England back row for Six Nations

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Evening all! Haven't been on these boards for a while but from what I've seen the back row seems to be as debated as ever with one welcome exception. It seems that most people are finally of the (overdue) opinion that Chris Robshaw deserves his chance in the EPS. Whilst I've been a massive fan of Lewis Moody for years I'm afraid his game has been visibly diminishing for a couple of years and many were of the opinion that Robshaw deserved his shot.

Moody now gone he looks set to get his shot and looking at statistics from the last few seasons he more than deserves it. He's playing even better since moving to 7 and has an outside shot at the captaincy following Quins start to the season.

looking first at the EPS selection Croft,Wood,Robshaw look pretty nailed on for selection following good form and international experience. That leaves two more spots for others, personally I'd go with Thomas Waldrom and Ben Morgan. More likely to be Luke Narraway and Ben Morgan however given Narraway was Saxons captain (and succesfully!) under Lancaster. I've not got anything against Luke Narraway, much the contrary, I just don't feel he's improved as much as he could've in the last few years!

Morgans got a very good reputation for such a young player with big performances for Scarlets. I'll admit to having not seen much of him in action but from all reports he's an excellent ball carrier,has good hands and hits hard in the tackle. At 6ft4 and 18 1/2 stone that isn't too surprising though. In comparison to Nick Easter he will probably offer more going forward and more dynamism,but not much of a lineout option (Easter often used at the back of the line to good effect) and not the same control at the base of the scrum as Easter (a much underated quality especially with Englands scrum).

An outside bet I'd love to see included in case of injury is Alex Gray formerly of Newcastle now the Exiles. Looks like an exceptional prospect this lad,many know him as captain of a very succesful age group side for England and could have the complete package if he keeps improving!

This all said my backrow for Scotland would be 6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan with Wood on the bench. If Lawes is unavailable could even look at Waldrom on the bench aswell with Croft covering second row and Attwood/Parling making up my choice second row in Lawes absence.

Also for sake of debate my money would be on one of Robshaw or Croft as captain. Personally I'd go for Croft.

Personally I want England to select Croft, and in order to do this I don't think Narraway is a reasonable option to play at 8. Looking at when Croft has played his best rugby (Tigers & Lions) he plays with a bigger carrying number 8 (Crane/Waldrom & Heaslip). Also both Croft & Narraway both like to fan out wide with the backs. I would also agree that Narraway hasn't really kicked on and is currently not international standard.

6 Croft
8 Morgan
7 Wood
19 Robshaw

For me that backrow has a good balance, which is critical - the players selected have to cover all the bases between them. There may be no out and out traditional fetcher type 7 but there isn't an English player currently deserving of selection, although from what I've seen Wallace and Saull are not too far away. I wouldn't be too upset to see Robshaw start but he is a decent bench option (covers all 3 backrow positions) and with Croft (and to a much lesser extent Wood) playing then there is some experience in there.

I agree entirely on the traditional concept of the 'modern forwards' idea. It's undoubtedly important for forwards to have good ball playing skills and an awareness of space these days, but that needs to be allied to the traditional power factor.

Peter, I agree that a backrow of 6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Narraway would indeed work pretty well, as both Robshaw and Wood can be effective carriers. I just don't feel he works at all well with Croft. Which means you'd need Croft on the bench and another player (say Robshaw) to cover 8 when he is brought on. I saw in the Sunday Times that Dayglo was tipping Wood as an 8...?!

Interesting that, if the Times article is true, he's only gone for one specialist 8 in Morgan. It would seem to my mind that Morgan will be starting straight away as I don't think he'd want to play Robshaw out of position for his first cap.

I'm a massive fan of Croft, but there is no doubting that he is an unorthodox 6 and to get the best out of him you've got to get the back 5 balance right. As has been pointed out, his 'carrying' is excellent when it's as a support runner off someone's shoulder in an wide channel: there are few 6's who do this better! But what he doesn't do is create forward momentum against a defensive line that is more or less set. This is a traditional responsibility of your 6, and if he ain't gonna do it then someone else needs to! I'm not familiar with this Morgan chap - does he make hard yards round the fringes? Or is he another one of these fast showboat 8's that everyone gets excited about? If he's the former then - along with Robshaw at 7 who can also make a hard yard - he could complement Croft and allow him to do the kinds of things that have, at times, taken his name to the world stage.

Someone mentioned earlier that Calum Clark is on Lancaster's radar? I can well believe it as a former Leeds man and a well watched up and coming talent not so long ago. But, to be honest, I've slightly lost track of his progress since he went to Saints. From the games I've seen in recent seasons he hasn't really been involved? Is he still at Saints? And if so, can any Saints fans shed light on this? Injuries? Poor form? Where has this youn tyro been?!

Evening all!

So summing up peoples thoughts at this stage we're looking at Wood,Croft and Robshaw making up the 6,7 and the bench spot with Morgan or Narraway at Number 8.

Looking at that for me it's a case of Robshaw at 7 then either 6.Croft and 8.Morgan or 6.Wood with 8.Narraway. Reasoning behind this is the same as B91212. If we play Croft at 6 he needs a heavier ball carrying 8 but if it's Narraway at 8 we need Wood as he gets more groundwork done and spends less time out wide.

As said in my original article I'd love to see Alex Gray take that second 8 spot alongside Morgan as I think he's playing just aswell as Narraway and has more potential in the long run.

That said picking Morgan and Gray would go against the recent advice of Dallagio who knows just a little about back row play!

king_carlos wrote:That said picking Morgan and Gray would go against the recent advice of Dallagio who knows just a little about back row play!

Agree he does know more but Dallagio speaks some serious dribble. I'm surprised he's not talking up the current young number 8 at Wasps, Jones for the EPS. He's the most biased club man in the media by a mile. Never mentioned Haskell during his time in France but as soon as he agrees to return to Wasps for the 2012/2013 season he pipes up that he has the potential to be the best number 8 in the world. Great player but along with Greenwood so glad he isn't a selector.

I hope Narraway isn't selected, he isn't presently playing at his best and ultimately I don't think he is of international class.

B91212

Yes he does speak some tosh regarding Wasps players but with Haskell unavailable,Rees injured and Worsley retired there is credibility to his words regarding Morgan. Surprised he wasn't talking up the likes of Daly,Varndell etc because there's definitely talent in that backline!

On the Wasps subject I would like to see Rob Webber in the squad as second hooker behind Hartley. Mears isn't getting younger (but seems to be getting smaller!) and Thompson retired there is room for some younger hookers.

hawalsh

I agree myself as I don't think he's kicked on in recent seasons but as captain and first choice 8 in Lancasters Saxons side he's definitely in the running. As I've stated a couple of times Alex Gray would be my second choice or if we want experience Thomas Waldrom until Jordan Crane is back from injury.

Purely for stoking the fire this would be my full pack for Scotland:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Palmer
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

16.Webber 17. Stevens 18.Parling 19.Wood

Corbisiero I think did well when he first came in to the squad, but failed to make much of an impact at the WC and has been caned at Irish so far this season. I don't think he started the last match?

I'd keep him in the EPS, but my starter for a tough Scotland pack would be Nick Wood. Consistently excellent scrummager and carries around the park; I know it's more inexperience but without Sheridan I think we need a good scrummer at LH.

I agree in part with you about Gray, looked excellent at U20's, but to my knowledge hasn't started for Irish until last weekend? I think he needs a few more starts for Irish and a bit more bulk to be playing 8 internationally.

Webber has been on the England radar for a while, good carrying at the weekend against Leicester but absolutely woeful in the line-out, couldn't hit a Cow's ass with a banjo. I know one game doesn't mean a lot, but he looked worried about it himself which is never good. Who else is there though? I'd have Chuter just for this 6N as we're going to need some experience out there.

How old is Nick Wood now....feels like hes been around for years....and should have had plenty of caps....he was always better than Sheridan in my eyes...just didnt have teds size.

I'd stick with the front row of Corbs, Hartley and Cole...they are getting some experience in there...and are still very young as front rows go.

I think its interesting how the idea of Croft v Wood is down to personal preferance...

I'd keep him in the EPS, but my starter for a tough Scotland pack would be Nick Wood. Consistently excellent scrummager and carries around the park; I know it's more inexperience but without Sheridan I think we need a good scrummer at LH.

I'd prefer Mullan to Wood. Mullan stopped Murray when Worcester took on Newcastle and is a great carrier of the ball as well as a great scrummager. Not the biggest bloke going but he is effective. Still young as well.

Webber did have a truely dire game against Leicester, not sure that calling up Chuter is likely to be that great an idea though. He is now 35 and is ability in the loose and the scrum is still good but not what it was and probably not international level anymore. A reliable option for the lineout but Gray at Quins would be a better bet if Webber is not up to scratch. I'm not one for dismissing experience but when age is linked to diminishin performance as it is in this case we do need to start developing replacements.

Nick Wood is 28, so plenty of distance left in him to 2015 I would say. He'd be a good solid choice, perhaps until Marler can improve his scrummaging and nick the starting shirt from him?!

Croft v Wood I would say comes down to style of play, and perhaps that is some peoples personal choice. The relative weighting that needs to be done elsewhere in the pack is the problem with Croft. I'd have him starting, but with a weightier back row and SR to make up for it. For the Scotland game though, it isn't going to be a sunny display of rugby prowess, and that's why I wouldn't have him starting in that game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I'd keep him in the EPS, but my starter for a tough Scotland pack would be Nick Wood. Consistently excellent scrummager and carries around the park; I know it's more inexperience but without Sheridan I think we need a good scrummer at LH.

I'd prefer Mullan to Wood. Mullan stopped Murray when Worcester took on Newcastle and is a great carrier of the ball as well as a great scrummager. Not the biggest bloke going but he is effective. Still young as well.

Webber did have a truely dire game against Leicester, not sure that calling up Chuter is likely to be that great an idea though. He is now 35 and is ability in the loose and the scrum is still good but not what it was and probably not international level anymore. A reliable option for the lineout but Gray at Quins would be a better bet if Webber is not up to scratch. I'm not one for dismissing experience but when age is linked to diminishin performance as it is in this case we do need to start developing replacements.

I agree about Mullan, he is another one who's been on England's radar for a while and had an excellent game against Glaws recently. He'd certainly be up there as a strong contender.

I see your point about Chuter, but the reason I went for him in the squad/on the bench is not primarily for his playing attributes but more as a sort of hairy wet-nurse... Particularly in the first few games I think there will be times when the young newbys will be looking about for a bit of help and Chuter can provide the experience and assistance they'll need. As you say his throwing and carrying are reasonable, and as a replacement he may only be playing 20 - 25 minutes or so.

Gray I think will make the squad, he's mobile and has thrown well from what i've seen but for me has yet to make a real strong impact on a game. Not really much hard carrying (unlike Thompson or Hartley) and for me lack a little bit of physical presence at the moment. It's a problem position at this point in time I would say, but with lots of potential. I'd like to see either Gray or George in the Saxons squad.

Chjw131 wrote:Nick Wood is 28, so plenty of distance left in him to 2015 I would say. He'd be a good solid choice, perhaps until Marler can improve his scrummaging and nick the starting shirt from him?!

Croft v Wood I would say comes down to style of play, and perhaps that is some peoples personal choice. The relative weighting that needs to be done elsewhere in the pack is the problem with Croft. I'd have him starting, but with a weightier back row and SR to make up for it. For the Scotland game though, it isn't going to be a sunny display of rugby prowess, and that's why I wouldn't have him starting in that game.

Thats why im a Wood fan, as i think we need to be competing more at the breakdown...rather than haveing Croft sitting out side...espeically against the Scots in the opeing game...they'll be fired up.

Thanks Chjw131. I now have the image of George Chuter breast feeding Gray. Kill it, kill it with fire.

Surprised so many people or shelving Corbisiero but I guess a poor WC and sitting on the Exiles bench is bound to do that! Nick Wood is a solid scrummager but doesn't offer much around the park from what I know of him. Christ that sentence is giving me Tim Payne flashbacks!

I agree completely that Croft needs a bigger 8 and SR to work to his full potential. That's why I'd have Morgan at 8 and Attwood (Lawes when fit) starting with Parling on the bench. Just feel we can't afford not to pick a player of Crofts quality.

So squad just out people can find the full one online but looking at the forwards for this thread:
Full squad link (BBC) - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16491793.stm

Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Scarlets), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Matt Stevens (Saracens), Rob Webber (London Wasps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Temporary promotions from Saxons as injury cover are Dave Attwood and Geoff Parling who many expected to make the EPS.

Interesting squad with a few surprises. People's rumours re Callum Clark were spot on with him getting a first call up following an impressive first half of the season. Also Phil Dowson's in their who many thought may be overlooked.

Less expected names are among Mouritz Botha who I don't think anyone mentioned in the build up but was very impressive last season. Also David Wilson and Louis Deacon most of us were expecting to miss out but have made it in.

Rob Webber and Lee Mears claim the much talked about 2nd and 3rd hooker berths. I expect Mears was more of a case of wanting some continuation and experience in there with Thompson retired. Also Marler's in there so speculation over Nick Wood (Saxons) is over.

Doesn't change the pack I would've have picked for Scotland game but second row would need to be rethought when Deacon and Lawes are fit again. Probably Palmer and Lawes starting with Deacon on the bench.

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/157462.html


Heres Rowntrees take on the situation.
Its pretty clear he sees Wood as the number one option for now, but that depends on his foot. Aside form that they are looking at Robshaw, Croft or Downason to cover the position.
But long term they want a proper 7, and the guy in the frame for that is Saull with comeptition form Kvesic

If Wood is available, the starting backrow should be:

6.Robshaw 7.Wood 8.Morgan

If he's unavailable, I would replace Wood with Croft and switch Robshaw.

6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan

Blue, that seems to be what Rowntrees comments suggest is the case.

If woods fit then croft on the bench, if hes not doweson on the bench.

It give a balanced backrow with cover for every position in either case. But still lacks a fetcher, something England havent really had since Back.


Its a massive gamble going with such an ineperienced backrow, especially as the 3 starters would never have played with any of the others ant any level ( or would robshaw and Wood have played in the saxons together?)

Yeh, England's lack of fetcher is a problem, but both Wood and Robshaw have proved reasonably good 7s for their clubs.

Regarding the back row experience, I think Wood and Croft both have exceptional leadership skills,and Croft especially has tons of experience, so this would hopefully balance out the back row.

oops, sorry Pete, just saw the other part of your post! Not too sure whether Wood and Robshaw would have played together in the Saxons. Sure Robshaw has a lot of experience there, but Wood only played twice for them I believe, and may have risen through the ranks without having ever played with him.

bluestonevedder wrote:If Wood is available, the starting backrow should be:

6.Robshaw 7.Wood 8.Morgan

If he's unavailable, I would replace Wood with Croft and switch Robshaw.

6.Croft 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan

I'd prefer to see Dowson start at 8 against Scotland, particularly if Wood is injured. I think the breakdown battle will be key in that game and Dowson will deliver more in that area. As the first game of the tournament with a number of new faces and a new flank pairing working out their balance of involvement for each phase, I also think his extra experience and leadership will invaluable.

I'd look to start Morgan against Italy where I think the carrying dimension he brings will see greater return, the flank pairing would have some game experience under their belt and where we should have a number of key injured players (& experience) back.