Is this the End of the Road for VVS Laxman?

India lost 6 overseas test on the go. In those 6 tests, they managed a collective score above 300 only ones. This from an experienced batting lineup consisting of some terrific cricketers, something has to give. After the SCG debacle, calls have become shriller to make changes.
Most people think Rohit Sharma needs to be given a chance. The Indian lineup has got 3 superb batters in the ranks, the legendary Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, and VVS Laxman. among the 3, Dravid had a fabulous 2011, where he ended up as the years highest run scorer in the world. Sachin hasn't been scoring hundreds regularly, but he has been producing good middling scores consistently.
But in the case of VVS Laxman, things are a little different In the overseas losses of recent times, VVS has been averaging around 20. Even when he got starts, he found ways to get out.
Virat Kohli, who promissed a lot but has failed in all the 5 overseas tests he played is there in the lineup, but it seems most guns are trained towards VVS. It was not so long ago VVS stood alone and fought out Dale Steyn and co at Durban to lead India to a fine win. He did similar things against Australia and Sri Lanka as well. In the West Indies too he contributed runs when the team needed it the most.
37 is absolutely the wrong time to get into a rough patch. But Laxman seems to be going through just that at the moment. Will he come out of it? Will he be given the opportunity to do the same? Is it worth the effort to give him some more time considering the medium and long term interests of the side?
The experts and pundits think India will have to move beyond VVS soon. I think he has it in him to score a few more crucial test runs for India. But he may not have the time to do so. India will have to do something soon so that the batting rediscovers some sense of scoring some runs. Rohit Sharma seems to have settled his attitude problems and fitness concerns. He has been in the form of his life in ODIs in the last year. May be its time for Rohit to com in.
But I'd have prefered him in place of Virat Kohli, who I still believe is a player who can be successful in the test format. But I can painfully see the logic of the argument of people whn they sy drop VVS to bring him in.
In that case though, I would say drop Kohli as well, keep him in the squad for some more time, but bring in Ajinkya Rahane and bat him at 3. Move Dravid to 5, so that the 2 rather innexperienced would not follow one another in the lineup.
What do you think? Is it the end of the road for VVS Laxman? Or is it another case of overreaction?

MSP - I'm an admirer of VVS - not least for his all time great rearguard innings v Australia. But I do rather fear that time has more or less run out for him. And especially when India have three greats all nearing the end of their career. I think India would be well advised to be building for the future and so, sadly, I think it would make sense for India to drop him for the next match.

Age catches up with us all some day, and it does seem that VVS is really struggling right now. Certainly 37 year-olds struggles always seem more serious than those ten years younger. Personally I think Rohit Sharma is probably due a chance, and the two obvious candidates to be dropped are Kohli and Laxman. Maybe it is time for India to start rebuilding their side, it would certainly help their cause long term if they could avoid losing all three of their veterans at once.

I'd probably be tempted to drop both and pick Rahane as well, who looks a very promising prospect to me.

I, like yourself and the Corporal, am a big fan of VVS Laxman. I love how he plays, those wristy flicks through mid wicket and the pure timing of his cover drives are a joy to behold. And he has played some of the best single innnings of all time, I mean his 281 against Australia must be up there in terms of all time great knocks means his place as a Test great is assured. I also agree with you msp that he certainly has a few more innings in him and if called upon he could perform well for India once more. However, I think it is time to move past him. With Sachin and Dravid also approching the end of there careers the last thing India want is to lose all three at the same time as that would leave them in a real mess. Rohit has had troubles off the pitch in the past as you alluded to, but he seems to have matured and is deserving of his chance. For me, I would bring Rohit in for VVS now, but give Kohli at least until the end of the Australian tour to prove himself a Test player, otherwise Rahane has to get a shot aswell.

Another thing that will count against VVS is that Duncan Fletched doesn't like passengers in the field. And it looks like the next generation of Indian players are bucking this trend with Rohit and Kohli being tremendous fielders and athletes, I would imagine this will only add weight to the feelings that VVS should be dropped.

JDizzle has fairly hit the nail squarely on the head there.

For me, Laxman just hasn't looked like scoring runs in this series, whereas Kohli looked good in patches at Sydney, but then got out (to an ordinary shot in the first innings, then somewhat unluckily in the second). You also have to consider the effect axing him would have on Kohli's confidence. It is not so long ago he was just about India's best batsman (albeit at home against the West Indies).

As pointed out, the effect of losing Sachin, Dravid, and Laxman within a matter of weeks would surely be problematic.

I must side with the majority: regardless of short-term benefits, it is surely time for Rohit Sharma to be given a chance. Unfortunately this must be at the expense of VVS (the only of the "big 3" who can reasonably be dropped).

Whether you do so now, or possibly after Perth (unless India win there, in which case wait for Adelaide) is debateable.

I am a big fan of putting the 11 best players on the park regardless of age - I still think VVS is one of the best 6 Indian batsman and also has a stunning record against Australia and so Rohit misses out at Perth for me, with Kohli getting a last chance (if he fails again I would bring Rohit in for him at Adelaide). Laxman also scored a good 66 in the 2nd innings at Sydney.

Yadav looked tired in the last game but conditions at Perth should suit him. Therefore, I would go with the same team but remind them they need to perform much better.

I actually think that India have a good enough set of young batsman (Mukund, Rahane, Pujara, Kohli, Badrinath (OK, he's not that young) and Rohit Sharma all have great records in FC cricket) to not worry too much about the possibility of all the big guns going at the same time. In any case I feel that they could play well into their 40s if they wanted to, remained injury free and were still performing - lets not forget that Laxman averaged 99 against West Indies at home and has averaged over 40 in Tests in all but 1 year (2004) since 2000, and over 50 in a calendar year on 7 occasions.

Shelsey, on paper India have a lot of good batsmen ready to come through the first class ranks and grab a Test place but whether they can actually do this is a different matter. Mukund and Raina were exposed in England and although they will probably get other chances there will be big pressure and big question marks over their heads. And Test cricket is a lot different to the FC stuff, as proved by Virat Kohli who is one of the best ODI batsmen in the world but is struggling to bring that form to the Test arean, so we cannot be sure on how Rahane will react although he looks to have all the raw ingredients. Pujara looked promising when he batted 3 and made a match winnning 70 against Aus(?) but that was in India and he has had injuries since so he will have to prove himself again.

I agree with you that VVS, Sachin and Dravid could all play for another year, 18 months but India don't want an "Australian" situation of losing all their key players at once which is why I would dispense with VVS now, rather than wait.

Ironically, I think India will cope fine with their young batsman. I am sure at least three or four of them will become good Test players, it is the future of their bowling attack where the worries really lie.

I don't rate Mukund. At all.

Mukund looked OK I thought in WI and in England and did hit 1 50 and a 49. Many young batsmen would struggle opening the batting against Anderson, Broad and Bresnan and he did no worse than Sehwag and Gambhir (both of whom I rate highly) did in that series.

He also has 16 FC hundreds at the age of 22 (only just 22 as well) - whilst the pitches must be considered a factor James Taylor (coincidentally born on exactly the same day as Mukund) has 10, Jonny Bairstow (also 22) has 3 and Alex Hales (23) has 4. And these are being touted by our press as future superstars.

I feel Kohli will do well although he really does need a Test hundred now to nail down his place in the side.

The difference with the Aussie situation is that Australia had hardly any spinners in the country that weren't either the same age as Warne (MacGill and Hogg) or struggled to even get into their domestic teams (Krejza, Casson, Hauritz, McGain). I feel they plugged the other gaps well enough initially - Watson for Hayden, Katich for Langer, Haddin for Gilchrist, Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Bollinger/Johnson/Harris have all been very successful quicks at various times since McGrath departed.

The problems Australia have had have been more muddled selection (fiddling around too much with spinners, axeing Katich, not even playing a proper spinner at Oval '09 or in India in '08-'09, persisting with Hughes) and the natural end of a truly great period than the problem of all the players departing at the same time.

As I wrote earlier, I too am coming round to the majority view here.
But I think then Rahane too should have his chance, he should bat at 3 and let Dravid move down to 5 so that there will be less pressure on the middle order. That may even help Dravid to deal with his recent challenges better.

it seems to be. Its a shame, but Laxman appears to have age beating him now.

Rahane's FC average (68.47), incidentally, is the 4th highest in the history of the game - behind Bradman, Vijay Merchant and George Headley.

Look I know Mukund's got a fantastic first class record, but he just shouted out "not test class" to me in the England series. Of course, England bowled well, and other Indian batsmen struggled, but my hunch is he'll struggle both against the moving ball and the short ball. So he may score runs in India, but tough to see too many from him outside the sub-continent.

Rahane on the other hand I like (technically). He needs to get used to the rigours of test/international cricket and stop playing loose shots when well set. I think moving Dravid down the order might work. At the moment he looks to me to get "stuck" a bit too easily, which allows the opposition to build pressure, and always be in the game. Am I right in saying he's never really done that well in Australia (apart from that match in Adelaide 8 years ago)?

Sadly the latest test confirms the answer "Yes"

he has never really got on the front foot as a batsman, however he seems to be going backwards constantly and its really sad to see a great batsman fail on a regular basis.

Certainly the end of Laxman's career. Footwork, that was once quick and precise, is now terrible. Laxman should retire instead of being dropped. It would be tragic if he didn't go out on his own terms.

On a side note, Gambhir should be dropped. Rahane is technically better and should get a game in Adelaide.

Laxman should come in at number 7 where he has a chance to play an innings with the same freedom without any pressures on his shoulders.

He is a batsman though, and has always been a fine top order one. If his time has come and gone then it is best to replace him and give a promising youngster i.e. Rohit a chance, as opposed to slowly slipping him down the order, in my view.

Ponting was the same, thankfully he rediscovered some form but when there was talk of him coming in at 6 I thought it was just disrespectful towards a batting master thats best days may have gone.

Despite my earlier comments in favour of Laxman (before Perth) I do think that the pressure is starting to build on him. I would keep him in the side at Adelaide but I now think that if he struggles there it might be wise to leave him out of the next Test they play (probably not until July). If he wants to this would give him the chance to retire although that is completely up to him and if he scores runs at Adelaide I have no problem with him remaining in the side.

I can only repeat what I said before the test at Perth:

"For me, Laxman just hasn't looked like scoring runs in this series, whereas Kohli looked good in patches at Sydney, but then got out (to an ordinary shot in the first innings, then somewhat unluckily in the second). You also have to consider the effect axing him would have on Kohli's confidence. It is not so long ago he was just about India's best batsman (albeit at home against the West Indies).

As pointed out, the effect of losing Sachin, Dravid, and Laxman within a matter of weeks would surely be problematic.

I must side with the majority: regardless of short-term benefits, it is surely time for Rohit Sharma to be given a chance. Unfortunately this must be at the expense of VVS (the only of the "big 3" who can reasonably be dropped).

Whether you do so now, or possibly after Perth (unless India win there, in which case wait for Adelaide) is debateable. "

With the series now gone, and in a lot of ways the pressure off, surely it's time to give a youngster a chance?

Don't like all this he's too old... let's blood the future stuff....

Because the future might never come....

Class is class.....He's held the Indian end up on many an occasion and deserves to play the last test......

Deserves the respect that is due by not making him the goat and letting him decide which way the wind is blowing after this series...when he's likely to make the decision to retire anyway!!

Give him the respect that is due to a great batsman..

Sorry. I don't believe in that. I believe in selecting your 11 which is the best for your country at this time (which may involve building for the future to an extent). At the moment Laxman is not in that 11 for India. IMO. To use a phrase often attributed to Andy Flower, you have to be "compassionately ruthless".

I think there is something wrong if selectors can't make a decision for the good of the team and the need to rebuild for the future, in a match where the series has already been lost.

I have been a great supporter of VVS, but I really don't see that it should be seen as humiliating and out of order if the selectors tell him in person that he is being dropped from this match in order to help develop the batting for the future. OK it would be humiliating if he was dropped and the first he heard about it was from the media. But that needn't happen.

I go along with the last two posts, from Mike and the Corporal.

If the selectors deal with things properly, it would only be ''humiliating'' for Laxman if others choose to make it so.

Agreed. It isn't just that VVS hasn't made runs - he has just looked totally out of sorts throughout the summer - virtually strokeless at the start of several innings but still unable to get in : unlike some he has looked to me to desperately want to battle it out , but he just hasn't been able ... and this in a country where he has previously prospered.

All the signs are that he has lost it , and no-one should be immune from being moved aside when it is in the team's interests to move on. Which it surely is : what harm can come of at least getting a look at Rohit in a Test? (Or Rahane , should India prefer to play him at the top of the order and move Dravid down a spot or two)

Great career , but I think it is over.

laxman is apparently retiring after the adelaide test.

I think Tendulkars lack of centuries over the pats year should see his place under threat too

lol

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I think Tendulkars lack of centuries over the pats year should see his place under threat too

Whilst your comment is tongue in cheek PSW, I think that Tendulkar's 100th hundred is affecting the Indian team. After he scored his 99th ton vs SA, in the run up to every game since we hear 'Will the Midget get his 100th 100'. Whilst his team'mates play it down, I'm pretty sure they aren't too happy about being asked the same question again again.

Yeah it was a joke point but I do wonder if it is affecting him personaly if not the actual team. In many ways its probably good for them that hes diverting some of the press attention but it must be a personal millstone for him now.
When you look at his record he has never had even close to this long a run without a century in tests, and when you add in other formats as well its quite astonishing. Whilst his scores havent been that bad ( averaging 40 since his last test century over a year ago) its clealry a dip from what he normaly gets ( career avergae 55) whoch cant just be put down to tough games or a regular slump. Hes had slumps in his carreer before, but still had the occassional big score in his tank.
Add into that Laxmans being not quite bad enough to drop, and Dhoni not looking worth a place in th team as a batsman keeper or captain and theres a real problem for India. But you could have said the same for Aus a few months ago, it can be turned around.

Not only Laxman should retire, but about 90 % of the team should call it a day, and leave it to the Younger, hungrier players that India must have available in such a vast population.

What is most shocking, and most unforgivable, both in Australia and England a few months ago, is the lack of heart, stomach, or will to win from the Indian players who have proved in the past their fighting qualities, as i for one remember Ajit Wadekers team in 71 and the bunch of scrappers that they were, who never gave in. Come on India, where are the players and whats more, the MEN of that calibre that seem to be so sadly lacking in a once proud team!!

I know he was unlucky witgh the decision today but its interestuing to compare Laxman with Strauss over the last two years ....

Laxman Average 48 ( above his career average) with two centuries
Strauss Average 31 ( well below his career average) with one century

Also accussed of being past it, Ricky Ponting. Same period averages 37 with two centuries.
MS Dhoini average 38, slightly above his career average.


So the two Indian players have actually been avergaing higher than they used to and higher than Ricky Ponting who apparently proved he wasnt past it, despite being past it, and all 3 higher than Andrew Strauss who noone has ever accussed of being past it.

Statistics eh

Easy to forget the first test in India where he some how got them home by marshalling the tail....

Easy to forget what guys have done for you in the past.....

as soon as they seem to hit a trough it's up yours!!

Hope he plays in the 4th test and I hope he proves everybody wrong..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Easy to forget the first test in India where he some how got them home by marshalling the tail....

Easy to forget what guys have done for you in the past.....

as soon as they seem to hit a trough it's up yours!!

Hope he plays in the 4th test and I hope he proves everybody wrong..

they didnt win the first test, they are 3-0 down

he is 38

He was a very good batsmen and has had a distinguished career. I had the fortune to see a replay of his Calcutta innings in 2001 not to long after and it was something special. However he's among the worst performing on this tour and every career must come to a close sometime

When is this 4th test on anyway, late January and the ozzie one day fans must be hungry for their nights on the lager and wham bam cricket

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Easy to forget the first test in India where he some how got them home by marshalling the tail....

Easy to forget what guys have done for you in the past.....

as soon as they seem to hit a trough it's up yours!!

Hope he plays in the 4th test and I hope he proves everybody wrong..

That was a while ago. I have forgotten nothing, he was a very fine player. However the way he has played on this tour and on the England tour suggest something in his game has gone. And I don't think he brings the same element of professionalism and commitment that (say) Ponting does, to continue justifying the selection of someone who is only rarely going to score runs. Also, Ponting is partly around still to help the youngsters. India have enough experienced players without Laxman.

A good knock in the 4th (dead and on the flattest pitch) test wouldn't do much for me. It's the right time for him to go.

Laxman will retire after the 4th test, and surely if wouldnt retire, he would get the push.....

The real pressure on laxman isnt his lack of runs or even his short blip in form. If he was in a winning team( like england till last week), or one that had several young players coming through already ( like aus ) he would be cut more slack.
He isnt showing a prolonged drop in form, or atleast no more than the rest of the side.
But theres clearly a feeling that the team has to change and move forward. Mike also makes a good point about characters. They need to bring in people who have some fight and passion, and drive to improve. From the outside indias batsmen look like a group who feel they have done the3 hard work and have nothing to prove, except Tendulkar whos developed a mental block over his last milestone.
Getting some energy in the field too is important to help the bowlers out. It must be hard to keep plugging away when you arent that good but your lazy fielders make you look worse.

to be fair he is now 38, its time for him to move on, and allow Rohit sharma a run in the side.

Tendulkars a year and half older, and at least Laxman has a century in the last 12 months ( )
They average pretty much the same in that period.

mate i think all, dravid, tendulkar,laxman should retire, but sadly none of them realise, that they are past it.

Indications are that Laxman will get the last test of the series.
He's been practicing hard it seems, even on an off day.
There were media reports that VVS is been pushed to retire by the BCCI before the last test. But it has to be believed the team management has stood behind VVS, as is to be understood from Gautam Gambhir's statements in recent days.
Anyways, I think the series is long gone, India's batting has collectively failed, a transition is just a matter of time and next generation players have to get their chances. As Kohli is showing, it takes time to get used to demands of test cricket, and even with all these experience and class India is losing big time. As Sanjay Manjrekar said, if you are losing, its better to do so with young players.
I still believe VVS has a few more special knocks left in him, but he has hit a rough patch at the very wrong time, and as part of easing the transition process, has to unfortunately, go.
Anyways there will be changes for Adelaide, Writimaan Saha will be taking the gloves in place of the banned captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni, and Virender Sehwag will be leading the side. R Ashwin or Pragyan Ojha, or possibly both should also be coming back, in place of Vinay Kumar, and possibly Ishant Sharma?

msp83 wrote:Indications are that Laxman will get the last test of the series.
He's been practicing hard it seems, even on an off day.
There were media reports that VVS is been pushed to retire by the BCCI before the last test. But it has to be believed the team management has stood behind VVS, as is to be understood from Gautam Gambhir's statements in recent days.
Anyways, I think the series is long gone, India's batting has collectively failed, a transition is just a matter of time and next generation players have to get their chances. As Kohli is showing, it takes time to get used to demands of test cricket, and even with all these experience and class India is losing big time. As Sanjay Manjrekar said, if you are losing, its better to do so with young players.
I still believe VVS has a few more special knocks left in him, but he has hit a rough patch at the very wrong time, and as part of easing the transition process, has to unfortunately, go.
Anyways there will be changes for Adelaide, Writimaan Saha will be taking the gloves in place of the banned captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni, and Virender Sehwag will be leading the side. R Ashwin or Pragyan Ojha, or possibly both should also be coming back, in place of Vinay Kumar, and possibly Ishant Sharma?

well yh india are 3-0 down in a 4 match series.....