England back row for Six Nations

Evening all! Haven't been on these boards for a while but from what I've seen the back row seems to be as debated as ever with one welcome exception. It seems that most people are finally of the (overdue) opinion that Chris Robshaw deserves his chance in the EPS. Whilst I've been a massive fan of Lewis Moody for years I'm afraid his game has been visibly diminishing for a couple of years and many were of the opinion that Robshaw deserved his shot.

Moody now gone he looks set to get his shot and looking at statistics from the last few seasons he more than deserves it. He's playing even better since moving to 7 and has an outside shot at the captaincy following Quins start to the season.

looking first at the EPS selection Croft,Wood,Robshaw look pretty nailed on for selection following good form and international experience. That leaves two more spots for others, personally I'd go with Thomas Waldrom and Ben Morgan. More likely to be Luke Narraway and Ben Morgan however given Narraway was Saxons captain (and succesfully!) under Lancaster. I've not got anything against Luke Narraway, much the contrary, I just don't feel he's improved as much as he could've in the last few years!

Morgans got a very good reputation for such a young player with big performances for Scarlets. I'll admit to having not seen much of him in action but from all reports he's an excellent ball carrier,has good hands and hits hard in the tackle. At 6ft4 and 18 1/2 stone that isn't too surprising though. In comparison to Nick Easter he will probably offer more going forward and more dynamism,but not much of a lineout option (Easter often used at the back of the line to good effect) and not the same control at the base of the scrum as Easter (a much underated quality especially with Englands scrum).

An outside bet I'd love to see included in case of injury is Alex Gray formerly of Newcastle now the Exiles. Looks like an exceptional prospect this lad,many know him as captain of a very succesful age group side for England and could have the complete package if he keeps improving!

This all said my backrow for Scotland would be 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan with Wood on the bench. If Lawes is unavailable could even look at Waldrom on the bench aswell with Croft covering second row and Attwood/Parling making up my choice second row in Lawes absence.

Also for sake of debate my money would be on one of Robshaw or Croft as captain. Personally I'd go for Croft.

Ben Morgan is 18 st +

Regards, Ben Morgan, although he has stated that he would like to play international rugby for England, surely he would be better off in the Saxons rather than England first team?

I do think that the back line will be Wood, Robshaw, Croft, with Croft proably playing in the 8 slot.

I wouldn't mind seeing Croft playing 8. In terms of height/weight he's probably the same as Parrisse.
I'd rather Robshaw played 8 though.
Regardless, I expect it will be Wood, Robshaw, Morgan.

Sorry about that Cymroglan was meant to be 18 1/2 stone, been corrected in the article now!

Majestic yes he probably would but unfortunately England aren't blessed with many 8's of his potential! Easter isn't getting younger but is still best 8 in the country in my opinion.

Waldrom offers another option but personally I'd rather see Morgan there. Other than that Gray is a great prospect but probably needs time. Narraway and Guest are other options but haven't kicked on in recent seasons and Jordan Crane is out injured.

Would be very shocked to see Croft anywhere but 6 to be honest but would like the idea of 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Croft though I can't see it happening.

I think the back row will depend alot on the Second Rows....

If we go for Robson etc as a lineout expert....then i'd like to see more power in the back row...

If we play the powerhouse Second rows...ie Garvey, Attwood etc...then you should probably play Croft for lineout ability.

You've already mentioned the importance of control at the back of the scrum.
Croft is unlikely to have kind of control at the base of the scrum if he's never played there (or rarely played there)

Haskell has all the ingredients to be an 8, but his control sometimes lets him down... We'll see what it's like when he's stops travelling the World and comes back to Wasps.


I normally prefer to have two 7's in the back row with one playing 6, rather than two 6's with one playing 7.
However, we don't have many quality 7's around.

We definitely need a replacement 8 being bedded in.
As things stand, I think it's fair to say that the flankers will be made up of Wood, Croft and probably Robshaw.
I think I'd like to see us try a couple of different combo's out with these players and see what works.
Hopefully, it will work regardless of who is chosen

I agree with Geordie Flacon. The backrow balance depends on the second row. If we go for a lightweight, athletic option then the backrow will be have to be on the bulkier side (i.e you won't see Narraway in there). Conversely, if the second rowers are real bruisers (i.e Attwood or Garvey thrown in), we could afford to have a slightly lighter-weight backrow (Maybe 6.Croft 7.Wood 8.Robshaw).

Eitherway, I think the best option is: 6.Robshaw 7.Wood 8. Morgan, with Croft on the bench as a real impact threat.

bluestonevedder wrote:I agree with Geordie Flacon. The backrow balance depends on the second row. If we go for a lightweight, athletic option then the backrow will be have to be on the bulkier side (i.e you won't see Narraway in there). Conversely, if the second rowers are real bruisers (i.e Attwood or Garvey thrown in), we could afford to have a slightly lighter-weight backrow (Maybe 6.Croft 7.Wood 8.Robshaw).

Eitherway, I think the best option is: 6.Robshaw 7.Wood 8. Morgan, with Croft on the bench as a real impact threat.

Yeah...going against what i just said above...thats the back row i'd like to see. It offers everything...but i would also go with a SR of Palmer and Attwood / Garvey....

GeordieFalcon wrote:i would also go with a SR of Palmer and Attwood / Garvey....

Absolutely. Palmer for his athleticism and Attwood/Garvey for their bruiser and grunt work.

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i would also go with a SR of Palmer and Attwood / Garvey....

Absolutely. Palmer for his athleticism and Attwood/Garvey for their bruiser and grunt work.

... And a strong and highly mobile front row of Corbisiero, Hartley and Cole, it works for me!

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Parling
6.Croft (c)
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

16.Gray
17.PDJ
18.Garvey
19.Wood

Based on Ackford and greenwood's selection policy shoudln't England go for Teague, Skinner and Richards again?

did anyone see that Ackford suggested Easter to start in the second row....

Graham Rowntree described Morgan as 'a good lineout forward', considering his height (about the same as Croft) he could be an option in that area.

But Cumbrian if he is over 18 stone he's going to be a real bugger to get up in the lineout quickly. Croft is a stone and a half maybe 2 stone lighter and Parling would probably be a stone lighter than that as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:But Cumbrian if he is over 18 stone he's going to be a real bugger to get up in the lineout quickly. Croft is a stone and a half maybe 2 stone lighter and Parling would probably be a stone lighter than that as well.

True, but Easter has been used quite a lot in the lineout by England, there can't be that much between him and Morgan can there? One sec *google search!* Easter is 18 and half stone too according to his England profile. I'd suggest Morgan has more athleticism out of the two of them. Saying that, I'm not suggesting Morgan should be the 'go to' man, more a useful option.

I didn't get to see the game, but how did Guest play when he came off the bench for Quins on Friday?

The match details show he came on for Wallace at openside (I'm guessing he actually played blindside and Robshaw moved to open?) and though only on the pitch for 29mins made more tackles than any other Quins player (yes, even more than Robshaw in 80mins).

Surely Wood offers lineout options also...

For me 6 is between Croft and Wood. Yes I am biaised, but Croft has been exceptional since his return to the East Midlands, while Wood has been selected at 7 by Saints in the main.

Robshaw shoul dbe given a go at 7. I have doubts about his abilities against the very best - fell he is Good/V good at many things but not exceptional at any one thing. However he deserves his chance and I hope I am wrong.

Number 8 should be someone who plays there day in, day out. I would have selected Easter - just to see us through this period where we are trying to bed in a lot of young and inexperienced players. If a a younger player was absolutely demanding selection with their performances then I would select them, but they are not. However Easter is ruled out by Lancaster - so I am unsure who to pick out of Narraway/Guest/Morgan et al.

I have a feeling that Lancaster will actually go 6 Croft, 7 Wood, 8 Robshaw.

I have a feeling that Lancaster will actually go 6 Croft, 7 Wood, 8 Robshaw

LondonTiger...

The only problem i would have with that lineup is that Robshaw (despite a few very good games at 8) is not a recognised 8.
But all in all...it has everything...pace, breakdown ability, ball carrying - both in tight and out wide...lineout ability...etc

There are some definite positives GF, but I hate seeing players out of position in the international side.

Agreed....mate, but then big Lawrence was playing all over the back row before he became a nailed on 8 ...and not a bad one at that...

Hate players being picked out of position. Not fair on the player. Olly Barkley was a victim of this approach a number of times, as was Shane Geraghty.

how did Guest play when he came off the bench for Quins on Friday?

He didn't really have chance to do much. He came on and put a shift in but in a team going backwards he didn't stand much chance. Saints were all over Quins and up front especially Quins were soundly beaten. Might have been different had Clegg got a penalty or two more as Quins seemed to lack confidence in the second half and Saints weren't so fussed with conceding penalties and so tried their luck.

From the Telegraph today

England interim head coach Stuart Lancaster is understood to be impressed by the 22 year-old’s (Callum Clarke!)form this season and sees him as a potential replacement for James Haskell, who has ruled himself out of selection by his move to Japanese side Ricoh Black Rams and the Highlanders in the Super 15.
Lancaster is set to announce his 32-man elite player squad on Wednesday and Clark is under serious consideration for one of the six back-row places up for grabs, following the international retirement of former captain Lewis Moody.
Tom Wood, one of the leading candidates for the captaincy, Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw and the Scarlets No 8 Ben Morgan, are certain of their places, with Clark thought to be facing competition from club team-mate Phil Dowson and Leicester No 8 Thomas Waldrom for the two remaining places.

Not many punters had him on their radar

Watched him play the daily mail cup a few years ago, fantastic player but I didn't think he'd get the call up.
If he does over Dowson I think he'll top himself.

Interesting....thats not one i would have seen either....

I hope Lancaster realises its the FULL ENGLAND TEAM...not the Saxons development team...

flankertye wrote:Watched him play the daily mail cup a few years ago, fantastic player but I didn't think he'd get the call up.
If he does over Dowson I think he'll top himself.

Yes I have a lot of respect for Dowson who must be one of the unluckiest players around but age is against him if we are looking towards the next World Cup, however, I wouldn't be upset if he got the nod. Lancaster would know him as well as most.

I think Lancaster HAS to play Robshaw somewhere. He's been on such good form wherever he is selected for Quins, so I think it would be a crime not to have him in the side somewhere. Wood has also been playing well and Croft is also on good form. I hate seeing players selected out of position as well, but I agree we might see

6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Robshaw

I would love to see

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

...but then I doubt it will happen...

England have Scotland first up. Scotland will provide one of England's sternest tests in the backrow. The last 2 matches England have won, but they have been close games with England coming out 2nd best at the breakdown.

Scotland's backrow will most likely be :

6. Kelly Brown
7. John Barclay
8. Dave Denton

Kelly plys his trade for the Sarries and from what I have heard from Sarries fans is very good blind side who makes big tackles and grinds the hard yards, he does the same for Scotland and has never let anyone down when playing for Scotland.

Barclay is a specialist fetcher who has caused England all sorts of problems in the past and Dave Denton is a bruising physical number 8.

England's biggest problem for the past few seasons is a backrow of 3 players who compliment each others style of play.

6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Narraway

would be my England backrow unit. Croft is a good tackler, carries well and leads by example. A contender for England captain IMO. Wood although not normally used as a 7 is a menace at the breakdown, he is good at scrapping for the ball on the deck and would win turnover ball. Narraway a quicker and more elusive number 8 who would be a better link man / support runner for the English backs, in comparrison to Easter who is a mule of a man with reasonably soft hands but I feel can be a little behind the pace of the game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Parling
6.Croft (c)
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

16.Gray
17.PDJ
18.Garvey
19.Wood

Pretty much where I come out as well. Croft was very good against Wasps and did enough to convince me he should continue to play 6 for England. I wouldn't pick him as my captain though - I remain undecided about that but it wouldn't be Croft. I'd start Wood at 7 ahead of Robshaw.

would be my England backrow unit. Croft is a good tackler, carries well and leads by example. A contender for England captain IMO. Wood although not normally used as a 7 is a menace at the breakdown, he is good at scrapping for the ball on the deck and would win turnover ball. Narraway a quicker and more elusive number 8 who would be a better link man / support runner for the English backs, in comparrison to Easter who is a mule of a man with reasonably soft hands but I feel can be a little behind the pace of the game.

The problem is i dont see Croft in that light...
He's a good carrier in open play.....but not in the tight where for me a 6 should be strong. He is an excellent lineout operator...and whilst his breakdown is improving....i dont think it is where an international 6 should be.
Now as Sam has informed me on many an occasion the Tigers use their 6 in a slightly different way...as a big disruptor to the opposition backs...and with his spees...Croft is excellent at this...but is this the style that England need at the moment...or rather a 6 who will make the yards and get stuck in at the breakdown....

formerly known as Sam wrote:1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Parling
6.Croft (c)
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

16.Gray
17.PDJ
18.Garvey
19.Wood

I would swap Wood for Robshaw but otherwise that would by my forwards for the Scotland game as well (with Robshaw on the bench). Once Lawes is fit then he would come in at 4 with Attwood and Garvey fighting for the bench spot. Thought Parling had a good game at the weekend, receiving the ball at first receiver, making a couple of yards and recycling the ball quickly. Added to his general all round play (you can tell he started as a 6) he really continued to look the part to me, playing as he did before his injury. Also thought Cole had a cracking game, would have been my MoM. I wonder if someone (Rowntree springs to mind) laid it out to him before the game that he needed to do more in the loose. Happy to see Croft in form as well.

I think that Wood's best position is actually 7. I know he is bigger than most top class opensides (only 2" taller than McCaw though) but has good speed for a big man and can be a real pain in the ass at the breakdown. The Clark selection is a bit left field. More of what I would class a traditional blindside, although he does carry well and has good hands. He can play in the second row if required and kept Dowson out of the Saints first XV for a few games earlier in the season. Thought he was more one for the future but age is on his side compared to Dowson.

Easter, it is widely rumoured will be dropped from the EPS. Personally I think he is indeed playing well at the moment and would help in the Scotland game with a relatively inexperienced side. Still if that's the way Lancaster goes fair play to him, but he'd better have a plan to replace Easter with a ball carrier or two.

My choice for the Scotland game, bearing in mind the likely weather conditions and we're playing at Murrayfield against a destructive Scotland team would be:

6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Morgan

I would have Easter, but as he's probably out I think this is the best start. 19. Croft, to add a but of dynamism if the game goes down that road, which I don't think it will for one minute. In the SR I would have Palmer and Attwood, with either Garvey or Parling on the bench. It really depends on how Attwood goes at training and in the game situation. Parling I think is excellent, but Palmer edges it for experience in what will be a difficult first game.

Morgan I have seen a bit of, needs to keep adding to his game I think, but whilst there's a bit of pressure off let's expose him at the highest level and see how he goes. Don't forget Wood did very well when he came straight into the side last 6N. Robshaw also provides a bit of grunt and Wood is excellent around the field. As above, I don't really like players being moved around positionally at international level. Plus I think it would be lunacy to play Robshaw out of position for his first proper international!

Cheers for the info Sam.

I'm surprised that Lancaster is rumoured to be circling Calum Clark. I thought he did pretty well last season, but hasn't been as good this season. Saints have often looked better with Dowson replacing him. Quite aside from that, I don't think we need another natural blindside amongst the other rumoured backrow selection, I'd far rather see an openside specialist like Wallace, Saull, Gibson or Seymour completing the backrow options. That Clark has been out since mid November with a dislocated thumb would also make him a very big call.

Apology's all. Just read the news on Cueto and Easter being left out and have re written the article as such!

With this in mind I'd expect Morgan to start at 8 with Croft and Robshaw.

Interesting to see Calum Clark in contention! Saw a bit of him when he was at Leeds academy as I had a friend who played alongside,looked an outstanding prospect! Really good over the ball and in a similar mould to Robshaw.

Surprised that Andy Saul has faded from contention for the 7 shirt. I've always been very impressed whenever seeing him play. Proper 7 aswell! Strong contending for the ball and excellent ground work. Also a very good ball carrier and link man!

For sake of debate I'd go with the following for Scotland:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Parling
6.Croft (c)
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

Remember Palmer is unavailable to play due to the RFU's overseas policy!

king_carlos wrote:Remember Palmer is unavailable to play due to the RFU's overseas policy!

That's not definite by any means. Based only on what people on here have stated but it seems that either

Palmer signed his current contract with Stade Francais before the RFU decree on overseas based players
or
They are going to class him as a special case and bring him in anyway.

Either way all reports are stating he will be in the squad for the Scotland game

Yeah i think with Deacon , Lawes etc out...Palmer will absolutely be made a special case and brought in.

A little bit of experience for either garvey / Attwood or Parling to pair with...

Surprissed that Narraway isnt getting more of a mention.
Hes the only one who is both and 8 and has any international experience. Hes right in the prime target age group for Lancasters vision and he was Lancasters Saxons capatin last year. He may not be the darling of the internet currently but I expect him to be the one whos selected, with Robshaw offering the cover in the matchday side and Morgan the other specialist in the squad.
We know he isnt going to select Easter, but its hard to select Guest for the senior side when yoiur reject is keeping him out of the club side. Theres alwways a chance he'd go with Waldrom but that would go against everything Lancasters suppossed to stand for. Dowson is probably too old for him. I really dont see Croft covering 8 , that would be very leftfield.


My guess would be 2 + 1 on the bench of Robshaw/Croft/Wood with Narraway at 8.


Im pretty sure Palmer signed his contract before the decree, the Morgan issue (he signed his after) suggests that its not being taken that seriously anyway ( and was never a rule, simply a warning like the one Wales gave a couple of years ago)

king_carlos wrote:Surprised that Andy Saul has faded from contention for the 7 shirt. I've always been very impressed whenever seeing him play. Proper 7 aswell! Strong contending for the ball and excellent ground work. Also a very good ball carrier and link man!

I think Saull actually has a chance at being an outside contender for one of the backrow spots in the squad. As you said, he's a proper, out-and-out 7 which England do need (although Robshaw and Wood are extremely good at this too). His form dropped off for a long period of time but from what I've seen of him recently, he's really rediscovered it. He was fantastic for Sarries against Quins on the 27th, really good over the ball and stole a lot.

I guess the other proper 7s to choose from are Wallace, Kvesic, Seymour, Mercer and Gibson, as I assume Wood and Robshaw are absolute certainties.

I guess the other proper 7s to choose from are Wallace, Kvesic, Seymour, Mercer and Gibson, as I assume Wood and Robshaw are absolute certainties

Kvesic has been playing 8 and I think that's him reverting to the position he played as an age group player (a Worcester fan to confirm?). He's looked pretty good there so far and would form a mean Saxons backrow with Gibson and Mercer (might lack a natural blindside but the workrate of all three would compensate).

I hope Kvesic moves back to playing oepnside. I prefer him there rather than 8, where I feel he is undersized, especially on the international scene. I understand that Jake Abbott has been playing really well at 7, and this might be part of the reason Kvesic's is not getting game time there...?

Agree regarding the Saxons' backrow. Gibson is playing incredibly well for such a young lad. Once he bulks out a bit more he could see himself rapidly move up to the EPS I think. Mercer is a tenacious player, and I like his style.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Surprissed that Narraway isnt getting more of a mention.

From what I've seen of him he's a had a pretty underwhelming season so far. Certainly nothing approaching what a player who hopes to push for the national shirt should be producing. In general he's failed to push on these last couple of years in my opinion.

Peter has a good point; given the lack of experience at 8 and some even suggesting players being moved out of position to start there, Narraway would seem an excellent choice. He does have some international experience and as stated is about the right age etc...

My only problem with Narraway is that he's a bit too similar to Tom Croft in some of his play, without being quite as good as him at it. He likes to be an out wide man and link with the backs which is great, what he doesn't provide though is much go forward. He's a bit underweight for an international 8, and whilst i'd like to see him play I think you'd need a few real carriers in the side to replace Easter and accomodate Narraway. Plus I don't think you could get away with playing him and Tom Croft together.

The Times is reporting that backrow will include:

Croft
Robshaw
Wood
Callum Clark
Morgan

Seems a good mix with Clark a bit left field but then Lancaster knows him well.

Chjw131 wrote:Peter has a good point; given the lack of experience at 8 and some even suggesting players being moved out of position to start there, Narraway would seem an excellent choice. He does have some international experience and as stated is about the right age etc...

My only problem with Narraway is that he's a bit too similar to Tom Croft in some of his play, without being quite as good as him at it. He likes to be an out wide man and link with the backs which is great, what he doesn't provide though is much go forward. He's a bit underweight for an international 8, and whilst i'd like to see him play I think you'd need a few real carriers in the side to replace Easter and accomodate Narraway. Plus I don't think you could get away with playing him and Tom Croft together.

I agree that it would leave a lack of trundle, but then Johnosn was always slated for picking the tanks so it seems you cant win.
4 years ago the England backrow of the future was suppossed to be Narrarway, Haskell and Rees. Hardly that different to say Robshaw Wood Narraway in terms of balance and physicality. For all hes a big chap Haskell isnt really a hard yards runner.
The "modern forwards" argument hasnt really won me over Ill say that though, Johnson wanted to go without Easter when he first took over and have a fully mobile pack but it didnt work out leading him to not only go back to him but also recall Shaw. I was in favour of sticking by Easter till a suitable replacment who could do that role put their hand up. It may be that Lancaster thinks Morgans ready to be thrown straight in ( very risky) or that hes going for the mobile lightweight back row ( also risky )
Lets wait and see.

BUt Peter...Morgan is 18.5 stone...so hardly lightweight....add in Wood and Robshaw...and thats a back row i would happily go with.

I second your view on the "modern forwards" idea mind. I want to see some big powerhouses in there.....players like Simon Shaw...who made a visible difference in the power of the pack.

Is Garvey a player like that? Possibly.

Its also a reason im not a fan of Croft at 6

GeordieFalcon wrote:BUt Peter...Morgan is 18.5 stone...so hardly lightweight....add in Wood and Robshaw...and thats a back row i would happily go with.

I second your view on the "modern forwards" idea mind. I want to see some big powerhouses in there.....players like Simon Shaw...who made a visible difference in the power of the pack.

Hence my argument that he has a choice between picthing in a raw kid who has barely met anyone in the squad or going with a mobile backrow using Robshaw as the gruntman.

But Morgan appears ( i have only seen clips) to be fairly mobile for a guy his size...and playing with Wood and Robshaw would give you a real balance of size / power, pace, ball carrying and breakdown excellence...