Step Up or Step Off, Bute...

First topic message reminder :

So, bit of a harsh one on the golden boy of Canada here, but hopefully justified.

Lucian Bute: quick, powerful, great left, great uppercut, slightly pawing jab, nice balance, nice body work, a real talent.

This is why i find him frustrating. I mean look at his record, not one, one, world level fighter on there. This man is in his 30s, this man has spent so much time at home he may well be on house arrest, this man is banking more than Ward and Froch with his TV deals and home crowds. So i ask you, is this right?

He gives great performances you say... well of course he does, he's fighting cans, hags and aging bums. Mendy? Johnson? Magee? Brinkley? (who). I mean where are these fighters ranked? who have they scalped along the way? Johnson is a name, but nothing more, absolutely nothing more these days. And Bute spent hours sparring with him so that's a cherry pick, surely.

There are two schools of thought with Bute, but only one pending question. Will he step up this year and fight away from home against a world level opponent, or will he step off and continue to fight cans at home but without all the accolade from the critics?

If he signs to fight Froch at home on a two fight deal then i will be annoyed, as this for me, is the fence. Fight him in America i say. No more Drone type contracts where the ego needs to be rubbed before a fight can be made.

Step up or step off, Lucien.

D-Man

davidemore wrote:azania your opinions are more varied than a hippies wardrobe.

You go from saying that when a fighter wants a big fight it's the promoters job to, a fighter has no say in who he fights. Then you ramble on about fighters being underpaid. Wow.

So, what are you actually saying? That fighters need to be more like Mayweather and dictate their own careers? Bute could have but he signed up to Showtime mid Super Six instead. Are you saying all fighters are underpaid? Really? Even Manny and Floyd, who pull in 25 million a fight plus, regardless of how long it goes? Think in relative terms azania.

I never said coward either, you said that azania, get your facts right. Bute, RELATIVELY, is spineless to me. No boxer is a coward, you are lying to live on this thread azania, you are just saying things to be heard. Like a boxer pre-fight hyping, like Tyson wanting to eat babies, you are saying whatever comes to mind to provoke.

Its the promoters job to deliver the fight and the manager's job to negotiate the contract and purse. Why do you think Mike Watson sued (and won) against Mickey Duff who was his promoter and manager citing a conflict of interest because he was not getting paid enough?

I haven't said a fighter has NO say in who he fights. I said he has little say in who he fights. 10-15 years ago when more fighters became self manager, they were sometimes frozen out unless they linked up with a good promoter. Colin McMillan is a case in point. Going no-where until he linked up with Warren/King. But the boxer has to be intelligent enough and lets be frank, boxers are not always the sharpest tool, hence they employ managers.

You called Bute spineless which in any language equates to being a coward. He is not and neither is any other boxer. And no I am not lying. I am speaking from a position of actually speaking to former boxers about this very situation.

coxy0001 wrote:Why do boxers switch promoters etc and get quoted that they're not getting the fighters and fights they want as a reason?

In the case of Pacquiao he's been given a list of Marquez, Peterson, Cotto and Bradley to choose from.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/170941-pacquiaos-pick-of-four-bradley-cotto-marquez-or-peterson

Quoting Arum:

And we're going to be offering Manny four potential opponents -- Cotto, Marquez, Bradley and Peterson.

Doesn't sound like Arum's gonna be telling Manny who to fight in my mind.

Boxers switch promoters to chase fights and to get bigger purses.

You give a very good example. Yes Arum gave Pac 4 fighters. Pac probably discussed it with Roach (Manager/trainer) and guess who had the last say in who he fought?

Azania they (promoters, trainers, wives, bin men, managers, ex fighters, family) all have input in who a fighter chooses to fight, and some more than others. But for you to drop in 'guess who had the last say' comments really weakens your argument.

You make valid points, but you spend too much time trying to dictate the thread rather than engage in it. Fixating on who you know and what happened 15 years ago is fine, it will give some validity, but essentially you come off as a make my point chaser. We have digressed on this thread and you sir (or possibly lady? i detect a feminine tone) are responsible.

My opinion is and remains this: Lucian Bute needs to step up.

By step up i mean take a risk. A risk that is overdue. This risk is, in my opinion, one or ideally all of the following: fight away from home, fight a world class opponent, fight with no safety net, for example two fight deals, fight without Canadian judges or a back garden venue.

Ideally, when all things are considered, for example, his age, level of opponent, money already banked, P4P ranking and skill set he should be willing to take these risks, for they do not come without reward.

He will establish himself as a genuine champion, he will build a fan base (me, and many like me), he will make money, regardless of your view that he wont. There are many positives for Lucian Bute, that's if he is willing.

davidemore wrote:Azania they (promoters, trainers, wives, bin men, managers, ex fighters, family) all have input in who a fighter chooses to fight, and some more than others. But for you to drop in 'guess who had the last say' comments really weakens your argument.

You make valid points, but you spend too much time trying to dictate the thread rather than engage in it. Fixating on who you know and what happened 15 years ago is fine, it will give some validity, but essentially you come off as a make my point chaser. We have digressed on this thread and you sir (or possibly lady? i detect a feminine tone) are responsible.

My opinion is and remains this: Lucian Bute needs to step up.

By step up i mean take a risk. A risk that is overdue. This risk is, in my opinion, one or ideally all of the following: fight away from home, fight a world class opponent, fight with no safety net, for example two fight deals, fight without Canadian judges or a back garden venue.

Ideally, when all things are considered, for example, his age, level of opponent, money already banked, P4P ranking and skill set he should be willing to take these risks, for they do not come without reward.

He will establish himself as a genuine champion, he will build a fan base (me, and many like me), he will make money, regardless of your view that he wont. There are many positives for Lucian Bute, that's if he is willing.

So you think a fighter has much of a say as to who he fights? You reckon Calzaghe trawled thru boxrec and picked out Pudwill as his next opponent do you?

Of course Bute is due to step up. He's top 10 rated P4P. Must be based on percieved talent and not on acomplishment. But who could he have fought? The S6 took away his main rivals. Now the s6 is done, talks are underway for him to fight some of the big guns in the division.

Perhaps he should fight Ward away from North America and Froch is Dubai. Neitral venue and all that.

Also I haven't said that he wont make money. The money issue was brought up when you insinuated that he should take a vut to make a fight happen.

Fair point on the money front, but you did defend fighters for chasing the money, and Bute is hardly in the poor house is he?

And yes, he is perceived to be a great fighter on talent, but how do we really know if he is talented when he fights opponents who don't test that talent. My jab could look pretty good against a 70 year old, and although that is a complete exaggeration of who Bute has fought, you see my point I'm sure.

There are too many question marks hanging over this boxer, a boxer who does so many things right. He is likeable, respectful, marketed well and shows real skills, but he is untested, and in the limelight when i feel other fighters deserve it more.

Lucian Bute, it is just a name to me, an enigma, a frustration if honest. If he wants, and this is key, wants to be seen as Lucian Bute! The marvel, the gift, the scientist, then he has to earn it. Maybe he doesn't, that's fine, but don't sell us the man when he is fighting cans (nice rhyme).

I think any fighter who knows his worth has a huge amount of say in who he fights, huge amount. I think the rest do too, but look at James Degale for example. Warren is a veteran but you've seen Degale speak out in interviews about who he wants, demand fights above his level, push for belts. It happens just as much as it doesn't, and if pushed I would put Bute in the group of boxers that have a huge amount of choice.

He should have given Kessler a go, but Kessler said he demanded too much control and home advantage. You say everyone was in the super six, but we didn't know who Ward and Dirrell were before the tournament. Now they are names you say, oh well, they were in the Super Six, but they weren't names before they went in. And Bute has been draft dodging (Army metaphor) for three years in my opinion. Who is Kessler fighting next? Robert Stiegliz. Why didn't Bute push for that fight before Kessler?

Azani, you seem capable, and basically intelligent, you must see my viewpoint? Come on now.

davidemore wrote:God forbid Bute steps outside of his bedroom, puts on his shorts and shows he has a pair. I mean this is the big leagues, and he is fighting the minors but calling himself a true champion. He aint nothing until he fights a Kessler, Froch, Dirrell or Ward. I mean, Dirrell stepped up and he lacks the mental attributes of a Froch or Ward or Kessler. So, what's this French Queen doing? Heavens forbid he actually put his belt on the line in a meaningful fight for a purse that will no doubt near the 1 million dollar mark.

The fragility of boon's argument echoes the fragility of Bute's spine.

My points were that Bute was right not to enter a competition based on the terms and conditions he'd need to be signing plus the fact one of his fellow competitors is given a special pass to fight every one of his fights at home. In what way is my argument fragile?

davidemore wrote:Fair point on the money front, but you did defend fighters for chasing the money, and Bute is hardly in the poor house is he?

And yes, he is perceived to be a great fighter on talent, but how do we really know if he is talented when he fights opponents who don't test that talent. My jab could look pretty good against a 70 year old, and although that is a complete exaggeration of who Bute has fought, you see my point I'm sure.

There are too many question marks hanging over this boxer, a boxer who does so many things right. He is likeable, respectful, marketed well and shows real skills, but he is untested, and in the limelight when i feel other fighters deserve it more.

Lucian Bute, it is just a name to me, an enigma, a frustration if honest. If he wants, and this is key, wants to be seen as Lucian Bute! The marvel, the gift, the scientist, then he has to earn it. Maybe he doesn't, that's fine, but don't sell us the man when he is fighting cans (nice rhyme).

I think any fighter who knows his worth has a huge amount of say in who he fights, huge amount. I think the rest do too, but look at James Degale for example. Warren is a veteran but you've seen Degale speak out in interviews about who he wants, demand fights above his level, push for belts. It happens just as much as it doesn't, and if pushed I would put Bute in the group of boxers that have a huge amount of choice.

He should have given Kessler a go, but Kessler said he demanded too much control and home advantage. You say everyone was in the super six, but we didn't know who Ward and Dirrell were before the tournament. Now they are names you say, oh well, they were in the Super Six, but they weren't names before they went in. And Bute has been draft dodging (Army metaphor) for three years in my opinion. Who is Kessler fighting next? Robert Stiegliz. Why didn't Bute push for that fight before Kessler?

Azani, you seem capable, and basically intelligent, you must see my viewpoint? Come on now.

Fighters call one another out all the time. Khan was shouting that he wanted to be a 'world' champ by the age of 20. The list is endless. But its the promoters and managers to get the fight done. Did JC call out Pudwill or whatever dross he fought?

My points were that Bute was right not to enter a competition based on the terms and conditions he'd need to be signing plus the fact one of his fellow competitors is given a special pass to fight every one of his fights at home. In what way is my argument fragile?
--------------------------------------------

Well edited Boon. My dear chap, it was in the way that you suggested Bute was the smart one for side stepping major fights with world level opposition. Also, whilst doing so avoiding other fighters such as Kessler when he came out of the Super Six. He avoided him by demanding too much. Also, when Kessler is will to take on Robert Steiglitz, a world champion, if not a great one, then why isn't Bute? Bute had first stab at him as everyone else, seemingly, was in the Super Six.

Boon, you seem to suggest money talks and fighting cans is okay as long as the money is good. But when fighters do this and get hyped and put on HBO and Showtime, what does this say about the sport? A great sport, a sport of diligence and when in the ring integrity. A sport of bravery and ambition, giving the usually working-class man ( at best) a shot at the American Dream. The chance to 'make it', become someone, get out of poverty, be the Champion of the World.

People like Bute show greed and a desire of security over success. If honest i feel that fighters like Lucian Bute hurt the sport. Look at him, he is 31, rich, adored, a belt holder, a skilled fighter (on the talent faced) and what is he doing in terms of big fights? Nothing. Or at best looking for the safety net, again. It is frustrating when you look at the men of the Super Six, who all do well on home soil, like Bute, but are willing to go for it to be considered the best. Bute wants to manufacture his best fighter status, and until he gets in the ring, on fair terms with a fighter of serious quality, i stand by that statement.

Due to the farcical nature of the Super Six it will never happen again anyway. While the right man won he did it without having to leave his own state apart from the final matchup. Agree that Bute probably made the right choice staying out of it. If he beats Ward then he would have confirmed himself number one at the weight without even having to go through all the Super Six business.

Due to the farcical nature of the Super Six it will never happen again anyway. While the right man won he did it without having to leave his own state apart from the final matchup. Agree that Bute probably made the right choice staying out of it. If he beats Ward then he would have confirmed himself number one at the weight without even having to go through all the Super Six business.

-----------------------------

Oh dear oh dear, very poor comments Jimmy. You talk of the tournament like it was this horrible chore, and not a huge success. The best fought the best, on mostly fair terms, with no stinker judging and minimal complaint. What is boxing without this type of action, Jimmy? (if that is your real name).

Happy New Year

davidemore wrote:Oh dear oh dear, very poor comments Jimmy. You talk of the tournament like it was this horrible chore, and not a huge success. The best fought the best, on mostly fair terms, with no stinker judging and minimal complaint. What is boxing without this type of action, Jimmy? (if that is your real name).

Happy New Year

Was it a success then?

Fighters dropped out
The winner fought at home all the time
The final felt like a normal fight and not some great ending. Total anti-climax
It still didn’t establish who is number one at SMW hence we are having this discussion

My real name is not up for grabs on an internet forum

Happy New Year to you as well

Was it a success then?

Fighters dropped out
The winner fought at home all the time
The final felt like a normal fight and not some great ending. Total anti-climax
It still didn’t establish who is number one at SMW hence we are having this discussion

My real name is not up for grabs on an internet forum

Happy New Year to you as well
___________________________

Ladies and gentleman, Mr. Half Empty.

It was a success, fighters dropped out for good reason, good fighters stepped up, some great matches were seen: Froch vs Johnson, Froch vs Kessler, Ward vs Kessler.

It was a success. If you don't see that you don't know boxing. And the final was great, Ward was brilliant, and i am a huge Froch fan. Ward showed us real skills.

Open your eyes, it is time to wake up.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

Azania JC fought bums for the majority of his career, why are you bringing this up?

davidemore wrote:Azania JC fought bums for the majority of his career, why are you bringing this up?

Did he ask to fight those bums of were they chosen for him by Warren?

azania wrote:

davidemore wrote:Azania JC fought bums for the majority of his career, why are you bringing this up?

Did he ask to fight those bums of were they chosen for him by Warren?

Nobody put a gun to his head.

azania wrote:

davidemore wrote:Azania JC fought bums for the majority of his career, why are you bringing this up?

Did he ask to fight those bums of were they chosen for him by Warren?

Six of one though Az, you do tend to imply that boxers are mute and incapable of having any influence on their career path but this is not really the case. Will not discuss Joe as it always gets a little heated and dull, however look at Hatton, Warren was more than happy having him filling the MEN in defence of the WBU against the likes of Stephen Smith but Ricky made noise about moving on when he contract expired and bingo he is all of a sudden in a ring with Kostya, naive to think the two elements of that are not related. If Bute wants to get involved with the best at his weight he is more than capable of making it happen, his promoters no longer want to pee off such a cash cow than Warren did with Ricky and if he shouts loud enough they will make sure he gets what he wants.

AZ i respectively ask that you refer to all Rowley posts for confirmation of my opinion on the JC and fighters willingness to fight opinions. My word he said it well.

reaffirmation of intelligent posting is with Rowley now...

Bute, step up or step off, man.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:

davidemore wrote:Azania JC fought bums for the majority of his career, why are you bringing this up?

Did he ask to fight those bums of were they chosen for him by Warren?

Six of one though Az, you do tend to imply that boxers are mute and incapable of having any influence on their career path but this is not really the case. Will not discuss Joe as it always gets a little heated and dull, however look at Hatton, Warren was more than happy having him filling the MEN in defence of the WBU against the likes of Stephen Smith but Ricky made noise about moving on when he contract expired and bingo he is all of a sudden in a ring with Kostya, naive to think the two elements of that are not related. If Bute wants to get involved with the best at his weight he is more than capable of making it happen, his promoters no longer want to pee off such a cash cow than Warren did with Ricky and if he shouts loud enough they will make sure he gets what he wants.

Rowley

It gets my blood boiling when people refer to boxers as spineless or cowards. Boxers are anything but that. They are by their very nature the most competitive of all sportsmen. They thrive on the ultimate test. The problem with boxing is not the boxers, who will fight anyone at any time, but the bearocrats and suits. Blaming boxers for x.y or z no thappening is plainly wrong when the fault should be levelled at the suits and no-one else.

A boxer can call out whoever, but if their promoters say it wont happen, it wont. Unless that is, the boxer gets big and has the brains to know his worth and becomes more powerful than the promoter. hatton became more powerful (in his own career) that Warren, so he could dictate and call some shots. But I can near on guarantee that Hatton would not have accepted peanuts for fighting Kostya. And he shouldn't.

Watching the Benn/McClellan docu and the Watson tribute cements for me that boxers should be paid much more and are anything but cowards or spineless. Anyone who refers to them in those words is simply a tool. I offer no apologies either.

Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Someone else referred to Bute as spineless. But one thing, Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team). Also how do we know he hasn't been making more noise? Do you think the Americans knew that Hatton forced Warren's hand to get the Kostya fight? I doub they did. Likewise we do not know what Bute has been saying or alluding.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

It gets my blood boiling when people refer to boxers as spineless or cowards. Boxers are anything but that. They are by their very nature the most competitive of all sportsmen. They thrive on the ultimate test. The problem with boxing is not the boxers, who will fight anyone at any time, but the bearocrats and suits. Blaming boxers for x.y or z no thappening is plainly wrong when the fault should be levelled at the suits and no-one else.
=====================

AZ boxers have voices and they can say what they want. Look at Donaire, he voiced he was unhappy, Bradley left his promoter, come on now. And i referred to Bute as spineless not 'boxers'. Again, you edit out the real comment and play with words like a politician. I also said no boxer is afraid or a 'coward' as you suggested, it's in relative terms i made that comment.

Also, you say they thrive on the ultimate test? Who is Bute's Jean Paul Mendy?

You lack class and accuracy, i can eat you alive on this but i will simply let my informed opinion speak, and not my diluted, confrontational angle (which i don't have but you do) AZ.

Happy New Year!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

He certainly should get a new team if that's the case, but it isn't. I think it isn't anyway.

davidemore wrote:My points were that Bute was right not to enter a competition based on the terms and conditions he'd need to be signing plus the fact one of his fellow competitors is given a special pass to fight every one of his fights at home. In what way is my argument fragile?
--------------------------------------------

Well edited Boon. My dear chap, it was in the way that you suggested Bute was the smart one for side stepping major fights with world level opposition. Also, whilst doing so avoiding other fighters such as Kessler when he came out of the Super Six. He avoided him by demanding too much. Also, when Kessler is will to take on Robert Steiglitz, a world champion, if not a great one, then why isn't Bute? Bute had first stab at him as everyone else, seemingly, was in the Super Six.

Boon, you seem to suggest money talks and fighting cans is okay as long as the money is good. But when fighters do this and get hyped and put on HBO and Showtime, what does this say about the sport? A great sport, a sport of diligence and when in the ring integrity. A sport of bravery and ambition, giving the usually working-class man ( at best) a shot at the American Dream. The chance to 'make it', become someone, get out of poverty, be the Champion of the World.

People like Bute show greed and a desire of security over success. If honest i feel that fighters like Lucian Bute hurt the sport. Look at him, he is 31, rich, adored, a belt holder, a skilled fighter (on the talent faced) and what is he doing in terms of big fights? Nothing. Or at best looking for the safety net, again. It is frustrating when you look at the men of the Super Six, who all do well on home soil, like Bute, but are willing to go for it to be considered the best. Bute wants to manufacture his best fighter status, and until he gets in the ring, on fair terms with a fighter of serious quality, i stand by that statement.

Davidemore, where do I begin with all this?!

I am no fan of Monsieur Bute and was not suggesting it is okay to fight cruddy opponents to avoid fighting the good ones. What I was saying is that the competition set up was flawed and he was right not to enter it. I am strongly against any round-robin format being used for boxing due to the potential hazards this can cause. Afterall, Taylor, Kessler, Dirrell all bowed out during the round robin stages. I am also against any one boxer given concessions in such a tournament.

I also am not so much saying fighting cans is okay but am saying that it is acceptable so long as there's some balance between fighting dross and fighting good fighters. The balance in Bute's case is way too much in favour of the fighting cans at the moment and I do actually agree with the criticisms he faces. Despite not being part of Super 6 there were better opponents he could have fought than the dross he's faced so far.

Your last rant about Bute I agree with unless he starts to pull his finger out right about now. But I strongly beleive he was well advised to steer clear of the S6. The format was all wrong, and faced with fighting bin men at home for loads of dosh or fighting in a hard tournament that's already rigged against you for less money. What would you do?

davidemore wrote:It gets my blood boiling when people refer to boxers as spineless or cowards. Boxers are anything but that. They are by their very nature the most competitive of all sportsmen. They thrive on the ultimate test. The problem with boxing is not the boxers, who will fight anyone at any time, but the bearocrats and suits. Blaming boxers for x.y or z no thappening is plainly wrong when the fault should be levelled at the suits and no-one else.
=====================

AZ boxers have voices and they can say what they want. Look at Donaire, he voiced he was unhappy, Bradley left his promoter, come on now. And i referred to Bute as spineless not 'boxers'. Again, you edit out the real comment and play with words like a politician. I also said no boxer is afraid or a 'coward' as you suggested, it's in relative terms i made that comment.

Also, you say they thrive on the ultimate test? Who is Bute's Jean Paul Mendy?

You lack class and accuracy, i can eat you alive on this but i will simply let my informed opinion speak, and not my diluted, confrontational angle (which i don't have but you do) AZ.

Happy New Year!

Please see in bold, Azania is not the only one guilty of this eh, Davidemore?

Super D Boon wrote:

davidemore wrote:My points were that Bute was right not to enter a competition based on the terms and conditions he'd need to be signing plus the fact one of his fellow competitors is given a special pass to fight every one of his fights at home. In what way is my argument fragile?
--------------------------------------------

Well edited Boon. My dear chap, it was in the way that you suggested Bute was the smart one for side stepping major fights with world level opposition. Also, whilst doing so avoiding other fighters such as Kessler when he came out of the Super Six. He avoided him by demanding too much. Also, when Kessler is will to take on Robert Steiglitz, a world champion, if not a great one, then why isn't Bute? Bute had first stab at him as everyone else, seemingly, was in the Super Six.

Boon, you seem to suggest money talks and fighting cans is okay as long as the money is good. But when fighters do this and get hyped and put on HBO and Showtime, what does this say about the sport? A great sport, a sport of diligence and when in the ring integrity. A sport of bravery and ambition, giving the usually working-class man ( at best) a shot at the American Dream. The chance to 'make it', become someone, get out of poverty, be the Champion of the World.

People like Bute show greed and a desire of security over success. If honest i feel that fighters like Lucian Bute hurt the sport. Look at him, he is 31, rich, adored, a belt holder, a skilled fighter (on the talent faced) and what is he doing in terms of big fights? Nothing. Or at best looking for the safety net, again. It is frustrating when you look at the men of the Super Six, who all do well on home soil, like Bute, but are willing to go for it to be considered the best. Bute wants to manufacture his best fighter status, and until he gets in the ring, on fair terms with a fighter of serious quality, i stand by that statement.

Davidemore, where do I begin with all this?!

I am no fan of Monsieur Bute and was not suggesting it is okay to fight cruddy opponents to avoid fighting the good ones. What I was saying is that the competition set up was flawed and he was right not to enter it. I am strongly against any round-robin format being used for boxing due to the potential hazards this can cause. Afterall, Taylor, Kessler, Dirrell all bowed out during the round robin stages. I am also against any one boxer given concessions in such a tournament.

I also am not so much saying fighting cans is okay but am saying that it is acceptable so long as there's some balance between fighting dross and fighting good fighters. The balance in Bute's case is way too much in favour of the fighting cans at the moment and I do actually agree with the criticisms he faces. Despite not being part of Super 6 there were better opponents he could have fought than the dross he's faced so far.

Your last rant about Bute I agree with unless he starts to pull his finger out right about now. But I strongly beleive he was well advised to steer clear of the S6. The format was all wrong, and faced with fighting bin men at home for loads of dosh or fighting in a hard tournament that's already rigged against you for less money. What would you do?

You surprise me Mr. Boon. This is a nice and well balanced viewpoint. I would have gone in the tournament, hindsight only serves reflection, and like Sugar Ray Robinson once said, 'you think about it and you're gone.'

Bute is going to have to chase a big fight a bit now, Ward already denounced him as a B level fighter in terms of opponents. Froch is dangling the Forest ground as a possible venue, and Dirrell is saying Bute is overated. Add this to Kessler saying Bute's offer was an insult then i think he may well have to keep fighting bums until he sacrifices terms. The Super (duper) six boys seem united on Bute, and they know better than us, right?

Super D Boon wrote:

davidemore wrote:It gets my blood boiling when people refer to boxers as spineless or cowards. Boxers are anything but that. They are by their very nature the most competitive of all sportsmen. They thrive on the ultimate test. The problem with boxing is not the boxers, who will fight anyone at any time, but the bearocrats and suits. Blaming boxers for x.y or z no thappening is plainly wrong when the fault should be levelled at the suits and no-one else.
=====================

AZ boxers have voices and they can say what they want. Look at Donaire, he voiced he was unhappy, Bradley left his promoter, come on now. And i referred to Bute as spineless not 'boxers'. Again, you edit out the real comment and play with words like a politician. I also said no boxer is afraid or a 'coward' as you suggested, it's in relative terms i made that comment.

Also, you say they thrive on the ultimate test? Who is Bute's Jean Paul Mendy?

You lack class and accuracy, i can eat you alive on this but i will simply let my informed opinion speak, and not my diluted, confrontational angle (which i don't have but you do) AZ.

Happy New Year!

Please see in bold, Azania is not the only one guilty of this eh, Davidemore?

I try to remain impartial Boon, we all contradict at times i am sure, it is the nature of a forum, but AZ does it with crude intention, not with rapid fire post misrepresentation. Agreed?

davidemore wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

He certainly should get a new team if that's the case, but it isn't. I think it isn't anyway.

That's my point. Modern boxers are not slaves. If he WANTS the fight he can GET the fight. If his management/promotional team want to feed him dross he can choose to eat or he can push the plate away and go catch his own supper (maybe I'm stretching the metaphor a little..) a bit like Calzaghe-Pudwill. Yes Warren handed him Pudwill, but he accepted it, therefore he is equally culperable for criticism.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

davidemore wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

He certainly should get a new team if that's the case, but it isn't. I think it isn't anyway.

That's my point. Modern boxers are not slaves. If he WANTS the fight he can GET the fight. If his management/promotional team want to feed him dross he can choose to eat or he can push the plate away and go catch his own supper (maybe I'm stretching the metaphor a little..) a bit like Calzaghe-Pudwill. Yes Warren handed him Pudwill, but he accepted it, therefore he is equally culperable for criticism.

I like this tophat, and metaphor stretching is very nice, please, stretch more dear chap, stretch more.

Why does hindsight serve reflection? If I was a boxer and had the option to sign my health away to a gruelling round robing tournament where everyone (apart from one lucky golden boy who's pre-destined to win the tournament anyway) has to fight at least three times, home and away (home and home in Ward's case) and I wasn't going to get as much money for it as what I was doing already then I think I'd know exactly what to say to the Super 6 people.

Bute has it all to prove though you're right. And he may find it hard to get the big fights. Not arguing with that. But if he keeps building his record the big fights will come, afterall they did come to Calzaghe eventually.

davidemore wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

davidemore wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Not sure where the rant about cowards come from as it certainly wasn't my post but still believe if fighters want to test themselves more often than not opportunities to do so will present themselves, if you don't care for the example of Hatton lets take Clinton Woods instead, certainly did not have the fan base, popularity or power of Hatton but managed to get Jones, Tarver and Johnson (x3). There will always be exceptions to a rule but on the whole if a fighter wants big fights he can get em.

Bute has made noises in wanting to fight Ward, froch and others. His team has to make the fight (with the other's team).

If he wants the fight he should get a new team then.

He certainly should get a new team if that's the case, but it isn't. I think it isn't anyway.

That's my point. Modern boxers are not slaves. If he WANTS the fight he can GET the fight. If his management/promotional team want to feed him dross he can choose to eat or he can push the plate away and go catch his own supper (maybe I'm stretching the metaphor a little..) a bit like Calzaghe-Pudwill. Yes Warren handed him Pudwill, but he accepted it, therefore he is equally culperable for criticism.

I like this tophat, and metaphor stretching is very nice, please, stretch more dear chap, stretch more.

Like I've said before about Pudwill he was something like a second substitute for Thomas Tate who was a ranked boxer. If you are starving and they promised you oysters would you push away the plate because they gave you cockles instead....sorry couldn't help expanding on the metaphors.

Speaking of duff opposition, has anyone else seen the announcement of Cleverly's new opponent for February 25? Dear me...

88Chris05 wrote:Speaking of duff opposition, has anyone else seen the announcement of Cleverly's new opponent for February 25? Dear me...

Chris if this is your way of telling me it is not Hopkins or Dawson as Warren mentioned several times you could have broken it to me a little softer. It's my first day back at work am already at tipping point.

who is it mate?

Tommy Karpency of the USA, barely out of the six-round class.

88Chris05 wrote:Tommy Karpency of the USA, barely out of the six-round class.

THE Tommy Karpency!!! Steffan better clear out the spare room, Cardiff here I come.

88Chris05 wrote:Tommy Karpency of the USA, barely out of the six-round class.

I should have asked it rhetorically Knowing has depressed me. Why the hell not put him in with Bellew again - would have been a fantastic match up.

But he'll get Shumenov at the end of this year. I think that WILL happen.

Why does hindsight serve reflection?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is an existential question, no?

88Chris05 wrote:Tommy Karpency of the USA, barely out of the six-round class.

davidemore wrote:Why does hindsight serve reflection?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is an existential question, no?

The question cannot define its purpose!

Boon it is a sea within a sea!

Think ying and yang, and musing about abstract thoughts that have no real meaning! Circles and lines!

Back to boxing. Cleverly is fighting a complete bum, nice to see him step back a bit to hone skills, but not this far back!

Davide I do not agree it is nice to see him step back, he is a world champion, if the title is to mean anything he should be fighting the best, if he is not good enough he should not hold the belt. This is world titles as marketing tools, is endemic of everything wrong with the sport.

Good point rowley, i actually posted an article about how i thought he was not ready for the world belt. just a shame as i think he fought at his level against bellow, but obviously had a belt he shouldn't own, in my opinion. Maybe he should vacate? Not going to happen i know, but if honest it be the best way, but i know, it isn't going to happen.

rowley wrote:Davide I do not agree it is nice to see him step back, he is a world champion, if the title is to mean anything he should be fighting the best, if he is not good enough he should not hold the belt. This is world titles as marketing tools, is endemic of everything wrong with the sport.

Have to agree there - a breather fight between a few tough ones is fair enough - Holding out as a champions and fighting people beneath his ability is quite another - And he doesnt have a wlad type excuse of not having decent opponents.

davidemore wrote: Maybe he should vacate? Not going to happen i know, but if honest it be the best way, but i know, it isn't going to happen.

About as much chance as there is of me winning the 100m at the Olympics this year, much as I wish it was not the case Warren will probably continue to promise big names before just failing to get the deal done, deliver guys like this until Cleverley has either learned how to fight or made him enough money to be sacrificed. Got to love boxing sometimes.

rowley wrote:

davidemore wrote: Maybe he should vacate? Not going to happen i know, but if honest it be the best way, but i know, it isn't going to happen.

About as much chance as there is of me winning the 100m at the Olympics this year, much as I wish it was not the case Warren will probably continue to promise big names before just failing to get the deal done, deliver guys like this until Cleverley has either learned how to fight or made him enough money to be sacrificed. Got to love boxing sometimes.

You'd be disqauilified for putting butter on your gut

88Chris05 wrote:Speaking of duff opposition, has anyone else seen the announcement of Cleverly's new opponent for February 25? Dear me...

My case in point. Clev called out practically every active LHW and what does he get? I suppose we should all call Clev spineless and he should leave Warren.

ShahenshahG wrote:

rowley wrote:

davidemore wrote: Maybe he should vacate? Not going to happen i know, but if honest it be the best way, but i know, it isn't going to happen.

About as much chance as there is of me winning the 100m at the Olympics this year, much as I wish it was not the case Warren will probably continue to promise big names before just failing to get the deal done, deliver guys like this until Cleverley has either learned how to fight or made him enough money to be sacrificed. Got to love boxing sometimes.

You'd be disqauilified for putting butter on your gut

Mmmm, butter