The Wales vs England bickering thread, 2012 - PONIES ALLOWED!

[TycroesOsprey]

First topic message reminder :

OK, every year we see threads that actually contain really good rugby discussion derailed by the ongoing Wales vs England bickering and WUMMING! I will name no names. I guess we have all been guilty .

Since most of the general bickering comes from the respective fans of Wales and England ; I thought I would create a thread for it in an effort to keep decent rugby discussion relatively WUM free in other threads.

So I will begin, An article in the Western Mail today pointed out how England are copying Gatlands youthful approach with a squad that has an average age of 25 and 428 caps between them.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/12/analysis-new-look-england-follow-youthful-wales-lead-91466-30105333/

Wales probable squad (once you have taken out Shane and Wellies from the World cup squad with their probable replacements) lines up at the same average age and about 820 caps between them. England are copying Wales' approcach but are way behind. Clearly all things point to a wales victory in HQ this year.

Discuss

post script

Please may I emphasise that this is a bickering and banter thread, whilst mild wumming and banter are allowed please try not to stray over the line of decency.

[Biltong]

I am neutral.

[HERSH]

i wonder when other nh teams will join us in the WC winners club

It won't be Wales they've just missed there chance at the last one, it will be many years before they get another shot at it.

[english warrior]

England - The only NH side to trouble the engravers on the Webb-Ellis, which is nearly 9 years ago, so until anyone tops that, or equals it we will always be the most successful side in the NH, simple as.

Wales are not and never will be favourites at Twickers and all this B.S. from a team of average players and their one eyed, self delusional fans will be shown up for what it truly is.

Look, i like Wales and the Welsh having visited them in 1970 for a holiday in Rhyl, so i consider myself something of an expert on their mindset , which some might call 'Optimistic', but given the reality of the past 20 years, i feel that it is verging on Mass delusion, and psychosis, why else would a team of no -hopers believe that they are favourites, except to come second??

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Wales are not and never will be favourites at Twickers and all this B.S. from a team of average players and their one eyed, self delusional fans will be shown up for what it truly is.

It's not just Welsh fans who have Wales as favourites. Sorry if that means you have to rant at Englishmen as well as Welshmen.

[HERSH]

New Zealand have been favourites at every RWC so far!

[miteyironpaw]

New Zealand have been favourites at every RWC so far!

That's not actually true HERSH. They were not favourites in 1987 (Australia), 1991 (Australia/France), 2003 (England) or 2011 (everyone had given up).

The moral is that some times teams do best when they are not favourites.

[Breadvan]

Wales are faves imo. They're playing the better rugby, simple as. I just hope England click on the day and win.

[RubyGuby]

Wales are faves imo. They're playing the better rugby, simple as. I just hope England click on the day and win.

Breadvan - there's no room for logic and reason on this thread mate - you've now gone and spoilt it

[english warrior]

Ruby- Logic and reason are not Welsh traits, as they mainly seem to find hope and blind optimism more to their liking. How can a team that came 4th last year in the 6 nations and 4th at the WC (where they beat nobody of note) proclaim themselves favourites, against a team that won said 6 nations, last year and has beaten them at a ratio of 3-1 since 1990. Its beyond me, and thats not a WUM, i'm incredulous at the B.S.!!

[damngoodOvalball]

I would have thought that England were the favourites in the 1991 RWC, or at least joint favourites with Aus. We choked that year big time. The AB's saw that, and became determined to steal our title as biggest RWC chokers, which typically they achieved with aplomb until 2011

[miteyironpaw]

EW, It's just the well known Cycle of Welsh Pre-match Optimism.

It's so predictable and repetitive that the international atomic agency use it to measure variance in caesium-133 transitions.

Trust me, 5 minutes before kick off they'll be quietly wetting their pants and claiming that as long as they put in a good performance, the outcome doesn't matter.

[english warrior]

Mightyironpaw- Correct there re our Welsh neighbours, when they lose it will be seen as a kind of 'Moral victory' that at least they played the Welsh way, which to me is code for 'LOSERS'.

Roll on Saturday ,and while England winning will please me, i then have to put it in to context, and remind myself, that its only Wales!!

[RubyGuby]

Ruby- Logic and reason are not Welsh traits, as they mainly seem to find hope and blind optimism more to their liking. How can a team that came 4th last year in the 6 nations and 4th at the WC (where they beat nobody of note) proclaim themselves favourites, against a team that won said 6 nations, last year and has beaten them at a ratio of 3-1 since 1990. Its beyond me, and thats not a WUM, i'm incredulous at the B.S.!!

Lets look at this one piece at a time Mr Logic:

1 - How can a team that came 4th last year in the 6 nations - 4th last year meant 1 loss more than England who were hammered out of site by the team we beat in Cardiff

2 - 4th at the WC - Disappointing as it was England were 8th after a french mauling - we lost by 1 point to the french after playing without our Captain for 65 minutes after which we still dominated the game, scored the only try but missed simple pots at goal


3 -a ratio of 3-1 - The ratio is 5/5 for the last 10 games and I believe we won the last.


4 -In 1991 England came to Cardiff having not won there for 30 years - Us welsh knew the writing was on the wall as we were in tatters as a team. That's reality for you - difficult to man up to but that's life.

5 -proclaim themselves favourites - The media and many balanced english folks and bookmakers are making Wales favourites - Like I said I can understand its difficult for you to accept but life can be tough on occasion - Enjoy the game

[HERSH]

"The ratio is 5/5 for the last 10 games and I believe we won the last."

I've waited years to use this one,

"But that was a World cup warm up and doesn't count as you were playing our 2nds and you were at home"

[miteyironpaw]

Yes, let's only consider competitive games and not friendlies.

[RubyGuby]

You actually had your first choice team out Hersh, we had a mixture but hey ho

You boys are gonna come on here on Monday after a 4 point defeat and claim a moral victory as you did in 2009 with Worsley as MOM in a defeat as we didn't run away with the game - betcha

[RubyGuby]

Yes, let's only consider competitive games and not friendlies.

Let's only consider competitive games - OK that rules out 1990-2004 as we could't compete with all our players oop North

Feck - we're way ahead of you

[english warrior]

England came 8th in the World cup ??? Do you understand how the World cup works ? or do you cover up your one good eye when it concerns England.

England finished joint 5th along with 3 other sides who did not play each other in a round robin and then get placed on the outcome.

Wales finished a very streaky 4th after losing to all the good sides and beating the dross!! My, oh my, with you the Glass is full for Wales when its empty and when Englands is nearly full you proclaim it dry!! Get a life and get some prespective, before Wales are humiliated further!

[HERSH]

You actually had your first choice team out Hersh, we had a mixture but hey ho

You boys are gonna come on here on Monday after a 4 point defeat and claim a moral victory as you did in 2009 with Worsley as MOM in a defeat as we didn't run away with the game - betcha

A mixture? they just keep coming!

[RubyGuby]

A mixture and they just keep coming - Too true mate too true - Charlie Hodgson, Dowson give youth a chance

[RubyGuby]

I'll speak to you boys on Monday

[miteyironpaw]

England came 8th in the World cup ??? Do you understand how the World cup works ? or do you cover up your one good eye when it concerns England.

England finished joint 5th along with 3 other sides who did not play each other in a round robin and then get placed on the outcome.

Wales finished a very streaky 4th after losing to all the good sides and beating the dross!! My, oh my, with you the Glass is full for Wales when its empty and when Englands is nearly full you proclaim it dry!! Get a life and get some prespective, before Wales are humiliated further!

To be fair EW, claiming we were joint 5th, is a little silly. It's like Wales claiming that 4th in the 6N is the same as 2nd equal.

Let's be honest, we were both knocked out of the world cup by France, who got within a point of New Zealand in the final, albeit with NZ missing some key front line players.

This shows how narrow the margins between the teams are, and it is more reflective of England's comparative ambition on the world stage that we saw this as an unacceptable failure, whereas Wales are still celebrating.

[bedfordwelsh]

Yes, let's only consider competitive games and not friendlies.

YAAAAAAYYYYYY

Thank god for that, that means I can forget about Aug 07

[damngoodOvalball]

England and wales won exactly the same at the RWC ie nowt. Its fair to say that Wales played better rugby than England and are continuing to do so, but surely this massive celebration of Wales's 2011 RWC is a tad OTT?

A GS on the other hand would deserve considerable celebration

[Breadvan]

Wales are faves imo. They're playing the better rugby, simple as. I just hope England click on the day and win.

Breadvan - there's no room for logic and reason on this thread mate - you've now gone and spoilt it

Ok then

Its England versus Wales, who will win?
There fathers fat and their mothers thin
and grandpa Simpson stinks of gin!


Heyyyy....thats obsession for men.

[HERSH]

A mixture and they just keep coming - Too true mate too true - Charlie Hodgson, Dowson give youth a chance

Why!

We won a World Cup with dad’s army, Look what happened when Wales picked an inexperienced Captain a little rush of blood and he was given his marching orders. in 20/30 years time when Wales are still chasing the Webb Ellis Cup, I hope people remember the tackle that cost them the RWC in 2011

[miteyironpaw]

I'm sure that's the way the story will be told in 20/30 years time in Wales anyway Hersh. Possibly it will run a bit like this:

I was there that day! There we were camped out on the NZ goal line, 5 minutes to play and 3 points ahead in the RWC final. One hand of the world cup. Then Warburton put in a crunching tackle on Richie McCaw. As the captain (who had been out played by Lydiate all day, went down in a crumpled head), Andy Haden theatrically leapt out of the lineout in a blatant underhand cheating move, and Bryce Lawrence the NZ referee produced a red card, and went on to award NZ a penalty try under the posts. I was there that day! We gave them a real scare, and it was a moral victory for Wales really, on our day we would have had the cup! anybody who was there knows that.

[TycroesOsprey]

I'm sure that's the way the story will be told in 20/30 years time in Wales anyway Hersh. Possibly it will run a bit like this:

I was there that day! There we were camped out on the NZ goal line, 5 minutes to play and 3 points ahead in the RWC final. One hand of the world cup. Then Warburton put in a crunching tackle on Richie McCaw. As the captain (who had been out played by Lydiate all day, went down in a crumpled head), Andy Haden theatrically leapt out of the lineout in a blatant underhand cheating move, and Bryce Lawrence the NZ referee produced a red card, and went on to award NZ a penalty try under the posts. I was there that day! We gave them a real scare, and it was a moral victory for Wales really, on our day we would have had the cup! anybody who was there knows that.

Do you actually watch teh sport or is you knowledge based on googling rugby for dummies?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

England came 8th in the World cup ??? Do you understand how the World cup works ? or do you cover up your one good eye when it concerns England.

England finished joint 5th along with 3 other sides who did not play each other in a round robin and then get placed on the outcome.

Wales finished a very streaky 4th after losing to all the good sides and beating the dross!! My, oh my, with you the Glass is full for Wales when its empty and when Englands is nearly full you proclaim it dry!! Get a life and get some prespective, before Wales are humiliated further!

To be fair EW, claiming we were joint 5th, is a little silly. It's like Wales claiming that 4th in the 6N is the same as 2nd equal.

Let's be honest, we were both knocked out of the world cup by France, who got within a point of New Zealand in the final, albeit with NZ missing some key front line players.

This shows how narrow the margins between the teams are, and it is more reflective of England's comparative ambition on the world stage that we saw this as an unacceptable failure, whereas Wales are still celebrating.

surely it shows we can all beat anyone on our day, except new zealand

[miteyironpaw]

It would be interesting if googling rugby for dummies turned up so much information about Welsh rugby, wouldn't it? Go on TO, give us a pony.

[TycroesOsprey]

Spoiler:

[Luckless Pedestrian]

England and wales won exactly the same at the RWC ie nowt. Its fair to say that Wales played better rugby than England and are continuing to do so, but surely this massive celebration of Wales's 2011 RWC is a tad OTT?

If you'd suffered as many humiliating World Cups as we have, Oval, you might think differently!

And again, it's not just Welsh fans who thought we were good at the World Cup. It's not just us blowing our own trumpets, other people want to blow our trumpets too. Many of them Englishmen. Ooh-er!

[HERSH]

Stop living in the past that was 2011.

I've seen nothing from Wales to suggest they have improved, in fact I think they may have peaked, the Lineout and scrum will cost them.

[damngoodOvalball]

England and wales won exactly the same at the RWC ie nowt. Its fair to say that Wales played better rugby than England and are continuing to do so, but surely this massive celebration of Wales's 2011 RWC is a tad OTT?

If you'd suffered as many humiliating World Cups as we have, Oval, you might think differently!

And again, it's not just Welsh fans who thought we were good at the World Cup. It's not just us blowing our own trumpets, other people want to blow our trumpets too. Many of them Englishmen. Ooh-er!

Yeah thats valid and wales did play well but despite this, they didnt actually beat a higher ranked team than them. I just think that the response should be along the lines of 'we played well, and had a good world cup relative to our previous efforts BUT 4th place is not enough'....

Its not exclusively a Welsh thing of course, but I dont recall England fans celebrating our 2nd place in '07 as much as some of the Welsh are celebrating coming 4th. Perhaps I'm being a tad biased there but not intentionally so, and I expect I would feel aa little differently if I was a Wales fan considering your previous RWC efforts!

[TycroesOsprey]

England and wales won exactly the same at the RWC ie nowt. Its fair to say that Wales played better rugby than England and are continuing to do so, but surely this massive celebration of Wales's 2011 RWC is a tad OTT?

If you'd suffered as many humiliating World Cups as we have, Oval, you might think differently!

And again, it's not just Welsh fans who thought we were good at the World Cup. It's not just us blowing our own trumpets, other people want to blow our trumpets too. Many of them Englishmen. Ooh-er!

Yeah thats valid and wales did play well but despite this, they didnt actually beat a higher ranked team than them. I just think that the response should be along the lines of 'we played well, and had a good world cup relative to our previous efforts BUT 4th place is not enough'....
Its not exclusively a Welsh thing of course, but I dont recall England fans celebrating our 2nd place in '07 as much as some of the Welsh are celebrating coming 4th. Perhaps I'm being a tad biased there but not intentionally so, and I expect I would feel aa little differently if I was a Wales fan considering your previous RWC efforts!

If you have listened to any of the welsh team or coaches that has been exactly the response. Of course the fans are mental, but dont assume that the team are.

[HERSH]

We didn't celebrate 2nd place in 2007 as we know what it is to win, plus we’re a humble nation, but in many ways the journey that England took in 2007 was far superior to that of Wales 2011 4th place effort, but well played Wales, well played.

[miteyironpaw]

Ok we *did* celebrate coming 2nd in 2007. But we still know what it is to win. And it wasn't as good. But still better than being knocked out by Fiji in the pool.

[HERSH]

But still better than being knocked out by Fiji in the pool.

I was in a Welsh pub on that joyful day.

[damngoodOvalball]

true hersh, and what a feeling it is. Incomparable to anything really, apart from an unbeaten tour of NZ and Australia which was also pretty epic. A GS is good but doesnt come close to the ultimate prize. Its almost a shame that fans from only four countries have tasted such success. I guess that will have to change one day in the future. Surely France will eventually win a final

TO, valid point. I should have specified that I was referring to the fans/press and not the players/management. The latter clearly realised that they had not, in fact, won the RWC after all.

[Glas a du]

That's very disrespectful to Fiji. They were on fire that tournament and almost caught a very poor South Africa out, just like you.

[Biltong]

Well when we won our first world cup I was as drunk as a skunk, ran down the street and invited everyone I saw for a braai.

The second time we won the world cup, i was just releived as I thought with our situation it would be our last opportunity to get a strong enough team together to win.

When we won.................................. Oh, sorry .................... Bryce Lawrence was in town.

[Glas a du]

As was David Pocock. The Boks of old would have 'managed' his threat.

[english warrior]

Biltongbek- Personally i thought that the best player for SA in 2007 was Alain Rolland, and nothing will change my view on that. SA were the best team, but England were the most aggrieved in the final.

[Biltong]

As was David Pocock. The Boks of old would have 'managed' his threat.

yeah he was absolutely brilliant, the best perfromance I have ever seen from a fetcher........................who was given free reign.

[Biltong]

Biltongbek- Personally i thought that the best player for SA in 2007 was Alain Rolland, and nothing will change my view on that. SA were the best team, but England were the most aggrieved in the final.

Yeah, he was our man of the match.

[Glas a du]

Biltongbek- Personally i thought that the best player for SA in 2007 was Alain Rolland, and nothing will change my view on that. SA were the best team, but England were the most aggrieved in the final.

He's French and Irish, what did you expect!

[damngoodOvalball]

I watched the 2003 final at the sportsman pub in Ravensdale in Ireland.
I was one of two England fans in there. Most of the Irish were actually quite keen on an England win, citing the NH factor. Unlike my dad, who knowing I was going to be there, had gone to the trouble of driving to Newry to buy a (seemingly child sized) Aus cricket shirt from a charity shop. I'm not sure what I was more disgusted by, the Aus crest on the shirt,or my old mans belly spilling liberally from the tight canary yellow shirt.

Still, good lash that day.

In 2007, I went to the final, and due to my continuing amazement that we had actually reached that far, I wasnt too annoyed that we lost. Good lash with the saffa's and few Kiwi's who hadnt sold their final tickets, in Paris that night

[HERSH]

Were there many optimistic Welsh fans there?

[damngoodOvalball]

Were there many optimistic Welsh fans there?

loads of them, all with thick Afrikaans accents

[Biltong]

Were there many optimistic Welsh fans there?

loads of them, all with thick Afrikaans accents

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