Will Lewis's win over Vitali raise his ATG status.

First topic message reminder :

Lennox Lewis is an contentious issue with fans and critics alike. I have Lewis above Holmes in an all time heavyweight list but I know many will argue against that. Some experts don't even have Lewis in the top ten which I find dubious to say the least, but one fight might in future propel Lewis higher and thats his win over Vitali.

Now I know the fight ended controversially but he still won. Vitali can only complain about the finale to the fight but I had Lewis winning by a couple of rounds before the stoppage. People slate Vitali based on the names on his record and the state of the division that he has ruled for years now but in time I believe we will look back and rightfully recognise one of the most dominant heavyweight champions ever. So where do we rank Lewis's win over him???

Lets face it NOBODY has troubled Vitali in the ring since that fight. It was close, back and forth, but when have we ever said that about a Vitali fight since? So my question is if that win for Lewis will raise his profile, should it, and how do you rate it??

What was controversial about the ending?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:What was controversial about the ending?

change that to it was not a convincing win. Cutting your opponents eye brow and then having the ref stop the fight even though the fighter was still capable of continuing is hardly a glamerous win.

Vitali was in no condition to continue, he was protesting that he was means nothing, it's a fully legitimate win whichever way you want to spin it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Vitali was in no condition to continue, he was protesting that he was means nothing, it's a fully legitimate win whichever way you want to spin it.

No condition? I posted a link to the 6th and last round. vitali looked fine and was the busier fighter. Nothing to suggest at that point in the fight that he couldn't continue.

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:What was controversial about the ending?

change that to it was not a convincing win. Cutting your opponents eye brow and then having the ref stop the fight even though the fighter was still capable of continuing is hardly a glamerous win.

The cut was that bad they stuffed gauze into it.

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Vitali was in no condition to continue, he was protesting that he was means nothing, it's a fully legitimate win whichever way you want to spin it.

No condition? I posted a link to the 6th and last round. vitali looked fine and was the busier fighter. Nothing to suggest at that point in the fight that he couldn't continue.

Think i'll take the opinion of a ringside physician over yours any day of the week if i'm honest.

lovely_london wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlli6mvsOGU&feature=related

Go to 1 30 for the 6th round.

The last round was very close and lewis landed 2 good upper cuts but vitali landed some very good jabs and right hands. No way can anyone say based on that round that Vitali was gassing and would have been knocked out. Lewis actually looked tired for the majority of the round.

My point is that you can't use this fight to enhance lewis record because he was losing and it was a controversial ending.

Guess we're knackered, then.

After all, that means Corbett was never champ, since Sullivan claimed he was drugged; Fitz was never champ, because Corbett had knocked him down and claimed it had been a long count; Hart was never champ, because Jeffries chose him and Root to fight to be his successor; Willard was never champ because Johnson claimed for many a year that he had dived; Dempsey was never champ because Willard claimed he had loaded gloves; Tunney was never champ because Benny Leonard and a few others reckoned Dempsey threw the first fight; Schmeling was never champ because Sharkey's low blow was borderline; Sharkey was never champ because Schmeling was shafted in the return; Carnera was never champ because his uppercut which felled Sharkey missed by a foot; Braddock was never champ because Baer clowned away the title; Louis was never champ because he wasn't even the legitimate contender, Braddock having signed to fight Schmeling; Marciano was never champ because Walcott was well up on the cards; Patterson was never champ because D'Amato froze out Liston and Williams; Ali was never champ because Liston dived; Frazier was never champ because Ali didn't lose the title on the ring.

ETC., ETC.,

My my, you're going to be a busy little historian re writing those record books, aren't you?

Vitali Klitschko was out on his feet, his face was ripped to shreds and on the verge of being knocked out...How can anyone write off a GREAT Lewis win.

He had more than one cut as well...I love Klitschko and his fans logic "if your winning on points when the fight is stopped then you win the fight".

Hey I guess Klitschko's win over Hide is not legitimate as Hide was winning the fight before being stopped.

The genius of PBF wrote:Vitali Klitschko was out on his feet, his face was ripped to shreds and on the verge of being knocked out...How can anyone write off a GREAT Lewis win.

He had more than one cut as well...I love Klitschko and his fans logic "if your winning on points when the fight is stopped then you win the fight".

Hey I guess Klitschko's win over Hide is not legitimate as Hide was winning the fight before being stopped.

clearly a knock out is different to cuts....

And did you watch the video? if you did you would see vitali was not out on his feet.

lovely_london wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:Vitali Klitschko was out on his feet, his face was ripped to shreds and on the verge of being knocked out...How can anyone write off a GREAT Lewis win.

He had more than one cut as well...I love Klitschko and his fans logic "if your winning on points when the fight is stopped then you win the fight".

Hey I guess Klitschko's win over Hide is not legitimate as Hide was winning the fight before being stopped.

clearly a knock out is different to cuts....

And did you watch the video? if you did you would see vitali was not out on his feet.

At the end of the 6th round Vitali was all over the place holding on...another round or 2 he would off ended up on the canvas.

The stoppage saved his invincible image...Vitali was never the same after that uppercut landed...Your hero also quit against Byrd.

Cowered away in the corner once he felt Sanders punching power as well.

The genius of PBF wrote:

lovely_london wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:Vitali Klitschko was out on his feet, his face was ripped to shreds and on the verge of being knocked out...How can anyone write off a GREAT Lewis win.

He had more than one cut as well...I love Klitschko and his fans logic "if your winning on points when the fight is stopped then you win the fight".

Hey I guess Klitschko's win over Hide is not legitimate as Hide was winning the fight before being stopped.

clearly a knock out is different to cuts....

And did you watch the video? if you did you would see vitali was not out on his feet.

At the end of the 6th round Vitali was all over the place holding on...another round or 2 he would off ended up on the canvas.

The stoppage saved his invincible image...Vitali was never the same after that uppercut landed...Your hero also quit against Byrd.

Cowered away in the corner once he felt Sanders punching power as well.

vitali holds on in every fight. But i disagree he was holding on for life in the 6th at the end. the last 12 seconds he holds on. Hardly a sign that he was holding on for life when he held for 12 seconds and lewis only managed to connect with one punch during the hoding on.

He was holding on for a lot more than 12 seconds in that 6th round, he may have been outlanding Lewis but it was Lewis who was landing the effective punishing punches.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He was holding on for a lot more than 12 seconds in that 6th round, he may have been outlanding Lewis but it was Lewis who was landing the effective punishing punches.

please re watch the round because it was 12 seconds.

I just have and he was holding for the majority of the round, after any half decent punch from Lewis he would grab hold.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I just have and he was holding for the majority of the round, after any half decent punch from Lewis he would grab hold.

Write down the exact time in the round he holds on for and for how long. And write down what made him hold so was it a jab a power shot etc or was it just the two fighters came close.

I shall do the same after you with regards to lewis holding on etc.

And remember Vitali holds on in every fight. It is his tactic.

My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

oxring wrote:

Union Cane wrote:Lennox Lewis W TKO6

No amount of "Yeah, but..." is going to change that.

Exactly. Vitali's face didn't hold up. Being cut is a legitimate grounds for a stoppage. His face was sliced apart - that's all there is to it.

Vitali can feel aggrieved that Lennox ran a mile from the rematch after a pretty disrespectful post-fight presser. But in fairness to Lewis - the fight showed his intelligence. He got away with a lucky escape against Vitali - he knew he was done as a top level boxer - and he got out at the right time.

As a fan I wish he'd given Vitali his opportunity to take the HW torch onwards. As a man I can admire his reasons for calling it a day.

That's the point. I've read that he deliberately hit Vit to cut him. Fact is it was a legit win but somewhat lucky with the cut.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

don't say something if you wont back it up. No point in me saying he was not holding while you keep saying he was. If you think he was holding then break up the round and prove it.

If you wont do it then stop saying that klitschko was hanging on for life.

Opening two cuts must be sheer luck.

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

don't say something if you wont back it up. No point in me saying he was not holding while you keep saying he was. If you think he was holding then break up the round and prove it.

If you wont do it then stop saying that klitschko was hanging on for life.

The proof is just simply watching the round, I see little point breaking down a round that everyone is able to physically watch.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Opening two cuts must be sheer luck.

What it his tactic to cut him?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

Whats your problem mate? Ive been reading this forum for a little while now and with you its always pathetic this, rubbish that, pointless this, uneducated that. You need to lighten up. Not everyone is going to hold the same view as you every time. Why the hostilty?

He landed two punches and they opened up cuts, that isn't luck.

Gordy wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

Whats your problem mate? Ive been reading this forum for a little while now and with you its always pathetic this, rubbish that, pointless this, uneducated that. You need to lighten up. Not everyone is going to hold the same view as you every time. Why the hostilty?

The hostility is people making up rubbish when I am able to see for myself what happened, not as though its a fight we don't have access to so don't see the need to make up lies about it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

don't say something if you wont back it up. No point in me saying he was not holding while you keep saying he was. If you think he was holding then break up the round and prove it.

If you wont do it then stop saying that klitschko was hanging on for life.

The proof is just simply watching the round, I see little point breaking down a round that everyone is able to physically watch.

Well there was a lot of holding in the final round but the majority of it (90%) was just because the two fighters came close. It had nothing to do with either fighter being hurt because they had just been punched.

If you watch round 1 there was a lot of holding as well and this was just because the two fighters came close/

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He landed two punches and they opened up cuts, that isn't luck.

Landing the punches is skill. That Vit got cut as a result is the luck. I've seen boxers get cut via an innocuous looking jab. It happens and lewis got the lucky break.

Did he set out to cut Vit? Still haven't answered that simple question.

McCall set out to KO Lewis in R2. He did it. He said how he would do it also. He did it. No luck. Even did it with eyes closed. Superior fighter to Lewis. Beat him with eyes closed.

Showing no bias at all saying that McCall is a superior fighter, seeing as though im not Lennox Lewis and nor are you neither of us is able to answer that question.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Gordy wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

Whats your problem mate? Ive been reading this forum for a little while now and with you its always pathetic this, rubbish that, pointless this, uneducated that. You need to lighten up. Not everyone is going to hold the same view as you every time. Why the hostilty?

The hostility is people making up rubbish when I am able to see for myself what happened, not as though its a fight we don't have access to so don't see the need to make up lies about it.

Thats the point. It isn't rubbish. Its a legit held point of view especially when he has evidence on video to back it up. It makes it fact.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Showing no bias at all saying that McCall is a superior fighter, seeing as though im not Lennox Lewis and nor are you neither of us is able to answer that question.

Proof is there for all to see ghosty. He called it and did it. No luck. Did it with the added aplomb of his eyes closed. Wonderful performance.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Gordy wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

Whats your problem mate? Ive been reading this forum for a little while now and with you its always pathetic this, rubbish that, pointless this, uneducated that. You need to lighten up. Not everyone is going to hold the same view as you every time. Why the hostilty?

The hostility is people making up rubbish when I am able to see for myself what happened, not as though its a fight we don't have access to so don't see the need to make up lies about it.

Thats the point. It isn't rubbish. Its a legit held point of view especially when he has evidence on video to back it up. It makes it fact.

It would be fact if it was reality but it is not, Lewis gets close and he holds on, he holds on for about a minute of the round in total. Gets hit with an uppercut holds on, gets hit with a left hand holds on, hit with a jab holds on.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Gordy wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My eyes aren't lying to me and for the sake of your pathetic argument i'm not going to systematically break down one round second by second, is it also his tactic to get hit with uppercuts? What about being dominated on the inside?

Whats your problem mate? Ive been reading this forum for a little while now and with you its always pathetic this, rubbish that, pointless this, uneducated that. You need to lighten up. Not everyone is going to hold the same view as you every time. Why the hostilty?

The hostility is people making up rubbish when I am able to see for myself what happened, not as though its a fight we don't have access to so don't see the need to make up lies about it.

Thats the point. It isn't rubbish. Its a legit held point of view especially when he has evidence on video to back it up. It makes it fact.

It would be fact if it was reality but it is not, Lewis gets close and he holds on, he holds on for about a minute of the round in total. Gets hit with an uppercut holds on, gets hit with a left hand holds on, hit with a jab holds on.

just point out when he held on and for how long and why.

Thats how he fights. Always has done that. But you are exaggerating the time in that round that he held. Lewis was also holding.

No exaggeration at all.

Someone merge the threads please.

It is an exaggeration as I have just watched the round.

Beginning of round- 4 seconds
2.25- 4 seconds
2.07- 4 seconds
2.00- 9 seconds
1.48- 5 seconds
1.40- 3 seconds
1.26- 5 seconds
1.18- 4 seconds
1.06- 6 seconds
0.57- 3 seconds
0.51- 4 seconds
0.43- 5 seconds
0.27- 4 seconds
0.17- 12 seconds

That's a total of 1 minute and 12 seconds of holding, hardly an exaggeration now is it?

And they were both holding. Almost doing a waltz.

More often than not initiated by Vitali as Lewis got close to him, would veer his head up and try and protect the cut, me apparently exaggerating was no exaggeration at all.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:More often than not initiated by Vitali as Lewis got close to him, would veer his head up and try and protect the cut, me apparently exaggerating was no exaggeration at all.

I will check that the times you said are correct tomorrow as im tired now. However holding on is not a sign of being out of your depth. When I watched the fight and I stated earlier 90% of the holds was just because the two fighters got close and not because of a punch that hurt the other fighter.

There was a lot of holding done by both fighters whenever they got close. Primarily because both are useless inside.

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:More often than not initiated by Vitali as Lewis got close to him, would veer his head up and try and protect the cut, me apparently exaggerating was no exaggeration at all.

I will check that the times you said are correct tomorrow as im tired now. However holding on is not a sign of being out of your depth. When I watched the fight and I stated earlier 90% of the holds was just because the two fighters got close and not because of a punch that hurt the other fighter.

Convenient.

azania wrote:There was a lot of holding done by both fighters whenever they got close. Primarily because both are useless inside.

Vitali more useless as the fight highlighted.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:There was a lot of holding done by both fighters whenever they got close. Primarily because both are useless inside.

Vitali more useless as the fight highlighted.

Nothing wrong with being crap inside. Ali wasn't much cop as an inside fighter.

Outside fighters rarely are, Lewis and Vitali never needed an inside game so why bother with it.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Outside fighters rarely are, Lewis and Vitali never needed an inside game so why bother with it.

Exactly. Riddick Bowe did though.

Khan take heed. Learn to fight properly on the outside.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Outside fighters rarely are, Lewis and Vitali never needed an inside game so why bother with it.

Exactly. Riddick Bowe did though.

Khan take heed. Learn to fight properly on the outside.

Bowe was not a proper champ imo he ducked Lewis who destgroyed him in the amateurs and threw his belt in the bin one of the most shameful ducks in history.

I think someone needs to explain to some people on here was a KO means.

It doesn't mean you are unconsciousness on the floor, it means you are physically in no condition to continue the fight!

60 stiches! Had he carried on he could have been blinded.

Quote from the doctor, (Because you obviously know better)

"When he raised his head up, his upper eyelid covered his field of vision. At that point I had no other option but to stop the fight. If he had to move his head to see me, there was no way he could defend his way against a punch."

The doctor has the boxers best interests you clearly don't

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:More often than not initiated by Vitali as Lewis got close to him, would veer his head up and try and protect the cut, me apparently exaggerating was no exaggeration at all.

I will check that the times you said are correct tomorrow as im tired now. However holding on is not a sign of being out of your depth. When I watched the fight and I stated earlier 90% of the holds was just because the two fighters got close and not because of a punch that hurt the other fighter.

Convenient.

Convienent? All you did was list some times that there was holding. You never said what made the holding happen. And like I said before when i watched the round the majority of the holding was just because the two fighters got close and not because of a punch.

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Outside fighters rarely are, Lewis and Vitali never needed an inside game so why bother with it.

Exactly. Riddick Bowe did though.

Khan take heed. Learn to fight properly on the outside.

Bowe was not a proper champ imo he ducked Lewis who destgroyed him in the amateurs and threw his belt in the bin one of the most shameful ducks in history.

Not a huge fan of Bowe but he acquired the title of 'proper' champion in an all out war with Holyfield, he like Holyfield and Tyson seemed to see Lewis as too high a risk but you do the man an injustice all the same.

BoxingFan88 wrote:I think someone needs to explain to some people on here was a KO means.

It doesn't mean you are unconsciousness on the floor, it means you are physically in no condition to continue the fight!

60 stiches! Had he carried on he could have been blinded.

Quote from the doctor, (Because you obviously know better)

"When he raised his head up, his upper eyelid covered his field of vision. At that point I had no other option but to stop the fight. If he had to move his head to see me, there was no way he could defend his way against a punch."

The doctor has the boxers best interests you clearly don't

Not the poit. The stoppage was correct. The win legit. MMy position is that Lewis was being outboxed during the fight. He was somewhat fortuitious to open a cut that bad especially as the punch that caused it grazed Vit's eyelid.

Bowe was afraid of Lewis why do people think he is known as chicken Bowe? It is because he ducked Lewis who he knew would destroy him again he did not want to fight him after Lewis stopped him in the amateurs. A proper champ does not do this that is why Bowe is not a proper champ imo.