Leicester vs Sale Match Thread

[nathan]

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I'll try and keep this thread up to date with match scores etc.

[niwatts]

Yes, he'll probably go for Barritt. Mind you, Lancaster did ignore him last season and go for Twelvetrees (who wasn't being picked by Cockerill) instead, and there's not much point in having excellent outside backs if they don't get the ball. Bottom line is I really don't want to see England's backs playing like Saracens'.

I don't think how Saracens play is indicative of their players' abilities and natural tendencies. What has made Saracens successful is that they are highly organised and mostly play to a structured gameplan, but players like Hodgson, Barritt, Strettle & Goode have played above and beyond those roles for other clubs, England and the Saxons.

I'm not sure about Lancaster 'ignoring' Barritt for the Saxons last season. He certainly started Twelvetrees for the games against the Wolfhounds & Italy A, but Barritt was on the bench for both those games and came on for Twelvetrees for half an hour of each. He was due to be in the Churchill Cup Saxons squad, but an operation on an hernia from the AP Final the week before had ruled him out.

[DaveM]

I don't think there is any doubt about the quality of player Sarries have in their backs, just about the way they choose to play rugby.

Lancaster picked Twelvetrees ahead of Barritt, and if you want to get the most out of your outside backs then a player with Twelvetrees' distribution is the way to go. Barritt would be better defensively at this stage, so it depends on the balance of the side and how Lancaster wants to play.

A wildcard is Farrell at 12. He is miles from being able to play 10 at international level, but could play IC and take over the kicking from Flood (who seems to me to be struggling slightly). You could see him as a halfway house between Twelvetrees and Barritt, but whether he has the defensive organisation, given the likely presence of an inexperienced 13, is doubtful.

[LondonTiger]

I don't think there is any doubt about the quality of player Sarries have in their backs, just about the way they choose to play rugby.

Funny thing is the most attacking side to appear at Welford Road this season was Saracens (followed by Saints and Exeter).

[DaveM]

Yes, but the early season expansiveness has disappeared and been replaced with negative rugby. It's very frustrating, and conditions do not excuse it as the excellent tries scored by Tigers and Sale at the weekend show.

[niwatts]

It's the way the team are instructed to play rather than how the players choose to play.

Yes, as I stated, Twelvetrees was started ahead of Barritt for the games against the Wolfhounds & Italy A, but Lancaster certainly didn't "ignore him", they effectively shared both games, Twelvetrees playing 10mins more.

if you want to get the most out of your outside backs then a player with Twelvetrees' distribution is the way to go.

I think that very much depends on your gameplan and what stage of development your team is in.

Twelvetrees has the better distribution and brings in your outside backs in a classical gameplan, but if Lancaster chooses to have the outside backs coming in more and working narrower, then Barritt provides the better platform.

Your ability to get your attacking backs into the game also very much depends on how your forwards are performing, and I think for what many of us are expecting to be a new backrow combination and possibly entirely new 2nd row (Lawes might be out), Barritt will be of more assistance to their needs, particularly in how he supports his fellow backs in generating quick ball in midfield breakdowns (manna for outside backs on multiphase ball looking for defensive gaps).

I see Twelvetrees as the player that will rise to the top in the next couple of years and be the most complete option, but at this stage for England, with Barritt performing as he is and the likelihood of a number of new players coming in, I think Barritt will facilitate them better for the moment, providing the necessary midfield spine in a new look team for the other limbs to flex off.

[DaveM]

Absolutely it is down to instructions. I hope for England's sake they are coming from McCall and not Farrell.

When I say ignored I'm talking about who he chose to start with. It's worth remembering that Barritt was a regular at 12 for Saracens where-as I'm not sure Twelvetrees started a single game for Leicester at 12 before his call up (and I think he only started one at 12 for Leicester after he played for the Saxons, with Cockerill prefering Allen). This says to me that Lancaster rated Twelvetrees and his style of play considerably ahead of Barritt.

I think we are both saying the same thing - the choice at IC depends on the balance of the rest of the side and how Lancaster wants to play. Billy has certainly played himself into contention in the last couple of games though.

[LondonTiger]

I do not think you can place any meaning to who is played ahead of another for the Saxons. It is treated as a place to view players and not the selection of the next in line necessarily.

The england management knew what Barritt had to offer, but wanted to see what 36 + Manu brought.

[DaveM]

And then they kept selecting 36 through the summer. Why not look at someone else in the Churchhill Cup if you just want to see what someone offers? And did the England management know what Barritt brings? How many representative games has he played?

[LondonTiger]

A couple of Churchill cups I thought.

While I always like one of our players being talked up, I do think Barritt is ahead of 36.

[yappysnap]

Barritt had already been called up to the senior team as injury cover twice and gone on the summer tour to Oz, I think he is next in line and they just wanted to see how 12T's went as they don't see him at his club much.

[formerly known as Sam]

You could see him as a halfway house between Twelvetrees and Barritt, but whether he has the defensive organisation, given the likely presence of an inexperienced 13, is doubtful..

I'd rate Barritt's passing game as good as Farrell's if not a little better in terms of vision. Farrell would offer a great tactical kicking option and a more reliable point scoring boot though at 19/20 he wouldn't offer the required leadership to boss the midfield. Barritt offers that with some to spare which is why I think he's likely to be the front runner.

And then they kept selecting 36 through the summer. Why not look at someone else in the Churchhill Cup if you just want to see what someone offers?

Well Barritt was injured for the Churchill Cup so unavailable and there wasn't a great deal of movement within the Saxons starting 15 for that competition. Clegg and Twelvetrees were constants. JTH came on breifly but at the time Smith was making comments about wanting his 12 to be able to pass and kick and so I'd imagine the first team coaches were very keen to look at Twelvetrees. Remember this was on the back of a season where Billy had played big games at 10 and 13 (AP Final of the bench) with some appearences in the AP at 12 (e.g. against Gloucester).

And did the England management know what Barritt brings? How many representative games has he played?.

He's been in previous Saxons squads and been called up from the Churchill Cup to first team summer tours (Australia) previously. He's no stranger to the Saxons or Lancaster.

[DaveM]

Twelvetrees started every Saxons game last season at 12, despite only starting (as I recall) 1 game for Tigers at 12, sticking with a player basically being snubbed by his own club. That's more than just wanting a look at someone, that's grooming a player to move to the senior side.

I'm still missing this passing range of Barritt. I'll keep looking. He was involved in the mega tour of Australia, has played for the Saxons and was obviously in the managements' thoughts.

Trinder has an excellent chance of starting the next England game. Lancaster can either go with the experienced, defensively proven 12 or with Trinder's centre partner from the Churchill Cup. He'll probably go with Barriit (unless he does decide to fast-track Farrell, which I do think you'd mainly do because you don't trust Flood's kicking). I'd be happy with Billy in the squad as there's a fair chance he play at some point during the tournament, and I certainly hope that come the autumn Billy is the first choice 12. That would be a fun team to watch I reckon.

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