The Jeff: An analysis of the effects of the RWC.

Tables at 09/10/11: (end of English interest in RWC)

Team P W D L F A F-A TBP LBP BP Pts
Harlequins 6 6 0 0 189 117 +72 2 0 2 26
Saracens 6 5 0 1 153 95 +58 1 1 2 22
Sale Sharks 6 4 0 2 154 144 +10 1 2 3 19
London Irish 6 3 0 3 185 158 +27 2 3 5 17
Exeter Chiefs 6 3 0 3 118 127 -9 1 2 3 15
Gloucester 6 3 0 3 126 125 +1 0 2 2 14
Bath Rugby 6 3 0 3 127 131 -4 0 2 2 14
London Wasps 6 3 0 3 121 133 -12 1 1 2 14
Northampton 6 2 0 4 109 108 +1 0 1 1 9
Worcester 6 2 0 4 82 121 -39 0 1 1 9
Leicester 6 1 0 5 152 194 -42 0 3 3 7
Newcastle 6 1 0 5 99 162 -63 0 1 1 5

Tables at 01/01/12: (current)

Team P W D L F A F-A TBP LBP BP Pts
Harlequins 12 11 0 1 317 195 +122 3 0 3 47
Saracens 12 9 1 2 252 189 +63 1 1 2 40
Northampton 12 7 0 5 286 201 +85 2 2 4 32
Leicester 12 6 1 5 319 306 +13 3 3 6 32
Sale Sharks 12 6 0 6 266 291 -25 1 4 5 29
London Irish 12 5 1 6 285 279 +6 2 5 7 29
Gloucester 12 5 1 6 260 233 +27 1 5 6 28
Exeter Chiefs 12 5 0 7 226 242 -16 1 6 7 27
Bath Rugby 12 5 0 7 216 226 -10 0 3 3 23
Worcester 12 4 1 7 154 205 -51 0 3 3 21
London Wasps 12 4 0 8 191 257 -66 1 4 5 21
Newcastle 12 2 1 9 197 345 -148 0 1 1 11

Table as would stand since RWC (England) ended

Team P W D L F A F-A TBP LBP BP Pts
Leicester 6 5 1 0 167 112 +55 3 0 3 25
Northampton 6 5 0 1 167 93 +74 2 1 3 23
Harlequins 6 5 0 1 128 78 +50 1 0 1 21
Saracens 6 4 1 1 99 94 +5 0 0 0 16
Gloucester 6 2 1 3 134 108 +26 1 3 4 14
Exeter Chiefs 6 2 0 4 108 115 -7 0 4 4 12
Worcester 6 2 1 3 72 84 -8 0 2 2 12
London Irish 6 2 1 3 100 121 -21 0 2 2 12
Sale Sharks 6 2 0 4 122 153 -29 0 2 2 10
Bath Rugby 6 2 0 4 89 95 -6 0 1 1 9
London Wasps 6 1 0 5 70 124 -54 1 3 5 7
Newcastle 6 1 1 4 98 183 -85 0 0 0 6


Rugby club RWC commitments:

England:


1 Leicester Tigers 6 + 1 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood plus Waldrom)
2 Saracens 2 (Stevens, Wigglesworth)
3 Gloucester 1 (Tindall)
4 Northampton Saints 5 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood)
5 Bath Rugby 5 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan, Hape)
6 London Irish 2 (Corbisiero, Armitage)
7 Harlequins 1 (Easter)
8 Exeter Chiefs 0
9 London Wasps 2 (Simpson)
10 Sale Sharks 2 (Sheridan, Cueto)
11 Newcastle Falcons 0
12 Leeds Carnegie 1 (Thompson)

Total releases (dragged out from an historical post):

I have asterisked dubious claims as the player had not yet been availalable

Leicester Tigers - 11


Ben Youngs,Tom Croft,Manu Tuilagi,Louis
Deacon,Dan Cole and Toby Flood (England), Castrogiovanni (Italy),
Ayerza, Horacio Agulla (Argentina), Geordan Murphy (Ireland) and Alesana
Tuilagi (Samoa)



Saracens - 8

Jacques Burger
(Namibia),Chris Wyles and Hayden Smith (USA), Michael Tagicakibau
(Fiji),Kelly Brown (Scotland), Richard Wigglesworth and Matt Stevens,
John Smit* (South Africa)



Northampton Saints - 8

Tongauiha
(Tonga), Vasily Armitiev (Russia), Courtney Lawes,Dylan Hartley,Nick
Wood,Chris Ashton and Ben Foden (England), George Pisi (Samoa)



London Irish - 8

Shontayne
Hape*,Delon Armitage, Corbisierio (England), Sailosi Tagicakibau
(Samoa), Joe Ansbro (Scotland), Alfredo Lalanne (Argentina), Paulica Ion
(Romania), Jebb Sinclair (Canada)



Sale - 7

Mark
Cueto and Andrew Sheridan (England), Richie Vernon and Alasdair
Dickinson(Scotland), Andy Powell (Wales),Wame Lewaravu (Fiji) andTony
Buckley (Ireland)


Gloucester - 7

Alastair Strokosch, Hamilton, Lawson x 2 (Scotland), Mike Tindall (England), Akapusi Qera (Fiji) and EFS (Samoa)



Bath -5

Matt Banahan, Lee Mears, Lewis Moody and Wilson (England), Francois Louw (South Africa)




London Wasps - 3

Steve Thompson, Joe Simpson (England), Zak Taulafo (Samoa)


Harlequins - 3

Nick Easter (England), Tomas Vallejos (Argentina), Mauri Fa'Asuvala- (Tonga)


Exeter Chiefs - 2

Craig Mitchell (Wales), Gonzalo Camacho (Argentina)



Worcester - 2

Ravai Fatiaki (Fiji), Aleki Lutui (Tonga)



Newcastle - 1

Euan Murray (Scotland)

And yet to come of course there are seven(ish) weeks of EPS IWs to come shortly to upturn the table once again.

I'd say thatthe 'Table as would stand since RWC (England) ended' shows precisely why the playoffs are a con.

Playoffs are not a con. It gives Leicester and Saints a chance to win the title despite being unlikely to get top 2.

How are John Smit or Shontayne Hape dubious claims?

You might as well say numerous players who had not yet played a game for their club were dubious omissions.

That would mean scratching out most of Sale's omissions, the likes of Pisi and Armitiev from Saints, Louw from Bath etc.

Poor Leicester. 4th in the table. It must be really bad to be that low for you. Leicester don't have a divine right to be top of the table.

I think the biggest impact the RWC has is not just the absence of players, but more so is the fatigue of players that had a long tournament with tough games.

When players returned to their clubs after the RWC, some looked very unaffected and carried on. Others particularly in Wales where they had played a number of very physically demanding matches back to back looked off form on return to the regions.

Surely its comepltly the opposite Portnoy? Surely that proves the playoffs are the best way for a fair league, generating revenue for clubs and the rfu, raising the profile of club rugby ( even more importnat in a WC year) and for the fans to get a spectacle.

Theres a reason why every major professional league in the world has them.

Whats interesting is that whilst Tigers and Saints fell apart without their missing players ( although Tigers always start the seaosn slowly partly due to how they strcuture their fitness and strength traininG) whereas Saracens results have been pretty much the same with and without theirs. They managed to unerath a new core of very good talent, and show some genuine squad depth. A fair bit of that is English too.

maestegmafia wrote:I think the biggest impact the RWC has is not just the absence of players, but more so is the fatigue of players that had a long tournament with tough games.

When players returned to their clubs after the RWC, some looked very unaffected and carried on. Others particularly in Wales where they had played a number of very physically demanding matches back to back looked off form on return to the regions.

I thought most of them returned to France?
At least Warburton got an extra few days rest

No question thats true. Theres was a coupel of weeks lag before the returning players starting really having an effect at Tigers. Cockerill made a big hoo ha about the state some of them were in when they came back ( although he does seem to be heavy on the excuses these days)

From an interntaional side point of view you can understand why the Unions want some form of control of the players through central contracts of one kind or another. The EPS agreement enables England to insist on rests for players, and run their fitness programmes as well as monitoring the state they are in.
The clubs have obviously been keen to wring every minute possible out of the players since they came back, quite underdtandable, but the international sides will want them fit and raring to go for the 6 Ns. Mind by the looks of how things are shapeing up there will only be a handfull of Engfland WC players in the 6 Ns....



Portnot I know you have very little to do with your life, how about working out estimates of who will becalled up from each club for the 6Ns?
For Tigers Im assuming Cole, Flood, Youngs, Tuillagi (if/when fit), and Castro with 36 and Parling ( if/when fit) possibles, I guess Waldrom an outside chance as well.. Im assuming Ireland will go without Murphy.
They may not be as devastated as they have been in previous seasons, but Im guessing its still more than most Jeff clubs.

I personally feel that Tigers were desperately unlucky with injuries. Any stats for who and how many were missing in that world cup period who weren't part of the world cup squads?

I think the injuries had just as much impact. It's difficult to blame the injuries on anyone. It's simply bad luck. Big difference between 11 missing and 20 missing.

Saints in my opinion have no excuses. They seem to get relatively few injuries in general. Their woes were in my opinion down to over emphasis on the first XV.


Peter seabiscuit wheeler.

Im assuming Ireland will go without Murphy

He's retired from international rugby.

I think the injuries had just as much impact. It's difficult to blame the injuries on anyone. It's simply bad luck. Big difference between 11 missing and 20 missing.

Big difference from missing 9+ (depending on which week) squad players and 11 first teamers. We could have perhaps done alright with the injuries or with the international call ups. You are right in pointing out the combination of the two was what killed us for the first 6 weeks.

Looking at that table, it seems as if most teams are in more or less the same positions as Leicester and Northampton pre and post WC.

Leicester had so many injuries at the same time as the WC is hard to draw too many conclusions, except that they were very unlucky?
You could argue that Northamptons surge sicne the WC shows that they don't have enough squad depth and rely too much on their 1st XV, which was shown to be true last season.

EPS/Saxons squad:

Club EPS (Saxons) Total
Saints 8 (2) 10
Tigers 6 (5) 11
Sarries 6 (2) 8
Quins 4 (5) 9
Bath 2 (3) 5
Wasps 2 (3) 5
Irish 1 (5) 6
Glous 1 (5) 6
Chiefs 0 (1) 1
Worcs 0 (1) 1
Newcastle 0 (0) 0

Stade 1 (0) 1
Scarlets 1 (0) 1


Table before 6Ns

Harlequins	13	11	0	2	320	219	+101	3	0	3	47
Saracens	13	10	1	2	278	208	+70	1	1	2	44
Northampton Saints	13	8	0	5	310	204	+106	2	2	4	36
Leicester Tigers	13	7	1	5	348	317	+31	3	3	6	36
London Irish	13	6	1	6	306	298	+8	2	5	7	33
Exeter Chiefs	13	6	0	7	242	252	-10	1	6	7	31
Sale Sharks	13	6	0	7	285	312	-27	1	5	6	30
Gloucester Rugby	13	5	1	7	275	254	+21	1	6	7	29
Worcester Warriors	13	5	1	7	175	220	-45	0	3	3	25
Bath Rugby	13	5	0	8	235	252	-17	0	4	4	24
London Wasps	13	4	0	9	202	286	-84	1	4	5	21
Newcastle Falcons	13	2	1	10	207	361	-154	0	2	2	12

Table without lost IW games:
Table as would stand since RWC (England) began
Team P W D L F A F-A TBP LBP BP Pts
Leicester 7 6 1 0 198 123 +55 3 0 3 29
Northampton 7 6 0 1 191 96 +85 2 1 3 27
Harlequins 7 5 0 2 131 102 +50 1 0 1 21
Saracens 7 5 1 1 125 113 +12 0 0 0 20
Worcester 7 3 1 3 93 95 -2 0 3 3 17
London Irish 7 3 1 3 121 140 -21 0 2 2 16
Exeter Chiefs 7 3 0 4 124 125 -1 0 4 4 16
Gloucester 7 2 1 4 149 129 +20 1 4 5 15
Sale Sharks 7 2 0 5 141 172 -29 0 3 3 11
Bath Rugby 7 2 0 5 108 121 -13 0 2 2 9
London Wasps 7 1 0 6 81 153 -72 1 3 4 8
Newcastle 7 1 1 5 108 199 -91 0 1 1 7



http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/157226.html


Just a note for when I do a full analysis of the effect of International games on the final table outcome.

by the end of the season it will be interesting to see who gets home games in the playoffs.

It seems the EPS gets pulled from the correct teams, you go down through the standings and compare to the numbers in the EPS and it does, roughly, follow how good the side is over a course of half a season.

Does the analysis not hint at an over reliance by Tigers and Saints on highly paid marquee players. With 2/3rds of the first teamers gone to a large extent, their replacements, while talked up on the likes of 606v2, are a long way back in terms of being quality replacements right now?

Does the analysis not hint at an over reliance by Tigers and Saints on highly paid marquee players. With 2/3rds of the first teamers gone to a large extent, their replacements, while talked up on the likes of 606v2, are a long way back in terms of being quality replacements right now?.

I don't think either have hedged their bets on marquee names as such. Sure there are big name players but if you take 2/3rds of anyones first team away they are going to struggle as the salary cap is restrictive. Tigers suffered the double blow of a mass of injuries at the same time as the RWC which is what did them over. A decent backline was available but the pack wasn't there to take advantage (especially in the front row).

If anything Tigers are known for being fairly tight when it comes to salary and instead ask the player to buy into the ethos of the club and know that they will be well looked after and get good coverage etc etc.

thebandwagonsociety I agree to a certain extent. Certainly Saints put a lot of effort and emphasis on their first XV. That's their bread and butter. This has led to less strength in depth than some of their rivals like Sarries and Leicester. This meant they struggled in the world cup period without their stars.

Saints are rectifying this problem though with the signings of the likes of Lamb,Armitiev,Cato and PDJ as well as more trust in some of their youngsters. They are slowly moving from a 1st XV mentality to a squad mentality.

Leicester have simply been unfortunate with injuries which made the world cup call ups far worse.

Looking ahead to the 6 nations, and likely starters, itll be bad news for Saints again.

Tigers will miss Castro, Cole, Youngs Flood, Croft and Tuilagi for the whole torunament. On paper pretty devasting but they have perfectly good cover in all positions now the squad is relativly injury free. Far from ideal but they are well prepared for it.

Saints will lose Wood, Lawes, Hartley, Ashton Foden and possibly Clark or even Dowson with Dickson a possibility as Youngs' bench cover. Struggling to think off the top of my head if they have anyone in the other teams 6N squads other than Ansboro? Its a hell of a chunk to lose.
Two tough away fixtures to Irish and Saracens in the 6 nations period too.

Saracens could be without Barrit, Botha, Stevens. Farrell, Hodgson, and Strettle plus maybe Goode for the first game but after that the call ups are likely to affect them a lot less as guys come back form injury. Assuming Farrell and Barrit stay in the matchday squads through the torunament thats tough, but not as bad if Hodgson returns once Flood is fit.

Quins will only certainly lose Robshaw. JTH, Brown and Marler are also possible but less ceratin. Its unlikley they will be hit hard by England callups anyway.


The games in the 6 nations could see Saints lose their spot in the playoffs again, and should enable Quins to rertain their gap at the top.

Another placeholder:

Table before 6Ns

Harlequins 13 11 0 2 320 219 +101 3 0 3 47
Saracens 13 10 1 2 278 208 +70 1 1 2 44
Northampton Saints 13 8 0 5 310 204 +106 2 2 4 36
Leicester Tigers 13 7 1 5 348 317 +31 3 3 6 36
London Irish 13 6 1 6 306 298 +8 2 5 7 33
Exeter Chiefs 13 6 0 7 242 252 -10 1 6 7 31
Sale Sharks 13 6 0 7 285 312 -27 1 5 6 30
Gloucester Rugby 13 5 1 7 275 254 +21 1 6 7 29
Worcester Warriors 13 5 1 7 175 220 -45 0 3 3 25
Bath Rugby 13 5 0 8 235 252 -17 0 4 4 24
London Wasps 13 4 0 9 202 286 -84 1 4 5 21
Newcastle Falcons 13 2 1 10 207 361 -154 0 2 2 12

Table without lost IW games:
Table as would stand since RWC (England) began
Team P W D L F A F-A TBP LBP BP Pts
Leicester 7 6 1 0 198 123 +55 3 0 3 29
Northampton 7 6 0 1 191 96 +85 2 1 3 27
Harlequins 7 5 0 2 131 102 +50 1 0 1 21
Saracens 7 5 1 1 125 113 +12 0 0 0 20
Worcester 7 3 1 3 93 95 -2 0 3 3 17
London Irish 7 3 1 3 121 140 -21 0 2 2 16
Exeter Chiefs 7 3 0 4 124 125 -1 0 4 4 16
Gloucester 7 2 1 4 149 129 +20 1 4 5 15
Sale Sharks 7 2 0 5 141 172 -29 0 3 3 11
Bath Rugby 7 2 0 5 108 121 -13 0 2 2 9
London Wasps 7 1 0 6 81 153 -72 1 3 4 8

Table after 6Ns




Sunday, 4 March 2012 18:50 UK

	Team	P	W	D	L	F	A	BP	PTS
1	Harlequins	17	13	1	3	398	294	4	58
2	Saracens	17	12	1	4	348	273	4	54
3	Leicester	17	10	1	6	457	373	8	50
4	Northampton	17	10	0	7	400	289	7	47
5	Exeter	17	9	0	8	322	299	9	45
6	Gloucester	17	8	1	8	348	348	7	41
7	Sale	17	8	0	9	375	419	8	40
8	Bath	17	8	0	9	324	316	7	39
9	London Irish	17	6	1	10	375	395	10	36
10	Worcester	17	6	1	10	234	298	5	31
11	Wasps	17	5	0	12	283	382	7	27
12	Newcastle	17	3	2	12	274	452	3	19

beshocked wrote:

Poor Leicester. 4th in the table. It must be really bad to be that low for you. Leicester don't have a divine right to be top of the table.

Yeah, except this year and based on current form, I wouldn't bet against them finishing top and winning the paly-offs.

I'm commenting no further until the league season is over.

Portnoy shame you twist things to suit only your club. Funny that you don't seem to be moaning about the 6 nations. Funny that. Not.

Any more stats up your sleeves to show how immense the Tigers are?

Equo Troiana it's very unlikely you'll catch Harlequins. They are simply too far ahead You could sneak ahead of Saracens despite continually winning less games. Don't bet against it then.

Tigers are one of the form sides in the AP at the moment but with tricky encounters to Saints and Quins to come who knows....

They are simply too far ahead You could sneak ahead of Saracens despite continually winning less games.

Which is not good for Sarries, the purchases of Hodgson and Tomkins in particular were supposed to help give you an additional edge in attack. Why aren't Sarries wracking up more bonus points? 4 bonus points according to the table and 4 losses, I'll assume they mostly go hand in hand as Sarries defence generally halts the chance of a severe loss. How come you've scored over a hundred less points than Tigers? It's not like Sarries are lacking attacking options. Tigers were even dire for the first 6 games of the season (we gifted you 50 points and a BP then).

Tigers are one of the form sides in the AP at the moment but with tricky encounters to Saints and Quins to come who knows....

The Saints one is going to be very spicey indeed. Hoping for now ugliness in that one and a BP would be good. Quins away we might nick, we owe them after they beat us at Welford Rd and we will take heart from the LV Cup victory (our youngsters beat theres). The Bath game at the end of the season could be a banana skin as they will be seething having been dumped out of the LV Cup and will have a point to prove. Tigers do need that 2nd place spot, I wouldn't fancy Sarries in the semis at a neutral venue. I'd want them at Welford Rd.

beshocked wrote:

Any more stats up your sleeves to show how immense the Tigers are?

English Premierships: 1988, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2007, 2009, 2010
Anglo-Welsh Cups: 1979, 1980, 1981, 1993, 1997, 2007,2012
Heineken Cup: 2001, 2002


Hows that for a start?

As I said, I'm keeping until the regular season is over.

Sam you know it's not as a simple as signing players then hey presto tries galore!

Tomkins is not yet ready. Big gamble which might not work. Still needs to adapt.

Hodgson has arguably lost some of his attacking flair now he's with Saracens but his defence has improved greatly.

You know exactly what our gameplan is like. It's rigid - build on kick and chase plus good defence. If we score tries that's all well and good but the win is the most important thing.

Our style means we don't play an expansive game.


Whatever keeps you happy PSW. Also those stats tell me you should focus a little bit more on Europe.

beshocked wrote:Tigers are one of the form sides in the AP at the moment but with tricky encounters to Saints and Quins to come who knows....

I doubt Leicetser are worried about either encounter. They've had Saints on toast of late and Quins is hardly an unhappy hunting ground for Tigers, especially in current form. And despite continually losing more games than Saracens? I think you ought to wake up and smell the coffee, Saracens very quickly got to where they are in the table and have.....stayed there. Tigers, well, one from bottom at Christmas and now just a win away from leapfrogging Saracens... which, they probably will. And lets not forget, Tigers have won one cup and don't have the added complication of the HEC to worry about, unlike a certain other team.

I don't buy that, Sarries have reduced the kick and chase game considerably since Hodgson arrived. The ball and point of attack is moved far more often than last season. Sometimes Sarries are left lacking a little penetration in the midfield. Probably why Ashton has been signed up. The injuries to the backrow could be effecting this or is there a lack of imagination on the coaching bench, Farrell Snr showed little innovation in attack with the England backs.

Also those stats tell me you should focus a little bit more on Europe

There's only so much attention can be placed on Europe. Can't risk being knocked out of the top 6 and not qualifying for the following season. There has been two HEC finals since we last won the thing, one somewhat closer than the other.

Portnoy, boo hoo - cry me a river

Equo Troiano wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tigers are one of the form sides in the AP at the moment but with tricky encounters to Saints and Quins to come who knows....

I doubt Leicetser are worried about either encounter. They've had Saints on toast of late and Quins is hardly an unhappy hunting ground for Tigers, especially in current form. And despite continually losing more games than Saracens? I think you ought to wake up and smell the coffee, Saracens very quickly got to where they are in the table and have.....stayed there. Tigers, well, one from bottom at Christmas and now just a win away from leapfrogging Saracens... which, they probably will. And lets not forget, Tigers have won one cup and don't have the added complication of the HEC to worry about, unlike a certain other team.

When I mean losing continually more games than Saracens I refer to this season and last season. Unfortunately bonus points seem to be worth more than wins which is a shame. Yes Leicester could leapfrog Saracens because of bonus points just like the previous two seasons.

Very few people care about the Low Value Cup. Well done on winning it though. True Leicester don't have the HC as a complication but that's not exactly a good thing. You want to be in contention for the top silverware on offer.

Leicester have done well so far but don't count your chickens just yet.

beshocked wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tigers are one of the form sides in the AP at the moment but with tricky encounters to Saints and Quins to come who knows....

I doubt Leicetser are worried about either encounter. They've had Saints on toast of late and Quins is hardly an unhappy hunting ground for Tigers, especially in current form. And despite continually losing more games than Saracens? I think you ought to wake up and smell the coffee, Saracens very quickly got to where they are in the table and have.....stayed there. Tigers, well, one from bottom at Christmas and now just a win away from leapfrogging Saracens... which, they probably will. And lets not forget, Tigers have won one cup and don't have the added complication of the HEC to worry about, unlike a certain other team.

When I mean losing continually more games than Saracens I refer to this season and last season. Unfortunately bonus points seem to be worth more than wins which is a shame. Yes Leicester could leapfrog Saracens because of bonus points just like the previous two seasons.

Very few people care about the Low Value Cup. Well done on winning it though. True Leicester don't have the HC as a complication but that's not exactly a good thing. You want to be in contention for the top silverware on offer.

Leicester have done well so far but don't count your chickens just yet.

Oh, i doubt they'll have to rely on bonus points to do that this year...

Leicester have done well so far but don't count your chickens just yet.

I don't think we have. Certainly a lot of the play up to February was pretty average and Tigers never really got out of say 3rd gear. Turned up slightly when we beat Sarries and Saints in the league but it's been a bitty season. The major uplift is mainly thanks to Cockers long term view as we are now looking at some young squad player chomping at the bit and we have a depth in squad we lacked last season.

I still think there's more to come but Quins and Sarries are more settled in their form and routines where as we are experimenting to find that extra edge.

The bonus points system is just part of the scoring process, would you change it to a complete win bias?

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't buy that, Sarries have reduced the kick and chase game considerably since Hodgson arrived. The ball and point of attack is moved far more often than last season. Sometimes Sarries are left lacking a little penetration in the midfield. Probably why Ashton has been signed up. The injuries to the backrow could be effecting this or is there a lack of imagination on the coaching bench, Farrell Snr showed little innovation in attack with the England backs.

Also those stats tell me you should focus a little bit more on Europe

There's only so much attention can be placed on Europe. Can't risk being knocked out of the top 6 and not qualifying for the following season. There has been two HEC finals since we last won the thing, one somewhat closer than the other.

Sam Leicester are too good a side not to comfortably be in the top 6 of the AP.

Injuries is not an excuse. Our players filling in should be good enough. Yes midfield is a problem. Been struggling there for some time. Just can't get the right balance. Need Tomkins to step up to the mark.

We'll see Equo Troiano. You are no Mystic Meg.

Yes of course Leicester don't turn up when they beat opposition do they Sam?

Only in 3rd gear? Every team could say you haven't seen the best from them.

I feel like you are making excuses for some of your losses - being unsettled etc. Every side has had their disruptions. I think arguably the most are Saints and Wasps.

I don't know about the bonus points system. It has it's good and bad points.

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't buy that, Sarries have reduced the kick and chase game considerably since Hodgson arrived. The ball and point of attack is moved far more often than last season. Sometimes Sarries are left lacking a little penetration in the midfield. Probably why Ashton has been signed up. The injuries to the backrow could be effecting this or is there a lack of imagination on the coaching bench, Farrell Snr showed little innovation in attack with the England backs.

Also those stats tell me you should focus a little bit more on Europe

There's only so much attention can be placed on Europe. Can't risk being knocked out of the top 6 and not qualifying for the following season. There has been two HEC finals since we last won the thing, one somewhat closer than the other.

Sam Leicester are too good a side not to comfortably be in the top 6 of the AP.

Injuries is not an excuse. Our players filling in should be good enough. Yes midfield is a problem. Been struggling there for some time. Just can't get the right balance. Need Tomkins to step up to the mark.

But in almost the same breath you say that Leicester don't have the God given right to be top of the league every year. But by the same rationale, they have the right to be top six in the league?

Don't need to be Mystic Meg btw, look at the run ins. Top of the league is difficult but achievable but I would be suprised if Leicester didn't finish in second 4 points clear of Saracens, who could still finish 4th.

If we can beat Sarries at Wembley I will feel confident about the post-season. If not, then not so much

Equo Troiana fine if that's how you feel. Just don't fall into the trap of hubris. Underestimate every side at your peril.

Never said Leicester have a right to be in the top 6. Just think the strength in depth Leicester have is so good that they should feel confident they will stay there.

beshocked wrote:

Never said Leicester have a right to be in the top 6. Just think the strength in depth Leicester have is so good that they should feel confident they will stay there.

Okay, let me put it another way - By the exact same (YOUR) rationale and given what you've just said - why shouldn't Leicester feel confident about finishing top of the league - and, if they don't, why they may be disappointed?

Equo Troiano wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Never said Leicester have a right to be in the top 6. Just think the strength in depth Leicester have is so good that they should feel confident they will stay there.

Okay, let me put it another way - By the exact same (YOUR) rationale and given what you've just said - why shouldn't Leicester feel confident about finishing top of the league - and, if they don't, why they may be disappointed?

Look at the league table perhaps? Quins should be too far ahead to catch. Even for Saracens.

It's out of Leicester's hands to an extent. They would be relying on opposition to beat Quins (of course they need to beat them too).

But you said that Leicester don't have a God given right to finish top of the league - and you're right.

But neither then, should they expect to finish in the top six simply because they have a large squad and confidence.

Which is what you said.

Equo Troiano there is a difference between confidence and complacency.

Your interpretation of what I say is different to how I feel so please don't assume and presume things without full knowledge please.

Well, likewise.

Yes of course Leicester don't turn up when they beat opposition do they Sam?

Only in 3rd gear? Every team could say you haven't seen the best from them.

I feel like you are making excuses for some of your losses - being unsettled etc. Every side has had their disruptions. I think arguably the most are Saints and Wasps.

There was no excuse they just haven't played as well as the can do for much of the season. That changed a bit after the Exeter game and the youngsters coming through have added some competition which has been good for us. Yes we have to play well to beat teams but I don't think we've had many memorable performances this season. It's about time we turned it up a bit, hopefully starting with LI at the weekend.

Look at the league table perhaps? Quins should be too far ahead to catch. Even for Saracens

Hardly, Sarries only need Quins to slip up once more than them and they will be level. It could easily come down to bonus points collected in the remaining games (that might not suit Sarries).

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano there is a difference between confidence and complacency.

Your interpretation of what I say is different to how I feel so please don't assume and presume things without full knowledge please.

Well then perhaps you should learn to articulate how you feel better when writing. Just a thought.

All of this discussion is completely and utterly pointless. All it achieves is raising people's blood pressure.

Simple fact is Tigers were affected during the WC more than any other team due to callups and injuries. This affected them - but the team that was left behind should still have done better.

Saracens have been affected by call ups and injuries during the 6Ns (as have Tigers) and again the team left behind underperformed during this international window.

Neither side have played especially well during the AP season - yet they are in 2nd and 3rd place in the league.

In the end though that is why we have the play-offs.


(ps I am off to the Royal Albert Hall now to see my daughter singing. Please try not to bicker too much)

ps I am off to the Royal Albert Hall now to see my daughter singing. Please try not to bicker too much

Very nice, congratulations to her.

Equo Troiano wrote:

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano there is a difference between confidence and complacency.

Your interpretation of what I say is different to how I feel so please don't assume and presume things without full knowledge please.

Well then perhaps you should learn to articulate how you feel better when writing. Just a thought.

I understoood his point perfectly well. Perhaps you could try reading twice over before trying to nitpick .

Thank you Kiwiredevil I apologise for getting angry. This same poster under yet another alias enjoys to wind up, specifically myself.

I take exception to the condescending manner.

The only poster I personally have a problem with is this multi alias poster whose disguises himself as a Leicester fan.