known opinion on test cricket) will go where Indian interests leads them.

barring maybe Aus-eng playing ashes every year with little sponsorship money and following.

That leaves idealogically aligned with Aus-Eng but financially in penury NZ.....where their poor top cricketers have to baby sit in off seasons to make their livings
Much as their heart will be with Aus and Eng...their mouths ( read commerce) will drive them towards Indian interests

Ironically so much of the future of test cricket.....relies on the results of this series

test cricket was here before india were any good, and it will still be here, way after india are awful.

[quote="gboycottnut"]But like I said before, there is nothing wrong with the current India test team. It is just that Australia are playing amazing cricket which can overwhelm even the likes of England.[/quote]

Look again boycottnut India are in a worst place than any recent-ish past or present England team. The extent of the defeats are much quicker and deeper than even I can remember over two consecutive series. In my view it's too soon to look ahead. First watch how England fare this winter and maybe then after the SA mini series of only three tests can predictions be made.

( [i]carry on anyway we 've got to have something to talk about this year[/i] )

rich1uk wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:But like I said before, there is nothing wrong with the current India test team. It is just that Australia are playing amazing cricket which can overwhelm even the likes of England.

this was the same australia team that were bowled out for 47 against SA 2 months ago and also lost to NZ at home for the first time for about 40 years or something last month

they have also shown vulnerabilities in their batting in this series and have always looked capable of a collapse and still have issues over how to replace ponting and hussey and will also have to replace haddin soon imo

yes they look to have a good pool of seam bowling to pick from but india have been so bad with the bat in this series then you cant really tell just how good they really are. hilfenhaus and siddle looked very very average a year ago against us and have looked like world beaters here

sorry but there is alot wrong with this india team and that has made australia look better then they are

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Australia aren't quite the same team that lost to SA and NZ. Their current batting top 6 lineup looks like their strongest possible one available to them, whilst in their bowling dept, the likes of Hilfenhaus and Sid Vicious are much better bowlers than they were a year ago due to the improvements in their game made with the help of their current bowling coach Billy McDermott. India, on the other hand are still the very good test team as the one a year ago but just aren't being allowed to perform to the best of their ability due to the overall all-round brillance of this current Australian test team. It is a similar situation to the 1989 Ashes series in which England on paper had a very good team to compete against their opponents but just weren't given a sniff to get into the series at any time due to the sheer brillant play of the likes of Taylor, Steve Waugh, laughing boy Alderman and Merv Hughes.

Stellar Key wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:But like I said before, there is nothing wrong with the current India test team. It is just that Australia are playing amazing cricket which can overwhelm even the likes of England.

Look again boycottnut India are in a worst place than any recent-ish past or present England team. The extent of the defeats are much quicker and deeper than even I can remember over two consecutive series. In my view it's too soon to look ahead. First watch how England fare this winter and maybe then after the SA mini series of only three tests can predictions be made.

( carry on anyway we 've got to have something to talk about this year )

India aren't in a worst place than at any time faced by any recent past or present English team. The fact is that India are still easily capable of thrashing the likes of Sri Lanka, West Indies, New Zealand, Bangladesh and Pakistan in a 4 test match series by a scoreline of 4-0. It is just that Australia are playing out of their skins at the minute and are a much more improved and better test side than the one which got hammered in the last ashes series.

I can't agree with this . Even around 20 years ago when England 8 lost out of 10 test matches the core batting still had a future, in my view some of these Indian batsmen should consider retirement. If India carry on with a similar side into next year then I think they are making a mistake. They should look to make changes by the next test series.

I agree with Stellar Key, India needs a revamp. As successful as they have been with Tendulkar, dravid, Laxman, Sehwag and Gambhir, they need to realise it is time for a phasing in of new bastmen. Get rid of the weakest player now, and at least one more every 8 months or so. Within 3 years they will have a revitalised batting line up and some with varying experience.

The alternative is to get rid of two now and another 2 next year.

test cricket will still be here even though india are now declining with their greats declining

there's a new no1 in town!

Stellar Key wrote: I can't agree with this . Even around 20 years ago when England 8 lost out of 10 test matches the core batting still had a future, in my view some of these Indian batsmen should consider retirement. If India carry on with a similar side into next year then I think they are making a mistake. They should look to make changes by the next test series.

I'm not sure this is quite correct. If you take 2001 say, England's main batsmen were Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe, and their bowlers Caddick and Gough. None of those were particularly spring chickens. And England were absolutely mauled in the first 2 tests.

However I agree that this has been a poor Indian side. Perhaps the correct parallel is between the Indian side which toured England and the England side of '01. Both were on highs at the time, and both suffered heavy defeats. England of course carried on improving (picking players like Trescothick and Strauss, and Flintoff, and of course a whole host of young bowlers) to set the side up for what is happening now. Whether India are willing to do the same (famously of course Atherton, Thorpe and Gough were all pushed out - can India push out Dravid, Laxman and Zaheer when the time comes? The evidence so far seems to suggest not) is doubtful...

Test cricket will never die..too much in the way of heritage.......

Indian cricket is just going through the same transitional stage as Sri Lankan....

Would be nice If they showed a little more fight though!!

People talk about Laxman going but maybe Sehwag should be given a kick up the rump too!!

[quote="Mike Selig"][quote="Stellar Key"] I can't agree with this . Even around 20 years ago when England 8 lost out of 10 test matches the core batting still had a future, in my view some of these Indian batsmen should consider retirement. If India carry on with a similar side into next year then I think they are making a mistake. They should look to make changes by the next test series. [/quote]

I'm not sure this is quite correct. If you take 2001 say, England's main batsmen were Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe, and their bowlers Caddick and Gough. None of those were particularly spring chickens. And England were absolutely mauled in the first 2 tests.

However I agree that this has been a poor Indian side. Perhaps the correct parallel is between the Indian side which toured England and the England side of '01. Both were on highs at the time, and both suffered heavy defeats. England of course carried on improving (picking players like Trescothick and Strauss, and Flintoff, and of course a whole host of young bowlers) to set the side up for what is happening now. Whether India are willing to do the same (famously of course Atherton, Thorpe and Gough were all pushed out - can India push out Dravid, Laxman and Zaheer when the time comes? The evidence so far seems to suggest not) is doubtful...[/quote]

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When I first made the comparison to boycuttnut I was thinking of the 88 and 89 seasons. Though matters for england were more complicated as they started well and then became undermined by the loss of Gatting and ensuing selection issues. 1989 seems more comparable as like India confidence ebbed away and the series became one sided. However the point I'm labouring to make was our batting was experienced and at times we competed and made runs and although they lost they put up a fight. The likes of Gooch, Gower, Lamb, Gatting , Smith still looked good for a few years yet.

I saw some of the 2001 tests but most of this was the last three tests. In my view problems for England started with losing the Old Trafford game against Pakistan and a miserable one day series. Add in the injuries with Vaughan, Hoggard and Flintoff and we struggled as momentum went. Our problem was putting out the same side 2 tests running along with the batting. Looking back it seemed grim but for the brief sunshine of Headingley

I think i've drifted away from the point...

To your question India take the 'clippers' to the batting and bowling, having mulled it over and considered these legends it will take diplomacy. Perhaps if I'd observed the Indian board's handling of players more closely I'd be surer but I suspect even after these two memorable series a gradual change of players and not a sudden move.

I'd take issue with some of Mike's post : Atherton was hardly "pushed out" - in fact he had been struggling with his back problems for some time , and had probably gone on a little longer than he personally would have chosen , out of a sense of duty (whatever else one might say of him , he was a supreme "team" man). By 2001 he had had enough and was always likely to retire regardless of results in that series.

And of course England at that time had not been to number one in the pecking order - rather they had just had an encouraging year or so after previously hitting rock bottom. That Ashes series knocked them back down and some more rebuilding ensued.

I'm not sure there is any clear precedent for what this Indian team is experiencing - I cannot recall any previous case of a Number 1 team getting so heavily squashed in two series almost together - most top sides slip more gradually away , though this may be due to an accident of scheduling : had India not gone to Australia at this time and instead been beating up - Sri Lanka, for example , their decline may not have been so obvious.
As it is , the nature of this defeat will probably be good for them in the end as it will surely prompt some firm , and hopefully considered, action by the selectors.

Spare me all the 'Crocodile tears' about how Test cricket will die if India get beaten 4-0, because although India is needed in the test arena we can do without a team that has no skill, fight, stomach or will ( outside of India) in Test competitions. But also what would you have England and Australia do about it ? maybe throw a match or 2 , or perhaps allow the Indians to reach 300 a few times in a series to assuage their feelings.

No, the Indians have to, in my opinion take a long hard look at themselves and put things right, and not be mollicoddled and patronised by 'Serious' cricket nations.

I think people have short memories. Until this series, Ponting looked past it and was getting out for soft dismissals. There were calls for his head. He made two fifties in the Boxing Day test and then a century in the 2nd and even though he failed in the third, Warner had taken the pressure off.

My point is that India can still bat. They just need to take a long hard look at themselves and show some fight. Calls for starting afresh are premature. They still have much to give. But they should definitely be told their positions are hanging by a thread and they need to knuckle down and perform.

Maybe this series will shift the emphasis away from the short game in India and make them realise they´re being shown up in the test arena and need to make some important adjustnments.

Kia, you are correct, India can still bat, it more a case of momentum is so against them now, the question remains if they can mentally pick themselves up for the fourth test.

India are in the Toliet metaphorically and will be lucky to escape without an innings defeat, which is shameful, but thats what hapens when 'good ole Showbiz' takes over a sport, with the IPL being a prime example!!

I only hope that England can defeat India at home, as that will really upset those Indians still believing that their country is a top 5 team. Because the sooner this happens, and the Blinkers come off, then the sooner they can start to repair things and focus on test matches. I won't be holding my breath.

Would be great if England could beat them on the sub-continent. Cricket would survive even that... hopefully!

Test cricket will survive, perhaps in a more truncated version, with less teams participating, but survive it will.

As another poster suggested, Test cricket was around before India participated and it will remain around, as it is the finest, most compelling version of this great game. How anyone can continually enjoy the fare from the IPL and all this limited over B.S. is beyond me, as i need the meat and drink of cricket that only a 5 day test can provide. Long may it continue!!