England cricket sides - are they mentally incapable of batting on Asian pitches?

Seriously this is pathetic.

<rant>

I'm more interested to see how our bowling does with Panesar, Onions and Tremlett in the team. With regards to batting, it'll all come together on the 17th.

Batting wise we have been atrocious so far. Stupid shots, lack of concentration.

Pakistans bowlers must be chomping at the bit to bowl at us now.

Like I said, our middle order is always the same in these warm up games. Come the 17th, I fully expect the likes of Trott, Bell and KP to get some runs.

Like they always do on these Asian tours where England have a spectaular record you mean?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Like they always do on these Asian tours where England have a spectaular record you mean?

I'm not sure how relevant that statistic is with regard to this England team. We didn't have a particularly good record going to Oz last winter and we all know how that turned out don't we?

It's only a warm-up. Lets not get too over-excited.

I have no concerns, our team is packed with big game players. We'll be alright.

Same here, has England let anyone down in the last two years ?

And I still think that even though England do not have a great record recently on Asian pitches, that will be changed against Pakistan and SL. Who - when you take a serious look at them, are nothing special even on home pitches.

Pakistan have not beaten a top side since their beating in Eng, (2010) and have only just beaten some of the weaker teams in series and SL's record recently speaks for itself.

It's all good for England

Pietersen, Trott and Morgan to me epitomise the term "big game players". I wouldn't be too concerned yet, like skye and Fof I think using previous sides' performances in the subcontinent to judge this England side is poor logic at best.

not hugely fussed still, as Mike and Fists say players like Trott, Morgan and KP will be different animals when the big games start. I'd like Morgan to get a decent knock in the second innings here though, not necessarily a big 100, but a nice 30+ would be good.

So Morgan has only played in one big game for England so far in his test career?

Its a big series for him as we have all said. Its doesnt bode well that hes not making runs against the buffets.
As for Aus, I thought England did pretty well in the warm up games there? So far here in 3 innings theyve looked out of sorts ( Cook aside ) and relied on low order runs to bail them out.

Im not saying England are no hopers here but it is frustrating that good England sides go over time and again and just cant seem to cope with the conditions. Cook has always been better away from home, his big wekaness against the moving ball isnt so exposed. Morgan is suppossed to be the great player of spinner and inovater who can score runs against negative bowling, yet to see that from him.

The next two series are huge for Morgan, I agree PSW, if he can not do it here (which is deemed to be to his strengths) then I think England should look elsewhere for a replacement in TESTS.

i have no concerns at all about our batting on these pitches...remeber most of these players have had a lot of time off. im sure they will come good when the series starts.

skyeman wrote:The next two series are huge for Morgan, I agree PSW, if he can not do it here (which is deemed to be to his strengths) then I think England should look elsewhere for a replacement in TESTS.

Yeah noone can deny hes more than done the business in limited overs, by far our strongest performer since he came in.

cfan, people used that excuse for India struggling in the warm ups in England. They came into that series as the unstoppable best team in the world, also having just added a world cup to their ridiculous test mace.
And it doenst change that this is a continuation of a depressing trend for England. They go to these countries and struggle to adapt.

na i think we will be fine..also apaprt from ajmal the pakistan bowling attack are nothing to write home about

Ajmal-world class

Gul-better in odi's

Cheema-early days in test cricket

Rehman-Primarily a defensive spinner

Hafeez-thereatning to left handers


india had to deal with a world class bowling attack...we dont!!

cricketfan90 wrote:na i think we will be fine..also apaprt from ajmal the pakistan bowling attack are nothing to write home about

Ajmal-world class

Gul-better in odi's

Cheema-early days in test cricket

Rehman-Primarily a defensive spinner

Hafeez-thereatning to left handers


india had to deal with a world class bowling attack...we dont!!

Ajaml and Riaz will account for Pietersen and Strauss, Morgan will account fdor himslef, Bell cant buy a ryun at the minute.

Negative Nelly says that England will rely on Cook Prior partnerships followed by Bresnan Broad Swann banging 30+ each



Im not saying theyll lose, Im just saying its annoying they turn up in these countries and underperform time and again. It must partly be a mental thing.

Riaz wont play, cheema is the man in possession and will play.

let's not overdo the pessimism. Bell averages over 100 in tests this year, hardly my definition of "can't buy a run"...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:let's not overdo the pessimism. Bell averages over 100 in tests this year, hardly my definition of "can't buy a run"...

Well last year ... and none of those tests were in Asia which is my point. He comes here and starts averaging near the 10 mark.

well then surely he will get runs out there at somepoint, if he is averaging 100 on seaming pitches!

Ian Bell easily has the technique to succeed out here. A couple of failures in low key games, if anything, will ensure he works even harder in the nets and concentrates to his maximum when the Tests get under way. He will get runs.

Fists of Fury wrote:Ian Bell easily has the technique to succeed out here.

Right so is it a mental problem then?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

It may just be the transience of form. Bell has been scoring runs for fun since Boxing Day 2009 (8 hundreds, 7 fifties & 1876 runs @ 89.33 in 26 innings) - you can't expect that sort of run to just keep going.

2 failures in 3 innings of warm up matches has no mental problem about it.

Not really a problem at the moment, but we should keep this thread in mind, once two Test's are completed, then we can say more.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Ian Bell easily has the technique to succeed out here.

Right so is it a mental problem then?

top stuff.

More like 'jumping the gun, it is far too early to make such claims' stuff, actually.

onions bowled 3-0-0-12 before taking off in the warm up game....(onions watch :P)

[quote="cricketfan90"]

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Ian Bell easily has the technique to succeed out here.

Right so is it a mental problem then?

Not agreeing, but it was a good line

Bell or Cook to finish the series as top scorer, probably Cook

amanuensis wrote:Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

It may just be the transience of form. Bell has been scoring runs for fun since Boxing Day 2009 (8 hundreds, 7 fifties & 1876 runs @ 89.33 in 26 innings) - you can't expect that sort of run to just keep going.

Not when he goes to Asia no.



Can someone remind me how these lads got on in India for the world cup?

You are exaggerating the problem by comparing apples with pears. It is well known and accepted that this England team is mentally tougher than previous ones, but with regards to the WC there are two factors which have to be taken into account:
1) Fatigue after the ashes.
2) England haven't figured out how to play one-day games anyway.

By all means should England collapse in the first test feel free to come up with some theory, but for now I believe you are merely continuing the fine England tradition of moaning pessimism.

Fair enough clearly with the world cup they were fatigued after the Ashes were as this time they are undercooked due to not having played enough cricket recently.

Absolutely not not because they have a problem on Asian pitches.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Bell has scored test runs in Pakistan, Sri Lanka & Bangladesh - that suggests he can bat on Asian pitches. Whether he manages many in the upcoming matches is another matter.

They are playing warm-ups. Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen have all got starts which is what you want from a warm-up. Morgan's lack of runs is the only real worry.

I don't think you can hold the WC against England's batsmen for reasons to say that they can't play on a sub continent wicket.

Strauss - Had a good WC including a 158 vs India.
Cook - Didn't play in the WC.
Trott - Had a good WC with the bat. In the top run scorers in the tournament.
KP - Went home injured.
Bell - Average and unspectacualr WC, but has scored runs ever since.
Morgan - A few decent knocks, especially vs Bangladesh after only just coming back from injury.

So to say that England's can't play on these pitches because of the WC is a bit fanciful to say the least. I think Morgan needs runs in the warm up games more for his own confidence rather than because his place in the side is under threat, but if he fails in this series then maybe England will look to Bopara. And Taylor has failed so far in Bangladesh so no pressure from him yet. Come on Jimmy!

amanuensis wrote:Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Bell has scored test runs in Pakistan, Sri Lanka & Bangladesh - that suggests he can bat on Asian pitches. Whether he manages many in the upcoming matches is another matter.

Monty has scored test runs in India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh but I wouldnt say that proves he can bat anywhere.

If we look at the Ashes warm-ups:

1st game - first innings deficit, Pietersen and Broad made 50s. Strauss made a century in the seconds as we won by 6 wickets, but no-one else in the match made more than 40 in an innings.

2nd game - 90 from Colly, 60 from Bell, a few 20s and 30s. Centuries from Cook and Strauss in the second.

3rd game - we got 500 runs with Cook and Colly making 50s, Bell got 192. Won by 10 wickets.

4th game - not taken entirely seriously with some declaration bowling and batting order changes, but 50s for Strauss, Bell and Prior.

What we see is an improvement over the first three games. Things not clicking in warm-up matches isn't the end of the world, provided they are ready for the first Test.

That said, the scores don't account for how the batsmen played and how they were dismissed. What's fairly worrying is hearing of our batsmen getting out slog-sweeping and advancing down the wicket.

m@tt wrote:
That said, the scores don't account for how the batsmen played and how they were dismissed. What's fairly worrying is hearing of our batsmen getting out slog-sweeping and advancing down the wicket.

How would you say England should play spin? From the crease as if it's a minefield? I understand the arguments against the slog-sweep (although Pietersen, Cook and Morgan all play it reasonably effectively, and worldwide Ponting, Hussey, Hayden, heck even Tendulkar all use it fairly often), but what on earth is wrong with advancing down the wicket?

I haven't seen any of the warm up games but if England are playing like that it sounds very much like a plan that Flower at al. will have come up with to deal with the spin. It's been an issue for a long time with English batsmen going back to Adelaide in 06, then against Murali when SL toured England in 08 and pretty much all the time in ODI's that we get bogged down against spin and forget to score runs and end up getting frustrated and playing a really reckless shot or we allow the opposition to get loads of men around the bat and complete shut down the scoring options of our batsmen. So it sounds like that they have gone out there with they intent of scoring runs against the spin and aslong as they strike the balance and do it correctly and at the right times, then this is definitely the mindset to be in. If they just allow Ajmal to bowl to them he will get them out with his variations.

Just on a side note, the best slog sweeper of the ball I remember was Trescothick. Absolutely supeb at it.

See Cook is so mentally shot hes not even turned up for the second innings

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:See Cook is so mentally shot hes not even turned up for the second innings

Of course they are all capable of batting on Asian pitches. It's just a question of whether any batsman who gets off to a good start can go on with it.

They seemed to have had a little trouble building up bigger scores in the first warm up match (except for Cook and Strauss) but are doing better now.

Really? They quit early again. Clearly scared

Maybe they need to work on their bowling in time for the Test. It should be all over before lunch with PCB already 3 wickets down.

Mike Selig wrote:

m@tt wrote:
That said, the scores don't account for how the batsmen played and how they were dismissed. What's fairly worrying is hearing of our batsmen getting out slog-sweeping and advancing down the wicket.

How would you say England should play spin? From the crease as if it's a minefield? I understand the arguments against the slog-sweep (although Pietersen, Cook and Morgan all play it reasonably effectively, and worldwide Ponting, Hussey, Hayden, heck even Tendulkar all use it fairly often), but what on earth is wrong with advancing down the wicket?

I'm not saying that they don't use those shots. Although a slog-sweep is a poor choice early in the innings - fine as a release shot in ODIs, but in Tests I would rather they get their eye in a bit before.

Regarding advancing down the wicket - it just sounds a bit risky. You definitely do need to use your feet on the sub-continent, but you don't necessarily need to go over the top - for me, when I hear advancing down the wicket, I think hitting over the top, whereas when I hear using your feet, I think along the ground. Perhaps it's just the shots that I associate with "advancing down the wicket".

cough cough

hmmmm certainly been an abysmal start for us.

As soon as I heard that England were not going with the second spinner (Panesar - despite him being the best performing bowler in the warm up event), I knew that England would probably suffer humiliation (although Pakistan themselves are in turmoil from events within Pakistan itself as well as the match fixing scandal).

England were humiliated in the one day matches in India. They really need to change their one strategy mentality.