Flood could now also be out for 6 weeks!

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http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/7411609/Fitness-fears-for-Flood

Toby could miss the first few 6N games - I guess that opens the door for Charlie Hodgeson to start and for Farrell and Freddie Burns to come into the setup.

It does look like existing EPS members are dropping like flies - Flood, Tuilagi, Deacon, possibly Lawes, Mears, Wigglesworth (granted the last 2 may not have been selected anyway).

Cumbrian do you think that Farell has the pace to be a modern International 13 ? I think 12 would be better option for him.

If Tuilagi is out then Cumbrian is right - it will likely be the Sarries combination just so that there is some continuity (and with Farrell senior backs coach). It makes Andys job that much easier.

All starting to get rather daunting now I must say. Flood has never been my favourite 10 for England, does challenge the gain-line well and looks comfortable in attack. For me he tends to be a touch limited at times, firstly with the old inside ball trick which never seems to change no matter how many times it's smashed backwards in a game. It's this adaptability that troubles me about Flood, he doesn't perceptibly alter his game much when tried methods tend to fail.

Having said all that I think he does have leadership qualities and his partnership with Youngs would have been vital in a relatively inexperienced team.

I have always liked Hodgson, we know he has the best passing game of anyone in the Jeff, and his attacking skills are wonderful. He can be affected by pressure in international games, but having played for Sarries I think his management and defence have improved immeasurably. Indeed it was already better way back in 2010 - ref England v NZ Moari, he ran that first half superbly. With Barritt outside him I think he will do well.

The key with such a new group will be a tough dominant pack. Maybe Lancaster with consider retaining Easter given his experience. Whilst i've never rated his 'leadership' or lack thereof, he would add experience to the team, particularly for the first game at Murrayfield. That, or it's chuck everyone in at the deep end and see who learns the breast stroke quickly.

My team for 4th Feb Scotland v England:

1. N Wood
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. D Attwood
5. T Palmer
6. C Robshaw
7. T Wood
8. N Easter
9. B Youngs
10. C Hodgson
11. C Sharples
12. B Barritt
13. H Trinder
14. C Ashton
15. B Foden

16. G Chuter 17. P Doran-Jones 18. G Robson 19. T Croft 20. B Morgan
21. J Simpson 22. M Brown

It's Murrayfield where England have had issues, it's the Scots who will do everything to slow the game to a snail's pace and it's going to be awful weather. So I have gone with a bit of experience and a good backup kicker and solid FB in Mike Brown. *NB Barritt can and has played FH in his time, and I felt the boot of Brown and his solidity in potentially difficult conditions may be an important factor. Risky, but until internationals get up to speed and give an extra bench option that's my call for this game.

Cymroglan - I dont think Farrell has the pace for 13, but IMO he would be a stop gap till Manu is back. Then 1st choice is Barritt-Manu.

Makes you wonder what a sillybilly Cipriani must be feeling right now say on the wrong side of the world staring at a chance to relive 2008 gone begging. Haskell too has really missed a trick by not being available.

Chjw131,
Most of us had been expecting Lancaster to retain Ester but its already been leaked thats he dropped him Tindall and Cueto. The rest of your side, except Wood, seems pretty close to what the concensous view is that it will be. The 8 shirt is likley to be contsed between Morgan and Narraway, with Robshaw Waldrom Guest and Dowson the other possibilities.

I agree with you that its a real banana skin fixture for England, more so with the injuries pileing up. Scotrland will love a chance to get in amongst the English kids and test their nerves. Not a fun one to start with and I suspect the start of a miserable winter.

I'm inclined to agree with you Peter, it's going to be a tough fixture and one the Scots I think will be relishing. It all depends on how the youngsters go, Barritt and Trinder have a real edge about them and I don't think they'll be intimidated. Sharples and some of the pack i'm not so sure about. I'd like to see Guest there at some point, but he needs a lot of rugby for Quins first, which with Easter reportedly staying there he may struggle with.

I saw the rumoured dropping of Easter but I think it will be a mistake for this match hence I included him.

Cymroglan - I dont think Farrell has the pace for 13, but IMO he would be a stop gap till Manu is back. Then 1st choice is Barritt-Manu. .

Tempting to bring in another tactical kicker and an expert points scorer off of the tee against the Scottish but that would push us towards a forward based game. I'm not sure England will have the cohesion in the pack to force Scotland back. Scotland have a good lineout and scrum which limits the tactical kicking aspect a tad and with their defence and line speed they tend to force penalties rather than surrender them. I think maybe pace might be more of a weapon than another kicker. Trinder has been part of the saxons and played against the Baabaas so he should know most of the other players.

Sam what you are talking about is the big worry for England in this fixture. I dont see them as able to put out a side that can bully and grind a win in appalling conditiuons, they will have to try and outplay Scotland. That will be extremly difficult if consitions are anything like youd expect.
This really is the best game for the likes of youngs, burns, trinder, may , sharples etc to show off their skills. Nor is it likley to be the sort of game where a fast mobile backrow will be able to generate quick ball and get the tempo up.

I wouldnt be amazed if we see Hodgson Farrell Banahan
Trinder is a Lancaster man though, as is Clegg. Barrit isnt, but 36 is. Theres so many possibilities.

Don't forget who will be coaching the backline peter seabiscuit.

I think Farrell is an option for the extra kicker agreed, but what's the point if you can't play a dominating pack. I do think England could put a pretty heavy old pack out, particularly with 6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Easter/ Morgan. I agree that it would seem England have to use the backline talent, but as i've said before and we've all acknowledged this game won't be it, they have to compete up front and I think they can do that.

Billy Twelvetrees has fallen off the radar recently I though and still do that him and Trinder could be a very good pairing for England.
Billy has a world class distribution off both hands and Trinder has great vision and awareness combined with genuine out and out pace. The only thing that could count against him in the modern game is the fact he is a bit lightweight.

beshocked wrote:Don't forget who will be coaching the backline peter seabiscuit.

So they will run toward the nearest defender, get tackled, flap about for a bit expecting them to let theym recycle to ball and gget all confussed when the flankers appear and steal the ball and the rest of the defence doesnt retreat 10m?
Brilliant.

Cymroglan 36 and Trinder would be a good pairing I agree, particularly with Billy's size and weight. I don't think Trinder is that lightweight, certainly not as much as Jonny May anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cymroglan - I dont think Farrell has the pace for 13, but IMO he would be a stop gap till Manu is back. Then 1st choice is Barritt-Manu. .

Tempting to bring in another tactical kicker and an expert points scorer off of the tee against the Scottish but that would push us towards a forward based game. I'm not sure England will have the cohesion in the pack to force Scotland back. Scotland have a good lineout and scrum which limits the tactical kicking aspect a tad and with their defence and line speed they tend to force penalties rather than surrender them. I think maybe pace might be more of a weapon than another kicker. Trinder has been part of the saxons and played against the Baabaas so he should know most of the other players.

I agree with the pace route, England don't have the dominant pack of old to try and grind a result out in the forwards. The only reason we should play teritory is if the weather is very wet and/or windy (which I hope it's not).

Hey Jamie Noon was only ....blah blah blah stone etc etc

Its one of the big things in Billys favour that whilst being a bit of a beast hes far from a pure lump and has an all round game, like the player Engand used to pretend Flutey was. He looked damn sharp in the Sale game.
Id still see him as an outside bet simply because of the lack of gametime hes had behind Allen.
Lancaster does love him though so you never know.

I think hoping the weather won't be against us is about all that can be done in terms of playing a great 15 man game. It's Scotland and it's February the odds of habitable conditions are between nothing and sod all I would say. Hence the pack and tactical route the only way I would venture. You only need to look at the Jeff recently to see what wet ground and a determined skillfull opposition can do - Gloucester v Sarries, Quins v Sarries, Quins v Exeter etc...

I think 36 will be great but you're right Peter he needs more game time, he looked better the back end of last season I would say, but good v Sale. Will Cockers give him the chance though? Look at poor old George Ford..!

Billy Twelvetrees has fallen off the radar recently I though and still do that him and Trinder could be a very good pairing for England.

He started the season well, including breaking Tigers record for the most points scored in one game by a single player (vs Wasps). An ankle injury had him out of a while and I don't think he was fully fit on his initial return. Sparkling form at the minute though and has easily the most committed and hardest working back on show against Sale as well as having a hand in two tries (making the initial break off of two Flood passes).

Barritt is the clear favourite for the 12 shirt but Twelvetrees might sneak into the squad if he can put a couple more good performances in. His ability to play an attacking game from 10/12/13 might see him sneak onto the bench if the injury issues continue, he's also covered on the wings before now as well. Lancaster likes his utility backs on the bench.

Look at poor old George Ford..!

George Ford has not long turned 19 has had more than 10 games this season and Tigers have found him a loan move to get him more first team action. Don't think you'd call him poor. Farrell didn't break into the Sarries team until he was 19 going on 20 Ford has still got another year to develop before reaching that age.

According to some reports I read from last week, before the injuries Lancaster planning to pick a 10, 12 & 13 combo of Flood, Farrell and Tuilagi against Scotland. If this is true then he obviously likes a strong kicking option at 12 (and he picked Twelvetrees before Allen & Barritt for the Saxons) then perhaps it's not so far fetched that Bill T makes the full EPS, although personally I don't think he is ready. Plus I would have been mad if Barritt didn't get picked at 12. Then again I'm not a selector anyway.

No I wouldn't call him poor you're right. He had more than 10 games because it was the WC and I believe Staunton was injured, not because Cokerill was trying to give him a decent go.

My issue with the treatment of George Ford is twofold. One, he played superbly at the U20 WC winning, as you know young IRB Player of the Year, against some superb talent from OZ, SA and NZ. I admit it's not truly senior rugby but on the strength of that I feel he would deserve a bench spot for Tigers. Secondly, when you add that to his admirable stewardship of a fairly ropey Tigers side at the start of the season I feel he's been over burdened with blame for their failings. How is it Cockerill can rely on a centre (36) as a make-shift FH and Staunton to cover Flood is frankly beyond me. I feel he's played well deserves at least the bench to learn from and has been hard done by a bit, but it's just my opinion.

Just to note that he needs regular testing at the top flight, not fighting with his brother for selection at Championship Leeds. I'm sure you'll know that Jonny Wilkinson was just 18 when he made his England debut, already a regular at Newcastle.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
George Ford has not long turned 19 has had more than 10 games this season and Tigers have found him a loan move to get him more first team action. Don't think you'd call him poor. Farrell didn't break into the Sarries team until he was 19 going on 20 Ford has still got another year to develop before reaching that age.

The deal to Leeds could end much sooner than expected if Flood is out and Twelvetrees does make the EPS.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

George Ford has not long turned 19 has had more than 10 games this season and Tigers have found him a loan move to get him more first team action. Don't think you'd call him poor. Farrell didn't break into the Sarries team until he was 19 going on 20 Ford has still got another year to develop before reaching that age.

Further, the benchmark for FH and the Jeff shouldn't be Farrell, a player who George Ford utterly displaced at FH for the U20's for the entire tournament and was playing with guys up to 2 years older than him! Rant over, I apologise to all concerned!

This is a real shame about Flood now being on the injured list.But like it has already been said it could well be a bleshing in disguise.It could be a golden opertunity for the likes of Farrel, Burns, to get a chance to show that they can step up to international level.

But who will be the 2 centres for England i am thinking that Brad Barrit has to be one of them is Farrel good enough for international games at center? what about Hodson at 10 Farrel and Barrit in the centre, after all three play that way for Sarries.

What with Danny Care being dropped wha will step up for the reserve 9 shirt.

England are starting to look a real mess at the moment what with players being injured, being retired from the team and being dropped for wrong doings off the field.

It could be a very different team to the one most poeople was looking forward to seeing. A young and inexperience side, but you never know they might just surprise every body with the right coaching.

We will just have to waite and see i guess.

[quote="Chjw131"]

formerly known as Sam wrote:

George Ford has not long turned 19 has had more than 10 games this season and Tigers have found him a loan move to get him more first team action. Don't think you'd call him poor. Farrell didn't break into the Sarries team until he was 19 going on 20 Ford has still got another year to develop before reaching that age.

Further, the benchmark for FH and the Jeff shouldn't be Farrell, a player who George Ford utterly displaced at FH for the U20's for the entire tournament and was playing with guys up to 2 years older than him! Rant over, I apologise to all concerned!

George Ford is playing for a championship side currently.Owen Farrell is playing for the English champions. No comparison. Owen Farrell outplayed Toby Flood who is much higher up the Leicester hierachy in the AP final. Farrell's Sarries also hammered Tigers when Ford was their fly half. Poetic justice for the laughable favouritism of George Ford in the Junior U20s.

You can use the whole "but he's younger" argument for anyone. Maybe George Ford is the next messiah but he's actually got to play top notch rugby.


Sam if we are being pedantic Owen Farrell actually had one of his first games for Sarries at fly half in last November. http://www.saracens.com/news/match-centre/view.php?Id=384

He was born in September so no he didn't break into the team just as he was turning 20. He started when approx 19 and 2 months. Since then he started many games at fly half.

Ford has potential but no more. It's ridiculous to compare the two players. Farrell is much further ahead in regards to progression currently. Farrell has an AP winning medal, made Flood look foolish, has played a fair few HC games now and quite a few AP games. Also Farrell is firmly on the England radar.

Further, the benchmark for FH and the Jeff shouldn't be Farrell, a player who George Ford utterly displaced at FH for the U20's for the entire tournament and was playing with guys up to 2 years older than him!

Bear in mind Farrell only got his chance in the first team because of injuries to Goode and Hougaard. Some pretty inconsistent form from Goode at 10 certainly helped as well. Now Hodgson is on the scene he's stuck filling a gap at 13.

Ford will do well at Leeds and it gets him playing competitive matches and having to defend against players much older and much bigger than he is. I hope we see a bit more of him this season but Cockerill is becomming reknowned for pushing young players hard to show they deserve to wear the Tigers shirt. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The likes of Tom Youngs, Ben Youngs, Sam Harrison, Manu Tuilagi etc have bought into the system and done well but others haven't and we have lost out on some decent young player who might not have been international quality but could have been good squad players. The likes of Gillanders, Everard and Joe Cobden are all doing well at smaller Prem or Championship clubs.

He was born in September so no he didn't break into the team just as he was turning 20. He started when approx 19 and 2 months. Since then he started many games at fly half.

I meant that he was 19/20 as he cemented himself in the first team. Ford made his debut at 16 playing 10 for Tigers in the LV Cup ("On 8 November 2009 he became the youngest Rugby Union player to make his professional debut in England at just 16 years and 237 days old"). Ford has played more games for Tigers than you'd think but is being drip fed into the first team. I was making the point that he is still young and should not be expected to be pushing into the first team yet.

Owen Farrell outplayed Toby Flood who is much higher up the Leicester hierachy in the AP final. Farrell's Sarries also hammered Tigers when Ford was their fly half. Poetic justice for the laughable favouritism of George Ford in the Junior U20s

Farrell didn't play a lot of rugby in that final though did he. He kicked it every time he got it and won the game because he was an excellent points kicker and had the brutal Sarries defence to win him penalties. His inability to run a back line was painfully evident in his one and only start at 10 in the JWC where he was pretty dire. He played rather well at 12 for the rest of the tournament alongside Ford though.

Farrell did his job well though - he kicked all his goals and defended very well. If he had missed one kick or Flood had kicked one of his two misses it is likely Leicester would have won. The fine margins are what counts. Farrell was instrumental in the win whatever you might say of his limitations.

Most players get their chance when someone is injured!

No he wasn't 19/20. He was 19 when he cemented his place. You don't play games for over 6 months as the starting fly half and not cement your place!

Ford played in the joke cup. No one really cares about it. Farrell played in the joke cup when 17 and 11 days.

Until Ford nails down a starting squad spot in Leicester - the Farrell vs Ford argument is firmly in Farrell's favour.

I agree with you that his defence should certainly improve in the Champ, and yes he's young so has plenty of time on his side. My point was simply that it seems a case of baby out with the bathwater so to speak, and I actually felt he played well for Tigers in the Jeff this season and now appears to have been demoted. Suffice to say he'll be an excellent player for Tigers sooner rather than later and that can only be good news for all concerned.

beshocked - Well whre do we start here?! Firstly as FKSam pointed out Farrell played approximately bugger all rugby in the AP Final, and his ability as a goal kicker is beyond question I agree. But to insinuate that he somehow won the thing by his sheer presence is laughable, Sarries won that on good old fashioned solid foundations and out Tiger'd Tigers in that final. To then a) claim that that somehow makes Farrell vastly superior to Ford is ridiculous and then to claim that it was only "laughable favouritism" that got GFord into the 10 shirt all U20's is naiive to the point of being dellusional.

I suppose the IRB panel who picked him for Player of he Year were also overrawed by some backhanders and so forth from some mystery GFord benefactor would you say? Did you even watch the U20 trournament? As FKSam also points out when Farrell was trusted with running a backline properly he made a pretty poor job of it and was subbed for Ford, Farrell moving to 12 where again as noted, he did play very well. 12 for me is Farrell's best position by a stretch; that's why he's been displaced by Hodgson.

And whilst Farrell is indeed much farther ahead, it's certainly not ridiculous to compare the two. That sort of view fails to take anything into account other than where people have got to, sometimes purely by good fortune. Not that Farrell isn't a talent, but he had his opportunity and was allowed to develop as there were no other options. I suppose you would feel then, on that logic, that a certain M. Tindall was incomparable to say Henry Trinder, given that he's so far ahead of him and all....

formerly known as Sam wrote: The likes of Gillanders, Everard and Joe Cobden are all doing well at smaller Prem or Championship clubs.

Isn't Everard doing quite well at Wasps now though? Getting a few consistent starts at openside I think...

beshocked wrote:

Until Ford nails down a starting squad spot in Leicester - the Farrell vs Ford argument is firmly in Farrell's favour.

In which case it's useless to discuss and compare talented young players because until they somehow magically force their way onto the scene they're just untapped potential as far as you are concerned. What you're not doing is looking at the relative attributes of each player and coming to a judgment, all you want to see is what have they achieved. By definition achievement of medals in a fifteen man team game is not difinitive proof of quality over and above a player who hasn't achieved the same.

Its also useless to compare the progress of these players with Johnny - who as we all know was a one-off.

Chjw131 Owen Farrell has shown his style is relatively similar to Jonny Wilkinson. Do you belittle Jonny Wilkinson like you are Farrell? By the way no I am not saying OF is as good as Jonny yet, just saying his strengths are similar to those of Jonny. Good mental strength,strong defence and excellent kicking. Also Farrell is only 20.

To say Farrell did approximately bugger all in the final is highly disrespectful. You seem to be under the deluded impression that anyone can just stroll up to take penalty kicks in a high pressure hugely important match and stroke the penalties over.

It was Farrell's conversion of the Saracens side's hard work into points. Without Farrell kicking all his kicks Saracens would have lost. Was Farrell the best player on the pitch? No, that was Brits but Farrell nailed all his kicks.

Flood showed how difficult it is by missing two chances. Also Flood hardly shone either because his side couldn't break down the Saracens defence.

The accusation is that all OF can do is kick. The same accusation thrown at JW who helped England win a rugby world cup.

Isn't Everard doing quite well at Wasps now though?

Yep, played a few games for them. He was seriously brilliant for a long time at age grade levels but the further through the age grades he got the less he seemed to kick on. Doing alright for Wasps at the minute. Joe Cobden is playing a mix of centre and fly half for Nottingham (mostly from the bench) and Gregor Gillanders is settled as the Bedford blindside.

Its also useless to compare the progress of these players with Johnny - who as we all know was a one-off

Farrell reminds me a bit of Wilko actually. Solid in defence, very good kicking game from hand and from tee but not the greatest distributor. Ford is very different though, much smaller and a very good kicker from hand but not the tee. Great reader of the game.

SafeAsMilk wrote:It's all very well blooding new players, but with some new faces likely to be on the scene in the centres anyway I'd like an experienced 10 like Hodgson in the side against Scotland. He's on fine form and, no offence to Scotland, but they're hardly going to give him a torrid time like New Zealand did all those years ago!

Oh I wouldn't bet on that. Good fast back row and so long as we don't play desparate dan a decent takling standoff

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trinder is a Lancaster man though, as is Clegg. Barrit isnt, but 36 is.

Out of those players, Barritt has actually had the most Saxons caps from Lancaster (6), and it would have been more if he hadn't been called up to the senior squad in NZ mid 2010 Churchill Cup or pulled from the 2011 Churchill Cup squad due to a hernia operation.



Hodgson to start at FH with Burns on the bench for me. Burns ability to cover FB (as can Sharples), also gives greater flexibility for the 22 shirt. I'd go for May there as wing/centre cover, although he's also played FB for Gloucester and I think England U20s before.

beshocked wrote:
The accusation is that all OF can do is kick. The same accusation thrown at JW who helped England win a rugby world cup.

..spent the last 4 years not even managing to get that right

niwatts wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trinder is a Lancaster man though, as is Clegg. Barrit isnt, but 36 is.

Out of those players, Barritt has actually had the most Saxons caps from Lancaster (6), and it would have been more if he hadn't been called up to the senior squad in NZ mid 2010 Churchill Cup or pulled from the 2011 Churchill Cup squad due to a hernia operation.



Hodgson to start at FH with Burns on the bench for me. Burns ability to cover FB (as can Sharples), also gives greater flexibility for the 22 shirt. I'd go for May there as wing/centre cover, although he's also played FB for Gloucester and I think England U20s before.

Fair enough. I knew he played for the Saxons a while back but I wasnt aware he'd had that many caps.
I wouldnt have May in the side, he reminds me too much of the sacrificial lambs Robinson and Ashton used to occassionaly toss in to lost causes.

RECALL FOR CIPRIANI I HEAR YOU SAY?!

Worked for Wales using mostly Ospreys

Hodgson at 10 is inevitable (unless JW can be talked back in to do a job)

Its a very flat and quick 9/10 combo

Scotland and italy will have their tails up though!!

The main issue is, can we trust Hodgson with the kicking? Sarries don't think so. If not, and you want to play him (which makes sense as given the inevitable inexperience in the centres this isn't the time to call up Burns) then you probably have to play Farrell as a centre. One option is just to play the full Sarries backline. Farrell has decent pace, if not as much as you'd really want in a 13.

Alternatively, you could play Farrell at 12 (which is clearly the best place to him to play, at least for the next few years) and either Trinder or Banahan outside him. Or, if you are feeling really adventurous, JJ. In all these cases though it's an incredibly inexperienced centre combo, the total opposite of the Hape/Tindall situation.

Twelvetrees could provide back-up to Hodgson, but he doesn't have much recent experince of kicking.

Or bring in Lamb, or even recall Cips?

Despite the unavailable players there are loads of choices, but no obvious answer.

Farrell may well be the better kicker at the moment, but how many bad games with the boot has Hodgson actually had for Saracens? I can only really remember one. Farrell took over and kept knocking them over, so Saracens sensibly stuck with him.

Historically Hodgson has always been pretty accurate from the tee, something his 1,926 all-time top premiership point scoring record attests to (next highest being Goode with 1,543 points).

But he hasn't kicked regularly under pressure for, what, 8 months? Just throwing him in there in a game that may well come down to kicking, is a risk.

As would be selecting a centre pairing that you don't consider your best for the speculation of a boot, when for all his composure at club level you don't know how that player will respond to the pressure of his first international cap at Murrayfield.

Personally, I'd say that is a bigger risk, and far better to select your best players and trust someone with Hodgson's ability to get his kicking right.

Twelvetrees could provide back-up to Hodgson, but he doesn't have much recent experince of kicking.

Kicked for several games at the start of the season whilst Ford was at 10. We'll see if he's any more consistent this weekend. Well I hope so anyway, really hope Staunton isn't at 10!

But he hasn't kicked regularly under pressure for, what, 8 months? Just throwing him in there in a game that may well come down to kicking, is a risk..

Didn't he kick against Gloucester last week as Farrell was on the bench? Hodgson is a good points kicker (how many was it in a row last season?) it's just that Farrell is better. Not sure that's the basis to put Farrell in the centres though. If you desperately wanted another kicking option in the backs put Homer on the wing, he's pretty close in terms of accuracy and has a bigger range than Farrell.

Sam your points basically shown that the place kicker for England is not at all secure.

Farrell should have been rested against Gloucester but Hodgson was unavailable because his wife was having a baby which is fair enough.

Homer might be close in terms of pure accuracy stats but has a lot less experience in high pressure kicking situations. I would say Farrell is the better kicker.

Hodgson simply hasn't had the goal kicking practice. He might struggle to get opportunities because Saracens have plenty of place kicking options - Wigglesworth,Farrell,Goode,Hodgson,Wyles.

Shame Wigglesworth is injured.

If England want to take a calculated gamble they could go for Burns at fly half.

It wouldn't be right in my opinion pairing Twelvetrees with Hodgson.

If Tuilagi and Flood weren't injured you could have had this backline -

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Sharples
12.Twelvetrees
13.M.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

It wouldn't be right in my opinion pairing Twelvetrees with Hodgson

That could work but I don't see the point when Hodgson is used to playing with the form AP 12 in Barritt (also the less Tigers selected the better at the moment, the thieving for the RWC left us needing wins). Back Hodgson with the kicking against Scotland and see what happens. If it is that bad then we can change it ahead of the next game against Wales. They'll be another place kicker on the bench and Youngs has kicked before if he is in that much trouble but Hodgson has kicked well for a few seasons now. The blip when he first came into the team was a long old time ago.

Homer might be close in terms of pure accuracy stats but has a lot less experience in high pressure kicking situations. I would say Farrell is the better kicker.

Neither has kicked at international level with however many thousand Scotland fans baying for blood. They'd both be out of their comfort zone at Murrayfield and I don't think there is a great deal between them. I'd still back Hodgson though, he has the experience and the ability.

You are correct Sam but Farrell has kicked in front of 40k+ crowds on a fair few occasions. Is kicking at Twickenham and Wembley really that different from Murrayfield? Farrell has those experiences under his belt. Doesn't get much more high pressure than a huge final in front of 80k+.

With Hodgson we'll have to see.

So options for 10 :

Steady Eddie Hodgson, doesnt fit Lancasters policy but would seem the sensible choice
Burn , the young flash harry who knows how that would go ?
Clegg, Lancasters Saxons FH who should be able to handle a bit of roughing up form teh Scotland backrow
Farrell, the best out of position 13 in the Jeff.

At 12:

Barrit ...the darling of the internet. A former Lancaster pick.
Twelvetrees ... the darling bud of the internet 2 years ago and a solid all round option. Lancasters Saxons 12
Farrell... the darling of the skills coach, his best position
JTH...the darling of two years ago and Lancasters Saxons bench center.

At 13
The darling bud that is Johnny May, Id be very suprissed by that selection though
Farrell, the entire internet appears against his selection here
Banahan, yes Banahan. I think he will make the EPS but not the side for Scotland. He would offer some expereince and steel and flexibility possibly form the bench though. Ive neve been a amssive fan.
Tuilagi getting fit in time, everyones first choice
Trinder, everyones second choice and Lancasters Saxons pick.


Sticking my neck out Id say Hodgosn, Clegg, Burns, Farrell, 36, Barrit, Trinder, Banahan as squad options with Hodgson 36 Trinder starting, Farrell as the bench cover. Theres plenty of equally valid possibilities though an nou doubt at leats on more injury before the Scotland game.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I like your assessment of the options.

Though obviously Flood could still feature in the 6 nations so maybe shouldn't be completely jettisoned.

Btw how does the EPS work in regards to injured players - e.g. Lawes,Flood and Tuilagi? Obviously they would be first choice picks if fit but they are unlikely to be for the first game.


Banahan is like the elephant in the room now.

I think the above post by Peter S sums up the choices and likely outcome. I don't think Clegg will make it into the EPS though, as much of a darling of Lancaster's as he is, he's had one full game in many months which I don't think is enough justification. He is a quality player though and will be given a run with Quins where he may get himself into the squad for the SA tour.

My picks would be: 10. Hodgson 12. Barritt 13. Trinder 21. Brown/Farrell given Charlie's apparent difficulty with the boot and managing a game. Although he always did well with Sale, and took some good kicks in the Moari and Barbarians games recently for England.

beshocked wrote:Peter seabiscuit wheeler I like your assessment of the options.

Though obviously Flood could still feature in the 6 nations so maybe shouldn't be completely jettisoned.

Btw how does the EPS work in regards to injured players - e.g. Lawes,Flood and Tuilagi? Obviously they would be first choice picks if fit but they are unlikely to be for the first game.


Banahan is like the elephant in the room now.

Im not sure how it works with players injured now, does he name them then immediatly name injury replacements?
Obviously theyd want Tuilagi and Flood in as permanent members, thats a given. Youd still expect a full squad of 32 fit or fittish players to be announced at the start.

I like your assesment of Banahan, it can be taken quite literaly.

I believe you can obviously swap injured players out of the EPS if they're going to be out for the tournament, but as far as Flood, Tuilagi and Lawes go they'd have to remain in to be played. I think.

The Great White Elephant as Dianne Abbott might say....