Another terrible Warren defence...

"I want Hopkins"

"I am only going to fight the best"

(sigh)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/16153407.stm

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=357083&cat=boxer

That cotton wool must be nice and warm for young Nathan.

World Champions should be fighting World Level fighters.

Karpency is ranked on Boxrec as 83rd in the World and 19th in the US rankings.

Absolutely stinking this matchup is.

Get ready for Azania telling everyone that none of this is down to Cleverly in the slightest, that he has absolutely zero say in who he fights, and that he's probably been begging Warren to make the fight with Hopkins / Dawson / Pascal / Cloud etc but Warren simply said no.

The guy has ha only one 12 rounder in his career which he lost convincingly vs Murat, a fighter clev has already beat.

This is disgraceful, granted he is young and shouldn't be put in with cloud, Hopkins, pascal etc atm but ffs this guy is worse then bellew.

Who picked that dude for Clev to KO? I'm not going to blame Clev. If and when he develops a fan base bigger than his family then perhaps he can call some shots. Until then he dances to the tune of Frank Warren.

Az, Cleverly actually does have a decent fan base, more so than Kell Brook for example. However, this match up really does stink the place out. It reminds me a lot of what the Germans like to do. This is no better than the trash Brahmer or Stieglitz was fighting. Warren has never been as bad as the German promoters but this really is giving the krauts a run for their money!

I can completely see why they wouldn't want to put him in with, say, Dawson, Cloud, Pascal or Hopkins just yet, but if the Shumenov fight couldn't be made at least put him in with a semi-respectable opponent.

Why not Erdei, Kostecki or Gutknecht, assuming Warren could get one of them over here? None of them would trouble him, but at least they're top twenty ranked and could prove a worthwhile exercise.

Couldn't agree more Monzon, I would like to see him in with Erdei especially. If he could win that it would be a very good scalp. Trouble is, Erdei is even more protected than Cleverly. Erdei's recent American venture has seen him take on the likes of Byron Mitchell (KO'd by Calzaghe in 2003) and some guy that Cleverly already beat in one round, yet Erdei takes it the full 8 rounds. Erdei is a terrible product of the times. The most padded record for a long reigning champion ever. Awful guy.

Strange..Warren protecting a Warren fighter...

Anyone really expect anything different. Clev is not a world level fighter and he and Warren are fully aware of that.

Another Calzaghe esque rain is to be expected.

Think you're right...Bellew is ordinary and nearly beat him!!

Sure Frank expected an easy night....Wouldn't have fought Groves either had he expected him to be as good on the night as he was!

shocking defense, if you can even call it that.

What'd you mean?? ..His nose is a third glove..

Is there any reason for this instead of a Bellew rematch?

bellchees wrote:Is there any reason for this instead of a Bellew rematch?

He will get paid handsomely by an anti-virus company for advertising their product.

This guy has beaten nobody of note. He fights bums, one of his most recent wins was againt a guy called McFail.

Awful and ill-disguised fight, worst I've seen in a while. I want Clev to do well but without saying how he'd do above Euro/fringe world level he and Warren are fooling nobody, they could be doing better and are choosing not to.

Old school Warren tactic in itself, picking a date two months off and using the fact that no top name would accept such pathetic preparation time to say that they avoided Clev. Probably also offered Hopkins a pitiful sum, when they know very well he's focusing on Dawson, for the same reason.

I will truly savour the day Warren and his quick-money ilk have withdrawn their suckers from the sport.

Cleverly isnt ready for the top guys in the division from what I have seen but this match is pretty damn poor by almost any reckoning and hard to really explain what purpose it serves.

On the other hand though, there is also alot of stuff written about regards Cleverly that is really highly unrealistic I think. The chances of Hopkins being interested in a fight with him either professionally or financially are quite minimal. He is probably tied up with business with Dawson in any case. Expecting Warren to be able to deliver a Hopkins fight with the kind of money to satisfy both camps is hard to see at present.

Shumenov or possibly Erdei would be more plausible but still think Cleverly needs more experience before hes ready for those matches. Cleverly got his title a bit too early really, but you cant really blame him for taking the opportunity when presented.

Thing is, I don't think any of us are truly expecting Hopkins or a Dawson. We are really expecting Euro/Fringe world level opposition, but considering he isn't even putting him in with tested euro opposition it's disgraceful. Cleverly's best name is still Karo Murat, that's a major problem. You could argue it's Bellew but considering he wasn't even a tested Euro level opposition, I would argue against.

I mean this Karpency guy, what has he done to warrant a world title fight!? He was beaten by Karo Murat 3 fights ago, which by the way was before Murat had faced Cleverly so this was a couple of years back, after that he had one fight against a guy called Julius Jackson who had lost his previous 5 and had a 3 - 7 record, and then had one fight in 2011 against a guy called Andre Hemphill who was 10-16, and then he gets a world title fight? What utter garbage.

Its a poor fight, no real argments about that.

Its a surprisingly bad opponent. Cant believe that this is the best they could find, and although Im not sold on Cleverly he is levels above this. I thought Warrens new channel would put a stop to this garbage; if he puts rubbish on tv people will not pay out.

To play devils advocate, at least he is keeping busy, and all world title reigns contain their share of cans.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Its a surprisingly bad opponent. Cant believe that this is the best they could find, and although Im not sold on Cleverly he is levels above this. I thought Warrens new channel would put a stop to this garbage; if he puts rubbish on tv people will not pay out.

To play devils advocate, at least he is keeping busy, and all world title reigns contain their share of cans.

So far 100% of Cleverly's opponents have been below world level, that's the main problem.

This is another problem, I can't believe I'm paying £60 for this guff, will not be renewing unless BoxNation coughs up a decent fight.

Agreed Alex, hard to justify giving Cleverly a few easy defenses given how he "won" the belt in the first place (not his fault though).

I am surprised by this fight, its like Warren is giving us the finger its so bad. I dont see who is going to be interested.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Its a surprisingly bad opponent. Cant believe that this is the best they could find, and although Im not sold on Cleverly he is levels above this. I thought Warrens new channel would put a stop to this garbage; if he puts rubbish on tv people will not pay out.

To play devils advocate, at least he is keeping busy, and all world title reigns contain their share of cans.

So far 100% of Cleverly's opponents have been below world level, that's the main problem.

This is another problem, I can't believe I'm paying £60 for this guff, will not be renewing unless BoxNation coughs up a decent fight.

The main problem as I see it is the current boxing environment lends itself to picking up world titles easy, often without the need to be massively world class. I dont think you can blame the likes of Cleverly or Warren from taking advantage of this. If Warren can secre a title shot and Cleverly can avail of it then its unrealistic to expect them not to.

Cleverly actually hasnt been matched all that easily so far, relative to his level. Bellew as it turned out was a highly competitve defence and a well matched opponent.

The problem is Celverly is not a bonfide world champion, but is expected to act like one which is above his current level. I can appreciate the obvious disatisfaction with having a world champion who doesnt appear to be world class but I dont really think its the fault of the fighter or in this case promoter either. The problem is having numerous titles with shoddy ranking systems which allows this kind of thing to happen. Theres simply no point in putting him with Hopkins, Dawson, Pascal etc because your just accepting a defeat and its questionable at this stage of Cleverlys career if these guys would even be tempted to fight him given the money generated.

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Its a surprisingly bad opponent. Cant believe that this is the best they could find, and although Im not sold on Cleverly he is levels above this. I thought Warrens new channel would put a stop to this garbage; if he puts rubbish on tv people will not pay out.

To play devils advocate, at least he is keeping busy, and all world title reigns contain their share of cans.

So far 100% of Cleverly's opponents have been below world level, that's the main problem.

This is another problem, I can't believe I'm paying £60 for this guff, will not be renewing unless BoxNation coughs up a decent fight.

The main problem as I see it is the current boxing environment lends itself to picking up world titles easy, often without the need to be massively world class. I dont think you can blame the likes of Cleverly or Warren from taking advantage of this. If Warren can secre a title shot and Cleverly can avail of it then its unrealistic to expect them not to.

Cleverly actually hasnt been matched all that easily so far, relative to his level. Bellew as it turned out was a highly competitve defence and a well matched opponent.

The problem is Celverly is not a bonfide world champion, but is expected to act like one which is above his current level. I can appreciate the obvious disatisfaction with having a world champion who doesnt appear to be world class but I dont really think its the fault of the fighter or in this case promoter either. The problem is having numerous titles with shoddy ranking systems which allows this kind of thing to happen. Theres simply no point in putting him with Hopkins, Dawson, Pascal etc because your just accepting a defeat and its questionable at this stage of Cleverlys career if these guys would even be tempted to fight him given the money generated.

Excellent points as always Manos, but I look at it with the eyes of he is a world champion, he holds one of the 4 major belts, therefore he should be facing world class opposition and that is the end of it. No doubt he has generally been facing fighters of his level (Except for this next matchup which is a joke) however in my view his level should be world class, however moving onto your point you are most certainly correct and in a way you can't blame Warren for taking advantage of the situation and getting Cleverly a belt to hold for a while whilst he can milk it with subpar opposition.

Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

Think people would be a little more forgiving if his opponent was not quite to god awful, think if we are realistic none of us expected him to be facing Dawson or Hopkins but between Hopkins and this guy there is a hell of a lot of room and surely someone not quite so ordinary could have been secured, hard to see other than keeping busy Nathan acheives from this, will not learn anything or improve in this kind of company.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

These guys never won a world title though. The situation with them is slightly different. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking on those fights. Had any of them come across a world title in the way Cleverly did I would have serious doubts if they would be getting straight in with the top guys in the division. I also dont think you can blame Cleverly for the manner in which he got his belt. He was the guy turning up to fight while Braehmer went missing time and time again for one reason or another. Cleverly did nothing wrong and was willing to contest the title in the ring.

My view is that I dont think Cleverly is world class really and that he needs time to develop still. This next fight I would concede appears to be a seriously sub par but aside from that I dont have too many complaints over how he has been matched so far. I that kind of opponent became the norm then I would certainly raise issue but while I doubt we will be seeing Hopkins anytime soon I also think this next fellow might just have been a case of wanting to keep Cleverly active after talks with Shumenov fell through.

Warren strikes again.

This really is a terrible fight. How the hell WBO can sanction a defence against someone ranked so low is tragic.

Its almost like Rocky 1.

Could this be a consequence of Boxnation, if the channel isn't doing the best subscription numbers as we all expect then maybe this is the best Warren could afford..... I'm presuming this guy is probably getting paid peanuts and is more just gratefully at a shot that he definitely hasnt and probably never will earn on merit.

So in order for Warren to make some profit of the fight he had to go for such low level opposition? Just a thought.

Warren is a very rich man. Don't let anyone tell you different.

I don't think profit was his main aim for this fight, its to keep Cleverley active

Ricky Burns WANTS to fight above his level, he wants to be famous and doesn't care about money. He wants to carve a legacy and be Britains first real multi-weight champion in a long time. He wants to get to Welterweight eventually.

Theres no heavyweights around for Chisora to fight that would generate any interest. Can you imagine trying to promote Chris Arreola vs Derek Chisora?

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

These guys never won a world title though. The situation with them is slightly different. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking on those fights. Had any of them come across a world title in the way Cleverly did I would have serious doubts if they would be getting straight in with the top guys in the division. I also dont think you can blame Cleverly for the manner in which he got his belt. He was the guy turning up to fight while Braehmer went missing time and time again for one reason or another. Cleverly did nothing wrong and was willing to contest the title in the ring.

My view is that I dont think Cleverly is world class really and that he needs time to develop still. This next fight I would concede appears to be a seriously sub par but aside from that I dont have too many complaints over how he has been matched so far. I that kind of opponent became the norm then I would certainly raise issue but while I doubt we will be seeing Hopkins anytime soon I also think this next fellow might just have been a case of wanting to keep Cleverly active after talks with Shumenov fell through.

Funny how Warren can deliver decent-ish opponents for Ricky Burns and get Chisora a shot at both Klitschkos, but Cleverly is still fighting bums

Funny in what sense? Chisora may well get a shot the Klitschkos but its not a good fight for him in my view. Bit of a mismatch really. The heavyweight division is also easy to get a title shot in.

I dont think Cleverly has been fighting bums. Hes been matched quite sensibly relative to his ability and level. The opposition has not been world class because Cleverly himself is not world class. I dont think its great promotion to stick Cleverly in with Hopkins right now as a point of principle. He isnt ready.

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

These guys never won a world title though. The situation with them is slightly different. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking on those fights. Had any of them come across a world title in the way Cleverly did I would have serious doubts if they would be getting straight in with the top guys in the division. I also dont think you can blame Cleverly for the manner in which he got his belt. He was the guy turning up to fight while Braehmer went missing time and time again for one reason or another. Cleverly did nothing wrong and was willing to contest the title in the ring.

My view is that I dont think Cleverly is world class really and that he needs time to develop still. This next fight I would concede appears to be a seriously sub par but aside from that I dont have too many complaints over how he has been matched so far. I that kind of opponent became the norm then I would certainly raise issue but while I doubt we will be seeing Hopkins anytime soon I also think this next fellow might just have been a case of wanting to keep Cleverly active after talks with Shumenov fell through.

Funny how Warren can deliver decent-ish opponents for Ricky Burns and get Chisora a shot at both Klitschkos, but Cleverly is still fighting bums

Funny in what sense? Chisora may well get a shot the Klitschkos but its not a good fight for him in my view. Bit of a mismatch really. The heavyweight division is also easy to get a title shot in.

I dont think Cleverly has been fighting bums. Hes been matched quite sensibly relative to his ability and level. The opposition has not been world class because Cleverly himself is not world class. I dont think its great promotion to stick Cleverly in with Hopkins right now as a point of principle. He isnt ready.

If he's not world-class/not ready for world level opponents, his fights shouldn't be marketed and sold as world title fights.....

Why? He is a world champion and holds a world title. His fights are world title fights. Your blaming the fighter for the flaw in the system.

[quote="alma"]

manos de piedra wrote:

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

These guys never won a world title though. The situation with them is slightly different. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking on those fights. Had any of them come across a world title in the way Cleverly did I would have serious doubts if they would be getting straight in with the top guys in the division. I also dont think you can blame Cleverly for the manner in which he got his belt. He was the guy turning up to fight while Braehmer went missing time and time again for one reason or another. Cleverly did nothing wrong and was willing to contest the title in the ring.

My view is that I dont think Cleverly is world class really and that he needs time to develop still. This next fight I would concede appears to be a seriously sub par but aside from that I dont have too many complaints over how he has been matched so far. I that kind of opponent became the norm then I would certainly raise issue but while I doubt we will be seeing Hopkins anytime soon I also think this next fellow might just have been a case of wanting to keep Cleverly active after talks with Shumenov fell through.

Funny how Warren can deliver decent-ish opponents for Ricky Burns and get Chisora a shot at both Klitschkos, but Cleverly is still fighting bums

Funny in what sense? Chisora may well get a shot the Klitschkos but its not a good fight for him in my view. Bit of a mismatch really. The heavyweight division is also easy to get a title shot in.

I dont think Cleverly has been fighting bums. Hes been matched quite sensibly relative to his ability and level. The opposition has not been world class because Cleverly himself is not world class. I dont think its great promotion to stick Cleverly in with Hopkins right now as a point of principle. He isnt ready.

If he's not world-class/not ready for world level opponents, his fights shouldn't be marketed and sold as world title fights.....[/quote]

Where I stand on it, I can understand that Warren and Cleverly are exposing the system and milking itfor all it's worth. still doesn't make it right, they aren't world level opponents, so it shouldn't be for a world title.

[quote="AlexHuckerby"]

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

alma wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes its the systems fault Manos, but its very irritating when Warren and Cleverly throw big names around then proceed to force another can down our throats. I know they have to sell him, but still.

Also, the likes of Chisora, Barker, Murray, Macklin, Rhodes, Hatton jr and Munroe are willing to get in with their betters, hoping to make a name for themselves and learn something. I dont think that Cleverly should get a free pass to fight nobodies on account of him blagging a belt on the sly.

These guys never won a world title though. The situation with them is slightly different. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking on those fights. Had any of them come across a world title in the way Cleverly did I would have serious doubts if they would be getting straight in with the top guys in the division. I also dont think you can blame Cleverly for the manner in which he got his belt. He was the guy turning up to fight while Braehmer went missing time and time again for one reason or another. Cleverly did nothing wrong and was willing to contest the title in the ring.

My view is that I dont think Cleverly is world class really and that he needs time to develop still. This next fight I would concede appears to be a seriously sub par but aside from that I dont have too many complaints over how he has been matched so far. I that kind of opponent became the norm then I would certainly raise issue but while I doubt we will be seeing Hopkins anytime soon I also think this next fellow might just have been a case of wanting to keep Cleverly active after talks with Shumenov fell through.

Funny how Warren can deliver decent-ish opponents for Ricky Burns and get Chisora a shot at both Klitschkos, but Cleverly is still fighting bums

Funny in what sense? Chisora may well get a shot the Klitschkos but its not a good fight for him in my view. Bit of a mismatch really. The heavyweight division is also easy to get a title shot in.

I dont think Cleverly has been fighting bums. Hes been matched quite sensibly relative to his ability and level. The opposition has not been world class because Cleverly himself is not world class. I dont think its great promotion to stick Cleverly in with Hopkins right now as a point of principle. He isnt ready.

If he's not world-class/not ready for world level opponents, his fights shouldn't be marketed and sold as world title fights.....[/quote]

Where I stand on it, I can understand that Warren and Cleverly are exposing the system and milking itfor all it's worth. still doesn't make it right, they aren't world level opponents, so it shouldn't be for a world title.

I never said it was right, I just dont blame Cleverly for it and think he is better served going about his career at the pace he is now than rushing into fight the top guys in the division before he is ready simply to appease a point of principle.

As rowley said (who is always correct), there is a long way between Hopkins and the goon hes fighting (with respect to the feller). The problem here is that Clev is fighting pretty far below a world level opponent by the looks of things (although to be fair I havent seen him, he might be better than suggested here.)

Agree wholeheartedly that Cleverly is a symptom of the problem, rather than the root of it - but even so, there's no defence for this kind of fight, Manos. I agree with you that Hopkins and Dawson were always unlikely and will remain so for a while, perhaps for good. But Shumenov? Campillo? Bellew II? Cloud? Why not someone of this ilk?

As I said, Cleverly isn't alone in this respect, and naturally any fighter in his position would have jumped at the chance to become a 'world champion' just as he did. But even allowing for that, his competition for someone given that status has been a farce thus far.

I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

Not saying you've defended this particular fight, Manos, but you have shown a certain amount of leeway towards Cleverly and his opposition so far which I don't think he deserves from anyone, though of course that's just the way I see it.

Would you really say that Cleverly has been 'well matched' so far? I'd contend not, personally. The fact that he's twenty-three fights in to his career, topping bills and also holding a strap, but is still being shyed away from the likes of Erdei and Shumenov as they are 'massive risks', would surely support that belief? It's entirely plausible that Bellew could be the best he's faced so far, which is simply ridiculous given Cleverly's current status. If you mean well matched in the sense that he's been guaranteed wins, then you're right. But if we're talking in the usual terms - i.e, fighting opponents of an appropriate level and at least solid credentials - then I'd totally disagree.

In the days of four belts (or more) per weight class, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for the top one or two in the division may just about be acceptable. But even now, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for men ranked in the top dozen is, quite frankly, a joke.

88Chris05 wrote:

In the days of four belts (or more) per weight class, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for the top one or two in the division may just about be acceptable. But even now, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for men ranked in the top dozen is, quite frankly, a joke.

Agree wholeheartedly, this is my issue with all this, it is all too want your cake and eat it, fighters and promoters want the kudos, profile and to cut to the chase money that comes with a world title without the difficult things that come with such a status such as fighting tough, capable world class opponents. Appreciate all the arguments that it was not Warren or Nathan that created such a situation and are merely the beneficiaries of it but this does not mean I have to like or accept the situation happily.

To be fair this is more like the Chisora vs Wlad fight than it might first appear.

Anyway, God awful match up. Warren can poke it up his hoop.

manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

I agree he was well matched up to (and including) Murat. His career path had followed a steady and sensible crescendo. However post Murat I don't think it can be defended so easily. Let's not forget, the word 'matched' implicity means based on pre-fight perception rather than ex-post. On that basis Bellew can only be considered a 'domestic level' match up that Clev should've be well beyond, strap holder or not, plus he's fought a Euro level fighter in Mohammedi (who he struggled with) and a Euro bum in Kuziemski and now he's fighting a Yank bum.

That is not well matched in any sense of the word other than being comfortable low-risk opposition.

88Chris05 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

Not saying you've defended this particular fight, Manos, but you have shown a certain amount of leeway towards Cleverly and his opposition so far which I don't think he deserves from anyone, though of course that's just the way I see it.

Would you really say that Cleverly has been 'well matched' so far? I'd contend not, personally. The fact that he's twenty-three fights in to his career, topping bills and also holding a strap, but is still being shyed away from the likes of Erdei and Shumenov as they are 'massive risks', would surely support that belief? It's entirely plausible that Bellew could be the best he's faced so far, which is simply ridiculous given Cleverly's current status. If you mean well matched in the sense that he's been guaranteed wins, then you're right. But if we're talking in the usual terms - i.e, fighting opponents of an appropriate level and at least solid credentials - then I'd totally disagree.

In the days of four belts (or more) per weight class, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for the top one or two in the division may just about be acceptable. But even now, a WBO champion 'not being ready' for men ranked in the top dozen is, quite frankly, a joke.

How was he garaunteed wins against Bellew or Braehmer - who he never got to face for a host of reasons and which meant he had to face short notice replacements?

I think if you look at his career its progressed at a very acceptable pace. He won the commonwealth title in his 12th fight. Added the British title a couple of fights later. Progressd to Euro level and won the vacant Euro title and then after a series of withdrawals from Braehmer he fought for interim status and then got the world title outright less than a year ago. Was scheduled to Braehmer again, but had to settle for another replacement at short notice through no fault ofhis own and then defended once against Bellew in what was a good match up. After that he entered into talks with Shumenov which didnt go through and he has, in my view, gone with a soft defence with one eye on a bigger fight in the Summer which will suit either the Hopkins or Shumenov camps more given the circumstances.

I see fights with the likes of Shumenov, Erdei or Cloud as no better than 50/50 fights for Cleverly at best so in that sense I think he could do with more experience. You may think its a joke but I just see it as a reflection of Cleverly becoming a world champion before he was genuinely world class.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

I agree he was well matched up to (and including) Murat. His career path had followed a steady and sensible crescendo. However post Murat I don't think it can be defended so easily. Let's not forget, the word 'matched' implicity means based on pre-fight perception rather than ex-post. On that basis Bellew can only be considered a 'domestic level' match up that Clev should've be well beyond, strap holder or not, plus he's fought a Euro level fighter in Mohammedi (who he struggled with) and a Euro bum in Kuziemski and now he's fighting a Yank bum.

That is not well matched in any sense of the word other than being comfortable low-risk opposition.

So you are blaming him for Braehmer not showing up for any of their scheduled fights?

I'm amazed that some dont seem to understand, or want to understand, the business side of boxing and the complexities of match-making, especially for a young up and coming fighter.

Titles are two-a-penny nowadays. Take a look at Alvarez. Holding the WBC belt yet still a work in progress. No way will he be over-matched at this stage of his career. Its hardly his fault that the mexican based WBC bent over to take it up the jacksie to accommodate another mexican starlet.

Clev gets ebat by any other LH vhampion bar one and Pascal, Dawson et al would eat him alive at the mo too. Problem is Clev is a champ not yet at champ level.Hence terrible match ups like this

People understand it perfectly well Azania, there is a world of difference though between understanding it and liking it.

manos de piedra wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

I agree he was well matched up to (and including) Murat. His career path had followed a steady and sensible crescendo. However post Murat I don't think it can be defended so easily. Let's not forget, the word 'matched' implicity means based on pre-fight perception rather than ex-post. On that basis Bellew can only be considered a 'domestic level' match up that Clev should've be well beyond, strap holder or not, plus he's fought a Euro level fighter in Mohammedi (who he struggled with) and a Euro bum in Kuziemski and now he's fighting a Yank bum.

That is not well matched in any sense of the word other than being comfortable low-risk opposition.

So you are blaming him for Braehmer not showing up for any of their scheduled fights?

I'm saying that isn't "well matched".

azania wrote:I'm amazed that some dont seem to understand, or want to understand, the business side of boxing and the complexities of match-making, especially for a young up and coming fighter.

I'd say the majority of us understand that just fine, thanks. God knows, we've heard enough about it.

As I said myself, someone in Cleverly's position not being ready for a Hopkins or Dawson, given the ridiculous number of titles on offer and the like, is understandable. What is not understandable at all is someone in Cleverly's position being deemed not ready for the division's top ten or so names. Alvarez, who you mentioned, isn't in the same boat in that sense - his level of opposition leaves Cleverly's trailing in it's wake.