Wlad K

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Why does he split opinions so much. Sure he's been levelled and his chin has been found wanting. He's not the most exciting boxer either. Very safety, jab jab jab jab until the opponent goes to sleep along with a non German crowd. But damn, he is very effective at what he does.

He reminds me of Lewis but a slightly better boxer. Better jab and equally concussive puncher when he decides to unleash the right. Many may say that his opposition is not up to much. But a certain ATG HW had a bum of the month contest and not many seem to hold that against him. Also Lewis has been sparked out twice, yet many seem to ignore that and claim Wlad is chinny. His opposition is on par with Lewis also. Its not as though he's fighting blown up LHW who got beat by a welterweight or past it HWs. He's fighting abd beating the best available with ease.

If he were British or american, would we rate him higher? In terms of achievement, I'd rank him in the top 10/top 15 ATG Heavyweights.

What say you?

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I personally think Lewis would have been able to jab him to death were he fully prepared for a tougher fight than Johnson, taking one uppercut doesn't necessarily mean he keeps taking them.

Lewis landed quite a few big punches, it wasn't just those big uppercuts in round 6. The thing was unlike these small fighters who Lewis did just jab boringly all night, Tua, Holyfield, Mercer etc.. Klitschko had the arm length to do just the same, it's tough to out jab a guy taller and stronger than you.

It was never Lewis' style to try and out jab fighters he had no fear of, he feared Tua, Holyfield and Tyson so elected to stay behind his jab, there size didn't play a part in that.

I would say it was for the most part that Lewis was a conservative fighter and using the jab most of the time was the way he usually fought.

Try telling that to Ruddock, Grant, Golota, Briggs and Botha, if he feared an opponents power that is when the jab became a more dominant weapon, having watched the Vitali fight many times he didn't respect his power at all.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You're completely missing the point, the added 7lbs highlighted how poorly he had trained, don't think we could say by any stretch of the imagination that he was near his best that night.

Maybe he did train purely, i don't dispute this but it's not like so many other fighters who have put on huge amount's of weight and still not dropped off much. So i just don't see the argument that Lewis was nothing like the fighter who fought Tyson the year before, he came up against a good opponent who could expose some weaknesses, Lewis was always a slow starter, so in that sense the extra pounds made little difference. It's just this time the guy was able to get past his early pawing and not let him off the hook.

monty junior wrote:So are you saying if Lewis had came in half a stone lighter he would have won all 6 rounds? what tosh. The fact is he was extremely slow at the start got caught multiple times, and was in a lot of troubles and for much of the time was beaten to the punch. I give him credit for finding a way to win but he flattered to decieve not because of his weight but because he actually fought a top fighter for once.

Thats how I see it also.

monty junior wrote:So are you saying if Lewis had came in half a stone lighter he would have won all 6 rounds? what tosh. The fact is he was extremely slow at the start got caught multiple times, and was in a lot of troubles and for much of the time was beaten to the punch. I give him credit for finding a way to win but he flattered to decieve not because of his weight but because he actually fought a top fighter for once.

You cannot be serious about that last bit. Who has Vitali fought that is decent apart from Lewis. It's his preparation that was wrong not just his weight. Vitali's size was always going to be a factor but Lewis could have been better prepared.

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You're completely missing the point, the added 7lbs highlighted how poorly he had trained, don't think we could say by any stretch of the imagination that he was near his best that night.

Maybe he did train purely, i don't dispute this but it's not like so many other fighters who have put on huge amount's of weight and still not dropped off much. So i just don't see the argument that Lewis was nothing like the fighter who fought Tyson the year before, he came up against a good opponent who could expose some weaknesses, Lewis was always a slow starter, so in that sense the extra pounds made little difference. It's just this time the guy was able to get past his early pawing and not let him off the hook.

What weakness? That he can win fights with just his right hand. Do you think Lewis was near peak condition for the fight? His timing was so off yet still managed to make a mess of Vitalis face, were he better prepared then you are looking at a legitimate knockout.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I personally think Lewis would have been able to jab him to death were he fully prepared for a tougher fight than Johnson, taking one uppercut doesn't necessarily mean he keeps taking them.

Lewis landed quite a few big punches, it wasn't just those big uppercuts in round 6. The thing was unlike these small fighters who Lewis did just jab boringly all night, Tua, Holyfield, Mercer etc.. Klitschko had the arm length to do just the same, it's tough to out jab a guy taller and stronger than you.

It was never Lewis' style to try and out jab fighters he had no fear of, he feared Tua, Holyfield and Tyson so elected to stay behind his jab, there size didn't play a part in that.

I would say it was for the most part that Lewis was a conservative fighter and using the jab most of the time was the way he usually fought.

Try telling that to Ruddock, Grant, Golota, Briggs and Botha, if he feared an opponents power that is when the jab became a more dominant weapon, having watched the Vitali fight many times he didn't respect his power at all.

Fair enough but i don't think any of those guys had more power than Vitali in his prime, they never really knocked out anyone of great note. Even if he didn't respect his power he sure would have respected it after the first couple of rounds when he was on the verge of being floored. Lewis was known as a smart fighter but he must have been pretty dumb to not respect a guy who ko'd every opponent he'd won against.

Lewis had a good jab and that's all you need against average opponents like Vitali...but he was past it.

Anyway you spin the Klits careers..has to be said they are basically ordinary..

Tua without doubt had far more power than Vitali, it's not even close. There is a big big difference between a stoppage and a KO, Vitali is not a KO artist and never has been.

The Galveston Giant wrote:

monty junior wrote:So are you saying if Lewis had came in half a stone lighter he would have won all 6 rounds? what tosh. The fact is he was extremely slow at the start got caught multiple times, and was in a lot of troubles and for much of the time was beaten to the punch. I give him credit for finding a way to win but he flattered to decieve not because of his weight but because he actually fought a top fighter for once.

You cannot be serious about that last bit. Who has Vitali fought that is decent apart from Lewis. It's his preparation that was wrong not just his weight. Vitali's size was always going to be a factor but Lewis could have been better prepared.

He hasn't had the opportunity unfortunately, the last great heavyweight he could have faced to get over the Lewis defeat was Lewis himself. Lewis fought a lot of good fighter's but Holyfield and Tyson were the only fighter's more dangerous than Vitali at their best in my opinion.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lewis was a finely tuned heavyweight, he was not like Samuel Peter or most of the crud around at the moment so 7lbs could and possibly did have a profound effect, it also highlights how poorly he had trained, all his own fault but Vitali gets far too much credit for winning 4 rounds against him.

Sorry I dont buy that. Lewis had fought at over 250lbs against Grant (if i recall properly) and looked good. Give Vit the rightful credit he deserves for his performance.

Vitali lost Az, Lewis won so deserves the credit. Against Grant he was a trim 247lbs but in the first Rahmann fight he was over 250lbs.

I haven't taken any credit away from Lewis. I posted this earlier for this particular reason.

Before anyone gets any funny ideas. Lewis wasn't lucky to win that fight. He punched Vit causing the cut to open. Nothing lucky about that. Had it been a butt or the laced area of the glove then luck would come into play. He hit him with a good punch and opened him up..

According to boxrec, he was 250 against Botha, 249 against Tua, 249 1.4 against Tyson and a career high 256 1/2 against Vit. But through his career he has been getting progressively heavier and fluctuating between the 245-250 mark.

I doubt that 7lbs made a hell of a lot of difference.

I think Vitali is always going to be a tough and hard nights work for Lewis regardless.

I dont place a great deal of emphasis on the weight. In some ways the added bulk helped Lewis given the amount of clinching and leaning involved in the fight against a similar sized opponent. Vitali may have found it easier to win those battles against a lighter Lewis.

I dont draw any drastic conclusions from the fight. I doubt any version of Lewis has an easy fight against Vitali and I would agree with monty junior that much of Lewis performance or supposed lack of it has to be attributed to facing a top heavyweight that could match him in physical size as opposed to Lewis simply not turning up. I think fights between the two would always be quite competitive.

Monty, Vitali hasn't KO'd every oppponent he's won against, you're confusing KO wins with TKO stoppages. Vitali isn't noted as a one-punch KO artist...ask the likes of Danny Williams and Corrie Sanders who were on the wrong end of one sided beatings but were stopped on their feet. Vitali's arguably improved with age and yet still couldn't put Shannon Briggs down.

Vitali's poor punching technique is the reason he doesn't take people out cleanly

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Tua without doubt had far more power than Vitali, it's not even close. There is a big big difference between a stoppage and a KO, Vitali is not a KO artist and never has been.

You never had Tua on the list. So i never disputed Tua could knock a guy clean out with his left hook, the problem is he was predictable, Vitali could mix up his attack. He could win in a variety of ways whereas Tua could only win one way. Even if it was a TKO i'd rather be Vitali than just trying to avoid a jab all night and swing constantly for some glory highlight reel punch.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis had a good jab and that's all you need against average opponents like Vitali...but he was past it.

Anyway you spin the Klits careers..has to be said they are basically ordinary..

The Klits are the very best in an ordinary division. Perhaps also because the make the others look very ordinary.

Lewis was outjabbed by Bruno of all people. His jab wasn't that great.

That's all revisionist though, at the time of the fight itself he wasn't seen as any better than the likes of Golota, Tua or Grant, all three were expected to test Lewis whereas Vitali wasn't.

monty junior wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Tua without doubt had far more power than Vitali, it's not even close. There is a big big difference between a stoppage and a KO, Vitali is not a KO artist and never has been.

You never had Tua on the list. So i never disputed Tua could knock a guy clean out with his left hook, the problem is he was predictable, Vitali could mix up his attack. He could win in a variety of ways whereas Tua could only win one way. Even if it was a TKO i'd rather be Vitali than just trying to avoid a jab all night and swing constantly for some glory highlight reel punch.

Tua, Tyson and Holyfield are the three fighters I named.

DAVE667 wrote:Monty, Vitali hasn't KO'd every oppponent he's won against, you're confusing KO wins with TKO stoppages. Vitali isn't noted as a one-punch KO artist...ask the likes of Danny Williams and Corrie Sanders who were on the wrong end of one sided beatings but were stopped on their feet. Vitali's arguably improved with age and yet still couldn't put Shannon Briggs down.

Vitali's poor punching technique is the reason he doesn't take people out cleanly

Williams spent most of the night on the floor so i wouldn't take much from that. Vitali was what 39? when he fought Briggs, he's smarter and perhaps more accurate with age but he hasn't hit anywhere near as hard since he got back from his 4 years off. Unsurprisingly. By the way i know Dave, i basically meant nobody had survived the full twelve without being stopped

DAVE667 wrote:Monty, Vitali hasn't KO'd every oppponent he's won against, you're confusing KO wins with TKO stoppages. Vitali isn't noted as a one-punch KO artist...ask the likes of Danny Williams and Corrie Sanders who were on the wrong end of one sided beatings but were stopped on their feet. Vitali's arguably improved with age and yet still couldn't put Shannon Briggs down.

Vitali's poor punching technique is the reason he doesn't take people out cleanly

Vit gives a beatdown. Its more cruel actually that a one punch KO.

I dont think he's improved. He's much slower now but a more inteligent boxer.....through experience no doubt. Haye will beat him.

I hadn't looked too much into the weights, by sight it looked like muscle had turned to fat also. His face was way fatter, his abdomen fleshy and more importantly as Ghosty said his balance and timing were away, some of his best attributes, Vitali obviously played his part in making them worse but i believe a better prepared Lewis lands a lot cleaner faster.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's all revisionist though, at the time of the fight itself he wasn't seen as any better than the likes of Golota, Tua or Grant, all three were expected to test Lewis whereas Vitali wasn't.

Golota is a wierd one. He literally froze like a dear in headlights. Lewis did what was required against him. Ditto Grant who the yanks built up. Tua did his training in burger king and should have seen a barber also. But you cant fault Lewis for thise fights. Despatched them and outboxed Tua even when weighing 250lbs.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's all revisionist though, at the time of the fight itself he wasn't seen as any better than the likes of Golota, Tua or Grant, all three were expected to test Lewis whereas Vitali wasn't.

What makes you think that? Vitali was the best fight that could be made at the time and was seen so by virtually everyone. Wlad had lost to Sanders and everyone else was hopeless. Grant was a hype job and beat a washed up Golota who quit, Golota looked good against a shot brain damaged Bowe, but he did seem to have something although he was a mental case. Vitali was seen as a big strong guy who could cause a lot of problems ,who had only had one defeat due to a shoulder injury and a huge amount of stoppages and had won a title. Nobody realistically expected Tua or Grant to do anything, Golota had some good boxing skills so it could be argued he had a chance, but was exposed big time.

azania wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis had a good jab and that's all you need against average opponents like Vitali...but he was past it.

Anyway you spin the Klits careers..has to be said they are basically ordinary..

The Klits are the very best in an ordinary division. Perhaps also because the make the others look very ordinary.

Lewis was outjabbed by Bruno of all people. His jab wasn't that great.

"Like being hit in the face with a telegraph pole" someone once said. Anyway, watch the Lewis/Bruno fight again and whilst Bruno gets his jab off first, most of them are caught/parried by Lewis' gloves. It's enough to keep Lewis off balance which is one of the purposes of the jab

The K's do most things well but nothing spectacularly. However, in this current climate, it's enough to get them to the top and keep them there. Also, fighting the likes of Chisora and Mormeck isn't going to trouble them greatly is it?

azania wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis had a good jab and that's all you need against average opponents like Vitali...but he was past it.

Anyway you spin the Klits careers..has to be said they are basically ordinary..

The Klits are the very best in an ordinary division. Perhaps also because the make the others look very ordinary.

Lewis was outjabbed by Bruno of all people. His jab wasn't that great.

They fights were ten years apart though, Lewis had a great jab near the end of his career.

Think they did some psychological evaluation of Golota and found he had very high hyperarousal so was always likely to freeze up.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think they did some psychological evaluation of Golota and found he had very high hyperarousal so was always likely to freeze up.

He used to pull some funny faces when it got a bit heated.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's all revisionist though, at the time of the fight itself he wasn't seen as any better than the likes of Golota, Tua or Grant, all three were expected to test Lewis whereas Vitali wasn't.

Golota is a wierd one. He literally froze like a dear in headlights. Lewis did what was required against him. Ditto Grant who the yanks built up. Tua did his training in burger king and should have seen a barber also. But you cant fault Lewis for thise fights. Despatched them and outboxed Tua even when weighing 250lbs.

Indeed although even the mighty Chris Byrd managed to outpoint Tua

Grant was scared of the thought of being hit, ultimate glass chin.

A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

monty junior wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Monty, Vitali hasn't KO'd every oppponent he's won against, you're confusing KO wins with TKO stoppages. Vitali isn't noted as a one-punch KO artist...ask the likes of Danny Williams and Corrie Sanders who were on the wrong end of one sided beatings but were stopped on their feet. Vitali's arguably improved with age and yet still couldn't put Shannon Briggs down.

Vitali's poor punching technique is the reason he doesn't take people out cleanly

Williams spent most of the night on the floor so i wouldn't take much from that. Vitali was what 39? when he fought Briggs, he's smarter and perhaps more accurate with age but he hasn't hit anywhere near as hard since he got back from his 4 years off. Unsurprisingly. By the way i know Dave, i basically meant nobody had survived the full twelve without being stopped

Didn't realise Briggs had managed to halt the ravages of time and remain a sprightly 20-something! Vitali teed off on a shot fighter all night and still couldn't put him over. His lack of technique reduces the power he can get into his punches.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

His ranking was already high. Its the heart issue that went up. Especially after the Byrd fight where he quit.

He was ranked around the 6/7 mark prior to Lewis and afterwards it increased.

Tua and a shot Tyson may be lacking in many areas but to Lewis they are more dangerous fighters to face as you would expect both to knock him out if they catch him cleanly but you wouldn't expect that from Vitali.

As to the point about Grant being scared of being hit, don't make me laugh he could have stayed down against Golota and a lot sooner against Lewis if that was the case.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

His ranking was already high. Its the heart issue that went up. Especially after the Byrd fight where he quit.

I don't hold the Byrd loss against Vitali as he dislocated his shoulder so no shame in pulling out. We can't all be like Danny Williams in that respect. No-one criticised Hopkins for failing to continue in this last fight do they? (I don't count Dawson as he's an idiot)

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He was ranked around the 6/7 mark prior to Lewis and afterwards it increased.

Tua and a shot Tyson may be lacking in many areas but to Lewis they are more dangerous fighters to face as you would expect both to knock him out if they catch him cleanly but you wouldn't expect that from Vitali.

As to the point about Grant being scared of being hit, don't make me laugh he could have stayed down against Golota and a lot sooner against Lewis if that was the case.

Only inboxing can a defeat improve your world ranking.

Lewis was always moree cautious against huge punchers. Who wouldn't. He didn't trust his chin and rightly so. His chin was dodgy imo.

Lewis exposed Grant. But great performance as he wasn't to know that Grant was a fraud. Indeed most American writers chose Grant over Lewis prior to that fight. They even bitched about Lewis holding and hitting. They couldn't take it when one of their saviours got outclassd and exposed. Lewis was primed and ready and did a number on him.

I remember when they touched gloves and Grant said his usual "God bless you". Lewis gave him an icy stare and went on to destroy him (yes destroyed).

But lets not take credit away from Vit for his performance.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

His ranking was already high. Its the heart issue that went up. Especially after the Byrd fight where he quit.

Bit harsh. Well ahead and never really looked in trouble. That said, some fighters would never quit. Williams, Abraham(s) etc...

I think Vitali has got a lot of heart...just his talent that's in question....

One thinks that If he was fighting in the 40's he'd be one of Joe's bum of the months...

Everything about the guy's boxing is ordinary....like Carnera it's his height and reach that win him fights and the fact the division is full of doggy doo doo..

johnson2 wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

His ranking was already high. Its the heart issue that went up. Especially after the Byrd fight where he quit.

Bit harsh. Well ahead and never really looked in trouble. That said, some fighters would never quit. Williams, Abraham(s) etc...

Not intended to be harsh. He 'retired'...stopped fighting....quit. All the same thing.

azania wrote:

johnson2 wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A lot people expected Tua and Grant to do something at the time of the fights themselves, Vitali on the other hand was seen as a fighter without heart who couldn't live with a top heavyweight, he had a solid ranking prior to the Lewis fight but it was only afterwards that it shot up.

His ranking was already high. Its the heart issue that went up. Especially after the Byrd fight where he quit.

Bit harsh. Well ahead and never really looked in trouble. That said, some fighters would never quit. Williams, Abraham(s) etc...

Not intended to be harsh. He 'retired'...stopped fighting....quit. All the same thing.

Appreciate its means the same thing, but one has to look at the reasons behind it. He didnt quit in the same way Ortiz did against Maidana.

I realise that. I was critical of him for that a few weeks ago. With hindsight I was too harsh on him.

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lewis had a good jab and that's all you need against average opponents like Vitali...but he was past it.

Anyway you spin the Klits careers..has to be said they are basically ordinary..

The Klits are the very best in an ordinary division. Perhaps also because the make the others look very ordinary.

Lewis was outjabbed by Bruno of all people. His jab wasn't that great.

"Like being hit in the face with a telegraph pole" someone once said. Anyway, watch the Lewis/Bruno fight again and whilst Bruno gets his jab off first, most of them are caught/parried by Lewis' gloves. It's enough to keep Lewis off balance which is one of the purposes of the jab

The K's do most things well but nothing spectacularly. However, in this current climate, it's enough to get them to the top and keep them there. Also, fighting the likes of Chisora and Mormeck isn't going to trouble them greatly is it?

Same with Lewis.

Doesn't have one of the most devastating right hands in heavyweight history at all.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Doesn't have one of the most devastating right hands in heavyweight history at all.

No he doesn't.

Lennox Lewis quite clearly has one of the best right hands in the division plus being better that the pair in almost every department helps.

I thought his jab was up there with the likes of Holmes and Liston easy.

Think Lewis had quality power....Wouldn't say he was Foreman type deadly.....but usually If he landed people went...

Ruddock..Rahman etc will testify to that..

GG

I think Lewis' jab, right hook and right uppercut were average to be honest with you.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think Lewis had quality power....Wouldn't say he was Foreman type deadly.....but usually If he landed people went...

Ruddock..Rahman etc will testify to that..

Only Shavers had Foremanesque power though.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lennox Lewis quite clearly has one of the best right hands in the division plus being better that the pair in almost every department helps.

He had good power no doubt. But not in the division's history. Bigger hitters didn't become champs.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:GG

I think Lewis' jab, right hook and right uppercut were average to be honest with you.

I liked his jab Ghosty especially nearer the end of his career. He got lazy and pawed with it a lot but i thought it was great when he decided to use it properly. I also liked his uppercuts but i agree they were nothing special.

The Galveston Giant wrote:I thought his jab was up there with the likes of Holmes and Liston easy.

Good grief not a chance in hell. His jab lacked snap and was often lazy. Bruno had a better jab. Bowe was superior in that department. I'd even say Wlad had a better jab,

I don't think the Vitali fight was a highlight for Lewis...Galvy!!!

Certainly HBO thought he got lucky....It was a win but it wasn't the superb all-round performance he showed in the 2nd Rahman fight.....For me his greatest performance.....

Lewis is a great heavy but for me seemed to lack a defining fight..

Holy - beaten twice by Bowe and then Moorer....
Tyson - lost twice to Holy....
Ruddock....lost twice to Tyson..

Certainly miss him though..

If he wasn't in shape it was his problem...

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lennox Lewis quite clearly has one of the best right hands in the division plus being better that the pair in almost every department helps.

He had good power no doubt. But not in the division's history. Bigger hitters didn't become champs.

The fact he could deliver that power with such regularity is what sets it aside, Shavers had more power but I would say Lewis had a far better right hand.