Step Up or Step Off, Bute...

First topic message reminder :

So, bit of a harsh one on the golden boy of Canada here, but hopefully justified.

Lucian Bute: quick, powerful, great left, great uppercut, slightly pawing jab, nice balance, nice body work, a real talent.

This is why i find him frustrating. I mean look at his record, not one, one, world level fighter on there. This man is in his 30s, this man has spent so much time at home he may well be on house arrest, this man is banking more than Ward and Froch with his TV deals and home crowds. So i ask you, is this right?

He gives great performances you say... well of course he does, he's fighting cans, hags and aging bums. Mendy? Johnson? Magee? Brinkley? (who). I mean where are these fighters ranked? who have they scalped along the way? Johnson is a name, but nothing more, absolutely nothing more these days. And Bute spent hours sparring with him so that's a cherry pick, surely.

There are two schools of thought with Bute, but only one pending question. Will he step up this year and fight away from home against a world level opponent, or will he step off and continue to fight cans at home but without all the accolade from the critics?

If he signs to fight Froch at home on a two fight deal then i will be annoyed, as this for me, is the fence. Fight him in America i say. No more Drone type contracts where the ego needs to be rubbed before a fight can be made.

Step up or step off, Lucien.

D-Man

davidemore wrote:Boon it is a sea within a sea!

Think ying and yang, and musing about abstract thoughts that have no real meaning! Circles and lines!

Back to boxing. Cleverly is fighting a complete bum, nice to see him step back a bit to hone skills, but not this far back!

Who is to blame? Clev or Warren? Is Clev now spineless?

I think my point has been proven. Boxers are help pracitcally hostage by their promoters/managers. And Clev is no fool dragged off the streets to fight as a way of securing a future.

let it go AZ, and cleverly is in a bad place, not for him, for boxing.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

If its that easy all boxers would be doing that. Read up on the issues between Witherspoon and King. Watson and Duff, Holmes and King, Ali and King. Norton and Arum. McGuigan and Eastwood. The list is endless.

azania wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Speaking of duff opposition, has anyone else seen the announcement of Cleverly's new opponent for February 25? Dear me...

My case in point. Clev called out practically every active LHW and what does he get? I suppose we should all call Clev spineless and he should leave Warren.

Our case as much as yours Az. He can choose to ride the Warren gravy train or go out and chase the best fights with another promoter.

azania wrote:

I think my point has been proven. Boxers are help pracitcally hostage by their promoters/managers.

I'm sorry but that is absolute drivel, boxers are not mute or hostages, all fighters have options, from what I understand the maximum contract a fighter can sign with the BBBC is three years, therefore any fighter will have options in no less than 36 months, if Clev genuinely wants the best and is unhappy with what Warren is serving up soon enough he will get chance to show how badly he wants it. For me sometimes for all some fighters talk the talk they sometimes realise they are not ready, as you have said Clev is not stupid and for all his talk of Hopkins and Dawson he probably realises he is not ready and is happy to take the paydays offered and chances to learn his trade.

davidemore wrote:It gets my blood boiling when people refer to boxers as spineless or cowards. Boxers are anything but that. They are by their very nature the most competitive of all sportsmen. They thrive on the ultimate test. The problem with boxing is not the boxers, who will fight anyone at any time, but the bearocrats and suits. Blaming boxers for x.y or z no thappening is plainly wrong when the fault should be levelled at the suits and no-one else.
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AZ boxers have voices and they can say what they want. Look at Donaire, he voiced he was unhappy, Bradley left his promoter, come on now. And i referred to Bute as spineless not 'boxers'. Again, you edit out the real comment and play with words like a politician. I also said no boxer is afraid or a 'coward' as you suggested, it's in relative terms i made that comment.

Also, you say they thrive on the ultimate test? Who is Bute's Jean Paul Mendy?

You lack class and accuracy, i can eat you alive on this but i will simply let my informed opinion speak, and not my diluted, confrontational angle (which i don't have but you do) AZ.

Happy New Year!

Unfortunately your opinion is very uninformed. Mine is from the horses mouth.

Isn't spineless another word for coward? Please clarify what you meant by spineless.

Khan is a case in point - Warren dithered - Khan moved

azania wrote:
If its that easy all boxers would be doing that. Read up on the issues between Witherspoon and King. Watson and Duff, Holmes and King, Ali and King. Norton and Arum. McGuigan and Eastwood. The list is endless.

This ain't the 80's Az King's day is long gone, Bradley was unhappy and he had to spend nearly 11 months out of the ring, that is nearly 5 months more than what he would under normal circumstances, oh the horror, still maintain if you want the big fights they can happen. Am not suggesting getting out of contracts or switching promoters is easy but something being a bit of hassle is not really the same as someone being a hostage.

AZ grow up, i can say it twenty different ways, explain and dumb it down for you, you still wont understand, because you don't want to understand. Choice AZ, i choose not to explain anymore than i have to and you choose not to listen to reason. Go and have a glass of milk and come back as a reasonable human with informed and knowledgeable opinion.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:

I think my point has been proven. Boxers are help pracitcally hostage by their promoters/managers.

I'm sorry but that is absolute drivel, boxers are not mute or hostages, all fighters have options, from what I understand the maximum contract a fighter can sign with the BBBC is three years, therefore any fighter will have options in no less than 36 months, if Clev genuinely wants the best and is unhappy with what Warren is serving up soon enough he will get chance to show how badly he wants it. For me sometimes for all some fighters talk the talk they sometimes realise they are not ready, as you have said Clev is not stupid and for all his talk of Hopkins and Dawson he probably realises he is not ready and is happy to take the paydays offered and chances to learn his trade.

It isn't drivel rowley. Boxers may have voices. BUt do you think Clev can over-ride Warren? If you think the power in boxing lies with the boxers, then you are deluded my friend. It is far from the case. Only very few boxers have more power than promoters or have parity.

They may have options, but let them excercise that and see where they end up. Boxing is the dirtiest business I know of. It is the most litigious sport there is and a boxer's career can nose-dive if they step on the wrong shoes or get too uppity. Only a select few boxers can do that and get away with it. Read up on Floyd's "slave money" comment and his issues with Arum.

davidemore wrote:AZ grow up, i can say it twenty different ways, explain and dumb it down for you, you still wont understand, because you don't want to understand. Choice AZ, i choose not to explain anymore than i have to and you choose not to listen to reason. Go and have a glass of milk and come back as a reasonable human with informed and knowledgeable opinion.

Shut up.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:
If its that easy all boxers would be doing that. Read up on the issues between Witherspoon and King. Watson and Duff, Holmes and King, Ali and King. Norton and Arum. McGuigan and Eastwood. The list is endless.

This ain't the 80's Az King's day is long gone, Bradley was unhappy and he had to spend nearly 11 months out of the ring, that is nearly 5 months more than what he would under normal circumstances, oh the horror, still maintain if you want the big fights they can happen. Am not suggesting getting out of contracts or switching promoters is easy but something being a bit of hassle is not really the same as someone being a hostage.

And why did Bradley spend 11 months of his prime out of the ring? He isn't exactly Floyd who can fight once a year. He had promotional and managerial issues which his advisors tried successfully got him out of. He's lucky it was Shaw and not Arum he had issues with otherwise he would be out for 2 years at least. Point is that his career has stalled because of managerial issues.

ShahenshahG wrote:Khan is a case in point - Warren dithered - Khan moved

Khan's contract was up and GBP showed interest. Had there been no interest from GBP, Khan would be fighting Euro and UK fighters for the WBA belt.

azania, the minute you start using proffanity or getting aggressive in debate you lose the moral high ground? Tread carefully, AZ.

azania wrote:

They may have options, but let them excercise that and see where they end up. .

Fair point, am sure when he was in the ring with Mayweather and Manny Hatton rued the day he ever crossed swords with Warren, likewise Khan has become virtually the forgotten man of the sport since leaving, the heady days of defences against greats like Salita are a dim and distant memory for him. Can only hope Kell Brook wakes up and smells the coffee before it is too late.

azania wrote:
And why did Bradley spend 11 months of his prime out of the ring? He isn't exactly Floyd who can fight once a year. He had promotional and managerial issues which his advisors tried successfully got him out of. He's lucky it was Shaw and not Arum he had issues with otherwise he would be out for 2 years at least. Point is that his career has stalled because of managerial issues.

So he spent probably five months more out of the ring than he would have done normally and is now with the same promotional team as Manny, which if the last few years have taught us anything is not too bad a place to be if you want to secure a fight with him.

davidemore wrote:azania, the minute you start using proffanity or getting aggressive in debate you lose the moral high ground? Tread carefully, AZ.

Either debate the thread or shut up. It is that simple. I'm not getting aggressive or upset/angry/bothered. Just wanting you to stay focussed and simply answer points raised.

Have a wonderful year.

Thank AZ and you too have a wonderful year. Quite the thread today, really pleased with all the debating that has taken place, some really classy work too.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:

They may have options, but let them excercise that and see where they end up. .

Fair point, am sure when he was in the ring with Mayweather and Manny Hatton rued the day he ever crossed swords with Warren, likewise Khan has become virtually the forgotten man of the sport since leaving, the heady days of defences against greats like Salita are a dim and distant memory for him. Can only hope Kell Brook wakes up and smells the coffee before it is too late.

If a boxer is coming to the end of his contract with his manager or promoter he has options. After speaking with other promoters and seeing if they can deliver fights, they go with the one who gives the better deal. Thankfully Warren no longer has a strangle hold on boxers here and Matchroon is there for the likes of Brook.

Hatton already had the fan base so he went alone (aligned with GBP). Ditto Khan who has the potential (probably wont realise it). But do you reckon GBP would pick up Lynes of his like if he were to pi$$ of Warren? Do you thiknk they will pick up Clev? Matchroom would but they would want to milk him first before trying to get the big fights. Look how Froch stalled under Hennessey.

davidemore wrote:Boon it is a sea within a sea!

Think ying and yang, and musing about abstract thoughts that have no real meaning! Circles and lines!

Back to boxing. Cleverly is fighting a complete bum, nice to see him step back a bit to hone skills, but not this far back!

That's what I said the question had no meaning or purpose. That's existentialism isn't it, having to define a purpose or meaning in a meaningless universe?

The next Cleverly fight has no meaning.

I will hold back on slating Cleverly until the end of the year because I genuinely believe he and Shumenov fancy they can take each other whilst probably being wary of the fact they aint got an icecube's chance in hell against the other champs out there. I do believe Clev will fight Shumenov this year and if he's still fighting bums by the end of it then I'll join in the chorus of boos!

Hennessey was terrible for Froch, so glad he left him. Although, he did introduce him to his partner, not bad work that. Lol.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:
And why did Bradley spend 11 months of his prime out of the ring? He isn't exactly Floyd who can fight once a year. He had promotional and managerial issues which his advisors tried successfully got him out of. He's lucky it was Shaw and not Arum he had issues with otherwise he would be out for 2 years at least. Point is that his career has stalled because of managerial issues.

So he spent probably five months more out of the ring than he would have done normally and is now with the same promotional team as Manny, which if the last few years have taught us anything is not too bad a place to be if you want to secure a fight with him.

So why did he have to jump ship and stall his acreer? That is my point. They are often held to hostage by promoters and their managers.

Many here are arguing from an ideal world point of biew. Boxing is not normal business. Far from it. In an ideal world all the best boxers would be fighting one another and getting well paid for it. But it doesn't and its no fault of the boxers.

davidemore wrote:Hennessey was terrible for Froch, so glad he left him. Although, he did introduce him to his partner, not bad work that. Lol.

Therefore once again a poorly managed boxer suffers from bad management. Hardly the boxer's fault.

That's what I said the question had no meaning or purpose. That's existentialism isn't it, having to define a purpose or meaning in a meaningless universe?
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@boon

Ha ha well said. Boon ever read The Outsider by Albert Camus? Great book for the existential mind, also Jean Paul Satre is good, although his translations weren't as strong as ol' Albert's.

For me, i like the idea of living outside of convention, and i always found the existentialists had superb insight into this notion. I believe in individuals that operate in relation to feeling, thought and viewpoint.

Back to boxing. This is a big year for Nathan, he has to step up or he will be perceived to be ducking and hyping without performing. Big year for Nathan.

AZ boxersaren't all brain dead idiots you know? Everyone of them is not a victim. Jeeze!

davidemore wrote:That's what I said the question had no meaning or purpose. That's existentialism isn't it, having to define a purpose or meaning in a meaningless universe?
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@boon

Ha ha well said. Boon ever read The Outsider by Albert Camus? Great book for the existential mind, also Jean Paul Satre is good, although his translations weren't as strong as ol' Albert's.

For me, i like the idea of living outside of convention, and i always found the existentialists had superb insight into this notion. I believe in individuals that operate in relation to feeling, thought and viewpoint.

Back to boxing. This is a big year for Nathan, he has to step up or he will be perceived to be ducking and hyping without performing. Big year for Nathan.

Nope. I aint read those but one thing about operating "in relation to feeling, thought and viewpoint". Great way to be but will not get you up the food chain, speaking from bitter experience!

I've got a feeling the Cleverly naysayers could be right though. All this talk of Shumenov, Dawson, Hopkins it'll end in the likes of Caniemsky and Buminov or whatever Euro trash Warren can cook up!

davidemore wrote:AZ boxersaren't all brain dead idiots you know? Everyone of them is not a victim. Jeeze!

I'm not saying they are. Far from it. Its just that the promoters know and understand the business side of it better than they do and have an army of highly paid lawyers to back them up.

azania wrote:

davidemore wrote:AZ boxersaren't all brain dead idiots you know? Everyone of them is not a victim. Jeeze!

I'm not saying they are. Far from it. Its just that the promoters know and understand the business side of it better than they do and have an army of highly paid lawyers to back them up.

Indeed a good point however we can take the usual line of "I will fight who my promoter tells me to fight" as a pre-determined duck on part of the boxer. Have heard Manny Pacquaio use that one a few times usually meaning he fully intends ducking Floyd.

Manny is actually being very accurate. His statement is typically what goes on.

After Watson beat Benn, his next fight was against McCallum. 11 months after the Benn fight. Contractual disputes cost his big time. He should have taken a warm up fight first. In fact he wanted one but his manegement team refused and fed him to McCallum. Mike was rusty and took a beating (not to say he would ever have beaten McCallum coz he wouldn;t). It just shows how promoters et al can harm any boxer regardless of how intelligent they are.

I understand that you want to protect the boxers Azania but you can't honestly say that ehy have so little say in who they fight? Afterall it is the promoter's job to get the fights their boxers want. As much as it is wrong to brand any boxer a coward it is certainly fair to say some have much more ambition than others. I would say Carl Froch has a ton more ambition than Felix Sturm for example.

Super D Boon wrote:I understand that you want to protect the boxers Azania but you can't honestly say that ehy have so little say in who they fight? Afterall it is the promoter's job to get the fights their boxers want. As much as it is wrong to brand any boxer a coward it is certainly fair to say some have much more ambition than others. I would say Carl Froch has a ton more ambition than Felix Sturm for example.

They can say who they want to fight. But its up to their management team to deliver that fight. How many times have we heard one promoter (Y) claim Promoter X said one thing only for Promoter X to deny it and claim Promoter Y said something else?

Germany is a different kettle of fish altogether. Their boxers seem overly protected. But looking at Sturm he fought Oscar. No small sign of lacking ambition. From what I've read, German promoters and TV are notoriously hard to do business with. They want some ridiculous options on any opponent. Something which that opponent's team are never going to give out.

If it were the boxers themselves having a drink to broker a fight between them, you would have Sturm fighting Martinez or whoever. But when the suits enter the fray, it complicates matters.

What it is is this.

Boxers are commodities and promoters and managers spend a lot of money in building said commodity. Therefore, when it comes time for them to make money, sell out venues and television rights they want a maximum recoup on their investment. This is natural, but, look at Brook for example, Hearn is doing this now by booking an arena for his next fight, but, he is also showcasing him in America and building him as a fighter with better and better opposition. Each fight seems to have a purpose for Hearn and Brook, together, and i like the way it is going. He is approaching the world stage at a good pace, building his name, fighting in different environments and being showcased. We need to look at the positives as well as the negatives of a promoter, and Brook left Warren right? He did this because he wanted a say in his future.

And he sounds common as muck and could be a plum. Although this may be beside the point, lol.

A glorified ducker is a ducker nonetheless. Bute has never fought outside his comfort zones of Canada/Romania and he's picking fights that it's never on the cards he'll lose. Johnson, Mendy, Zuniga, Andrade...all opponents that'd look good on other fighters' cv's but Bute has been stalling at that level for at least one year too many. Got nothing on Ward, Froch, Kessler, Dirrell etc until he's at least fought one of them.

I think there has to be a distinction between what would be best for fans in an ideal world and what the reality of the boxing world is.

I think Azania is right really, in terms of the reality of things. As a fan I dont like it, but its the way it is. Fighters like Cleverly are much more dependant on their promoter than vice versa and this is case for most fighters. If you reach the superstar status and popularity hights that the likes of Mayweather, Pacquiao and Hatton enjoy then you can be your own man for sure but its comparitively small the number of boxers that can afford to do this and fans can sometimes be a bit unrealistic in terms of their demands in relation to how it really works behind the scenes - which is complicated.

Every case is different, but ultimately promoters have a huge say in boxers careers thats probably underestimated. Look at Martinez for example. He calls everyone out from Ward to Mayweather yet at present cant seem to secure much better than Dzinzurik, Barker and Macklin. If it was so easy to secure fights, or if it was just a case of leaving a promoter to go to another then would this not have happened? People are happy that he wants to fight the best, but we dont know what kind of offers his team are making to other opponents or what is going on behind the scenes.

Even going all the way back through boxing history promoters have had a massive hand and say in fighters careers. Is that not the reason given for Dempseys failure to meet Wills for example? If a superstar like Dempsey had to essentially answer to the likes of Kearns then what chance does someone like Cleverly have calling the shots?

Naturally there is going to be cases of fighters lacking ambition though and using their promoters as an excuse or being willing particpants in being protected. But I think all boxers know that their reputations are dependant on who they face and if they consistently refuse to be challenged then their reputation will suffer. But promters/managers are generally hired to manage a fighters career which is why in most caes fighters will be more depenadant on them. Only fighters with huge fanbases or massive ability can get away with not really having a promoter or manager to steer their careers and its very difficult for fans to know exactly whats going on behind the scenes.

It's all relative though Manos, whilst it is true a guy like Clev, were he to leave Warren, would not have Arum and Golden Boy beating his door down the same was true of Brook but he found another promoter and is pretty undeniable both his profile and career have headed in the right direction since he did so.

Nobody is claiming it is easy to move on or that getting out of a contract is a cakewalk it is comments like fighters are hostages or the inference that a fighter has to constantly accept the likes of Tommy Kerceny or whatever he is called without ever being able to do anything other than accept it like a good little lapdog as I genuinely believe there are enough examples of guys who have done otherwise to suggest this is not the case.

rowley wrote:It's all relative though Manos, whilst it is true a guy like Clev, were he to leave Warren, would not have Arum and Golden Boy beating his door down the same was true of Brook but he found another promoter and is pretty undeniable both his profile and career have headed in the right direction since he did so.

Nobody is claiming it is easy to move on or that getting out of a contract is a cakewalk it is comments like fighters are hostages or the inference that a fighter has to constantly accept the likes of Tommy Kerceny or whatever he is called without ever being able to do anything other than accept it like a good little lapdog as I genuinely believe there are enough examples of guys who have done otherwise to suggest this is not the case.

Why would Cleverly want to leave Warren though? He can hardly claim Warren has let him down thus far. I think given his ability and stage in development hes been reasonably well matched so far. Can anyone really say they would be doing things differently to Warren or Cleverly in their respective positions? I think its a bit extreme to start kicking up a fuss with the promoter whos delivered you a world title becase of one poor fight.

This latest fight is a complete dud, but its most likely part of a bigger picture or because after the stalling of negotiations with Shumenov they had to move quickly and keep busy. For we all know Warren could have told him that this is just a defence to keep active while they look at bigger options for later in the year. If after several years of fighting unranked guys, Cleverly is unhappy then fair enough but so far I dont think he can have too much cause for complaint.

I have not argued that he should be considering leaving Warren, yet I mentioned him as he is the guy who started this whole debate off. I actually agree that given Clev has never actually beaten a current belt holder to win any title but is still a world champion Warren has done a hell of a job for him, it is more the over arching point that boxers are hostages to their promoters with zero options I take issue with or the idea that only those at the top of the game have options because I genuinely think there are enough examples recently that disprove this inference.

Nathan Cleverly simply isn't ready for world level. He inherited the title because of a no show from a fighter who was more inactive than a corpse. Will Nathan be able to hold onto his title fighting absolute bums? This is the question. And will he be able to tout world class opposition, and if so can he win those fights, is he ready? I think not. He may be able to beat Shueminov (spelling) but his promoter has just declared they were not offered the fight. Maybe because they wanted it in Las Vegas Warren didn't fancy it.

Still, i think if Nathan wanted a huge fight he could force Warren's hand, it mean a fight in Vegas but the option is there. There are so many European level fights that he could have taken that are better than this one, let alone some sort of world contender. It is a bit embarrassing this fight, and one that completely contradicts Nathan's talk of only wanting five or so more fights, big fights, to secure his legacy before retiring young and counting sheep.

I think he needs to step up or step off, but sadly the off and up is unlikely. What is likely is a few cans and hags over the next twelve months. He is only 24 though, and can progress to world level, it's just the fact that he is already apparently at world level. Possibly the weakest champion out there at the moment Nathan. Outside of some of the completely mickey mouse belts.

rowley wrote:I have not argued that he should be considering leaving Warren, yet I mentioned him as he is the guy who started this whole debate off. I actually agree that given Clev has never actually beaten a current belt holder to win any title but is still a world champion Warren has done a hell of a job for him, it is more the over arching point that boxers are hostages to their promoters with zero options I take issue with or the idea that only those at the top of the game have options because I genuinely think there are enough examples recently that disprove this inference.

I think it depends. Would agree that hostage is too strong a word but I do think developing and upcoming fighters are quite heavily dependant on their promoters to manage their careers. They hire promoters in essence to manage their careers and make these kind of decisions for them and its kind of counter productive to then be at odds with them over it. I dont think they are held hostage, but they can certainly rely heavily on them. If you look at the next Cleverly fight in isolation for instance, its pretty poor and obviously sub standard. But Id say its more of a case of Warren sitting down with Cleverly and saying look we want to keep you busy and we are looking at other options in the longer and medium term. Or outlining future targets and goals.

davidemore wrote:Nathan Cleverly simply isn't ready for world level. He inherited the title because of a no show from a fighter who was more inactive than a corpse. Will Nathan be able to hold onto his title fighting absolute bums? This is the question. And will he be able to tout world class opposition, and if so can he win those fights, is he ready? I think not. He may be able to beat Shueminov (spelling) but his promoter has just declared they were not offered the fight. Maybe because they wanted it in Las Vegas Warren didn't fancy it.

Still, i think if Nathan wanted a huge fight he could force Warren's hand, it mean a fight in Vegas but the option is there. There are so many European level fights that he could have taken that are better than this one, let alone some sort of world contender. It is a bit embarrassing this fight, and one that completely contradicts Nathan's talk of only wanting five or so more fights, big fights, to secure his legacy before retiring young and counting sheep.

I think he needs to step up or step off, but sadly the off and up is unlikely. What is likely is a few cans and hags over the next twelve months. He is only 24 though, and can progress to world level, it's just the fact that he is already apparently at world level. Possibly the weakest champion out there at the moment Nathan. Outside of some of the completely mickey mouse belts.

Well what would you do if you were in Warren or Cleverly position. Out of curiosity? How differently would you have managed his career thus far?

I appreciate that his latest fight is pretty lame with little justification other than perhaps the need to keep active, but that aside what would the issue be?

manos de piedra wrote:

davidemore wrote:Nathan Cleverly simply isn't ready for world level. He inherited the title because of a no show from a fighter who was more inactive than a corpse. Will Nathan be able to hold onto his title fighting absolute bums? This is the question. And will he be able to tout world class opposition, and if so can he win those fights, is he ready? I think not. He may be able to beat Shueminov (spelling) but his promoter has just declared they were not offered the fight. Maybe because they wanted it in Las Vegas Warren didn't fancy it.

Still, i think if Nathan wanted a huge fight he could force Warren's hand, it mean a fight in Vegas but the option is there. There are so many European level fights that he could have taken that are better than this one, let alone some sort of world contender. It is a bit embarrassing this fight, and one that completely contradicts Nathan's talk of only wanting five or so more fights, big fights, to secure his legacy before retiring young and counting sheep.

I think he needs to step up or step off, but sadly the off and up is unlikely. What is likely is a few cans and hags over the next twelve months. He is only 24 though, and can progress to world level, it's just the fact that he is already apparently at world level. Possibly the weakest champion out there at the moment Nathan. Outside of some of the completely mickey mouse belts.

Well what would you do if you were in Warren or Cleverly position. Out of curiosity? How differently would you have managed his career thus far?

I appreciate that his latest fight is pretty lame with little justification other than perhaps the need to keep active, but that aside what would the issue be?

Great point Manos and tough point to argue. It seems he is in a catch 22 position. In one sense i would say, go for it, try and make that fight against Shumenov (spelling). This guy is new and a very young champion in terms of fights, and Nathan probably has a good chance as he will be inexperienced. But also, i would love to see Warren suggest that maybe Nathan needs a couple more European level fights. If he can do so without losing his belt then great, but just admit it. They wont of course, because this is boxing. But let's see Nathan fight at a more progressive pace. His opponents all seems scatter gun to me, he has no foe that offers ex champion status, or genuine experience. He hasn't fought a Johnson type fighter or Paulie type fighter, you know, someone who has been in there with big hitters, in the big fights. Maybe the LH division doesn't have solid gatekeepers or fringe world level opponents as a stepping stone, but if they are out there i'd like to see Nathan in with them. I am not sure what this bum will offer Nathan in terms of profile, respect or learning.

A tough one to argue though, he is in a good place, as he is champion, but also, kind of in a sticky place.

This next fight is pointless alright, but its not really the norm as of yet. If it becomes the norm then I would certainly be critical but I think all in all his career has been managed quite well so far and he has been matched sensibly in terms of his ability.

Manos again you make valid points. Just be nice to see Nathan stop barking on about Hopkins and Dawson and retiring in a few years with the world behind him. That's Warrens influence, make noise when you don't necessarily need to, the man is entertaining in the ring, ol' Clev.

I generally dont get too hung up on what boxers and promoters say. Its Warrens job to try and drum up interest in Cleverly and hype him so mentioning Hopkins and the like is just part of the game really. I actually think Cleverly would be willing to face Hopkins but Im sure Warren realises the timing is not yet right and financially the fight probably isnt there really at this stage.

And that B-Hop would absolutely school him. He is tailor made for Bernard.

manos de piedra wrote:This next fight is pointless alright, but its not really the norm as of yet. If it becomes the norm then I would certainly be critical but I think all in all his career has been managed quite well so far and he has been matched sensibly in terms of his ability.

The 'norm' for Clev since his best fight (Murat) has been Mohammedi (an awkward but limited Euro level fighter Clev struggled with), Kuziemski (a pure Euro bum) and Bellew (turned out to be a good fight but it was never more than a domestic level contest really, not even Euro let alone world level). Now he's fighting a Yank nobody who's only domestic level also.

I like Nathan but he really needs to sort this out.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:This next fight is pointless alright, but its not really the norm as of yet. If it becomes the norm then I would certainly be critical but I think all in all his career has been managed quite well so far and he has been matched sensibly in terms of his ability.

The 'norm' for Clev since his best fight (Murat) has been Mohammedi (an awkward but limited Euro level fighter Clev struggled with), Kuziemski (a pure Euro bum) and Bellew (turned out to be a good fight but it was never more than a domestic level contest really, not even Euro let alone world level). Now he's fighting a Yank nobody who's only domestic level also.

I like Nathan but he really needs to sort this out.

Mohameddi and Kuziemski were short notice replacements for interim and world title fights in all fairness. Bellew was evenly matched opponent.

My guess is this next guy was selected as a low risk opponent because there is a potentially bigger fight being lined up for later in the year - probably Shumenov. They entered into negotiations which seemed to be more than just for show so maybe theres an informal agreement to meet later in the year and this fight is just to keep Cleverly active.

I dont really think Cleverly has been badly matched so far. Its been pretty much in line to the level he is at. People seem to think that because he holds a world title he must be world class. If this was someone who was arond the same level as Hopkins or Dawson and was fighting guys like Bellew instead I would be very critical. But I dont see it that way. I think he is being matchd in accordance to the kind of level he is on and this next opponent was most likely part of a bigger plan rather than setting the trend for sub par defences.

I hope so Manos, i really do.

rowley wrote:THE Tommy Karpency!!! Steffan better clear out the spare room, Cardiff here I come.

You would never be welcome in my house not now not ever

Steffan wrote:

rowley wrote:THE Tommy Karpency!!! Steffan better clear out the spare room, Cardiff here I come.

You would never be welcome in my house not now not ever