IRB advise Steven Shingler ineligible to play for Scotland

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16428283.stm

Steve Shingler is ineligible to play for any other country than Wales, the International Rugby Board has advised.

The 20-year-old fly-half was named in Scotland's Six Nations squad despite playing for Wales Under-20s against France in the 2011 Six Nations.

Shingler's eligibility to play for Scotland was examined by the IRB after it was questioned by the WRU.

"He is tied to Wales and ineligible to play for any other Union," a IRB statement advised.

But the IRB statement went on to say: "The SRU and WRU may wish the IRB Regulations Committee to consider this matter formally in accordance with IRB Regulation Two.

"The Unions are aware of the requirements of such a review."

The IRB ruling was made despite Shingler saying he "declined to sign a declaration" committing to Wales.

The IRB investigated after being contacted by both Wales and Scotland.

Continue reading the main story
Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales
Scottish Rugby statement
Wales believed that playing for their Under-20s against France Under-20s in 2011 means that he could only represent them in the future.

Neither Wales nor France run an A side and under IRB regulation eight meant that in 2011 their Under-20 teams were also considered to be their 2nd XVs.

And as the match was sanctioned by the IRB as a "next senior XV-a-side national representative team", any player on the field would have committed his future to that country for the rest of his international career.


Scotland were confident that Shingler, who has a Dumfries-born mother, was eligible to play for them despite playing full-back for Wales Under-20s.

They cited the example of two players who represented Wales Under-20s against France Under-20s in 2010 but subsequently declared for Ireland.

However, Wales claimed the situation was different with Shingler because the game in 2011 had a different status to the one the year before.

On 6 January the WRU said they had written to the IRB to outline how they had informed relevant players, including Shingler, that they were entitled "only to selection for Wales" following the Under-20 match against France.

And 24 hours earlier the Welsh board said: "Shingler was told by the U20 team management that if he played in the game he would become a Wales qualified player and therefore ineligible for selection for any other nation."


However, Shingler claimed he "declined to sign a declaration" and is therefore able to choose to play for Scotland.

The SRU said: "Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales."

It added that when picking Shingler it had taken into account the ruling by the IRB last year that former Wales Under-20s players James Loxton and Matthew Jarvis are eligible to play for Ireland, despite facing France Under-20s in 2010.

munkian wrote:Did they play in other countries capped rugby teams ?

Mapusua and Armitage most certainly did. I can't really find anything on Parisse i presume that he did because of the quality player he is.

Griff wrote:As, lots of people have said that 18 is too young for a player to decide. My only point is that they're tied in at the age to other countries too (those with A teams), so what's the difference?

I'm not sure you can blame Wales for naming their U20 team as their second team, Loxton and Jarvis were poached from Wales U20 team, Ireland also made an approach for Tom Prydie, hence why Wales capped him at 17! The Ruddock brothers were also Ospreys developed.

Surely if a country like Ireland is looking to poach players who are 17, then you have to say Wales locking their players down early is a good thing to do.

Shingler is 20 and Scotland have made an attempt to steal him, I think Wales are doing the right thing to be honest.

Why should Wales develop these young men and invest in them, only for them to be taken away just as they start to reach the correct age where they could be useful to Wales?

My gut instinct tells me the Welsh crowd is going to be out for Scotlands blood in Cardiff, after this.

aucklandlaurie wrote: The problem with under 20's is that,that could include players as young as 18 or even 17,and then they shift to another country on the other side of the World...its nuts..

Even if Shingler was selected by Wales,could he really in his heart play for not only a country that he doesnt want to play for,but also a country that has just grassed him up to the cops?

You are kidding?
He is Welsh, for goodness sake, if the best he can do is saying his mum was born in Scotland, despite being born in Wales and growing up here, then he is really scrapping the barrel, then pointing to a few cousins who he might of once met.
The truth is he was third choice fly half for the Scarlets region, but is still good enough for the Scottish national team. I don't blame him for accepting to play international rugby, he had more chance with Scotland, because they are such a píss poor team. but to be honest Scotland AND Ireland should develop their own players not look to take Wales. I'm glad Wales doesn't have a policy of looking at the professional teams in Ireland and their development teams and try and poach them in this manner, it's disrespectful.

AlynDavies wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:The person at the centre of this isnt the SRU, WRU or Shingler. Its the agent giving the lad advice that tried to chance his arm.

No, it's Andy Robinson because and the SRU because they tried to poach someone they knew wasn't eligible, maybe Wales did them a favour, what would of happened if Scotland had played him, then the IRB ruled he wasn't allowed to play?

Scotland could of easily got clarification of the player quietly from the IRB before making themselves look like muppets, in public.

Sorry Alyn but I don't think the SRU look like muppets at all. The player thought he was eligible he made that clear to the SRU and they selected him.

He was incorrect, yes they could have checked before selecting him. It seemed like a quick decision so obviously wasn't a difficult conclusion to come too.

Lets hope the ruling can be precedent and the WRU don't lose more players that they and the rest of Welsh Rugby have invested in to other countries. Two is enough.

Alyn

Have a look at the RIB guidance on this:

"For the purposes of this Regulation, a Player is deemed to have played for
the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next senior
fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of a Union if:
(a) He is selected for such team to play in an International Match against
the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next
senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of another Union
(or in a fifteen-a-side international Match against another Union’s
senior or next senior Touring Squad during an IRB approved
International Tour) and is present at the Match played by that team
either as a replacement, substitute or a playing member of that team
and has, at the time of the Match, reached the age of majority*;

*This is defined elsewhere as being 18 years old.

As such, there is a loophole in the guidance that would allow someone capped prior to age 18 to switch national allegiences, so capping someone at 17 is not acutally binding.

In this case, I don't think Wales have done very much wrong other than perhaps failed to get a correctly signed eligibility form from Shingler for a game that committed him to representing Wales.

Scotland have been a bit naughty and should have clarified the situation with the IRB prior to naming Shingler in their squad (as they must have known he's played a large number of U20 matches for Wales and that the U20s are quite clearly Wales 'next senior' team). I wonder if they knew they were in questionable territory and were hoping that by naming him in the squad they could force things through...

As for the player, if he really was wanting to keep his options open, he either hasn't been listening properly or has been poorly advised somewhere along the line.

Comfort wrote:Alyn, to be fair on the SRU, all they technically need is proof from the player that he qualifies for that particualr country, you would assume they asked the question on whether he was elligible, and he answered 'yes'. They wouldnt (and shouldnt) need to assume the player was lying, as I believe in this case, he was*.

I put this down to the player (and whoever he took his advice from).

(*due to his 14 appearances for wales u20's, appearing in commercial adverts on welsh rugby and stating not more than a few months ago before moving to Ldn Irish he stated his intention and ultimate desire to play for the Wales senior side).

Quoting myself, a little weird, but there you go.

I dont see how (as Shingler himself claims) he wanted to (and was in the process of) keep his options open when he was appearing in an advert celebrating the past/present/future of welsh rugby, and then openly stating his desire to play for Wales.

maestegmafia wrote:Sorry Alyn but I don't think the SRU look like muppets at all. The player thought he was eligible he made that clear to the SRU and they selected him.

He was incorrect, yes they could have checked before selecting him. It seemed like a quick decision so obviously wasn't a difficult conclusion to come too.

Lets hope the ruling can be precedent and the WRU don't lose more players that they and the rest of Welsh Rugby have invested in to other countries. Two is enough.

I do because the Loxton and Jarvis cases were played out in public and surely the Scorrish rugby Union would of been aware of it and the reasons why Loxton and Jarvis werent eligibile, they would of also known about Singler playing against France.

They should of checked discreetly BEFORE announcing it in public and making such a hash of things. Where there is an element of doubt, and less be honest there was quite a lot of it, why not play it safe before turning the Welsh public against Shingler in this way?
Players who do what Shingler have done never get forgiven. Dewi Morris is still detested.

Blimey, some folk are taking this very personally.

When's the lynching taking place? I'll just dig out my pitchfork...

AlynDavies wrote:
My gut instinct tells me the Welsh crowd is going to be out for Scotlands blood in Cardiff, after this.

Next month is going to be my first time down in Cardiff for a Scotland v Wales game, I'm a bit scared now!

peachbomb wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
My gut instinct tells me the Welsh crowd is going to be out for Scotlands blood in Cardiff, after this.

Next month is going to be my first time down in Cardiff for a Scotland v Wales game, I'm a bit scared now!

Ah the fans will be fine, Wales and Scotland will kiss and make up in a few weeks and we'll blame it all on the English!

SafeAsMilk wrote:Blimey, some folk are taking this very personally.

When's the lynching taking place? I'll just dig out my pitchfork...

I believe the lynching started within minutes of the advice by the IRB. It is just all with words being aimed and fired like weapons rather than a proper rope hanging from a tree branch.

AlynDavies wrote:

peachbomb wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
My gut instinct tells me the Welsh crowd is going to be out for Scotlands blood in Cardiff, after this.

Next month is going to be my first time down in Cardiff for a Scotland v Wales game, I'm a bit scared now!

Ah the fans will be fine, Wales and Scotland will kiss and make up in a few weeks and we'll blame it all on the English!

Haha, that sounds good to me!

AlynDavies wrote:
He is Welsh, for goodness sake, if the best he can do is saying his mum was born in Scotland, despite being born in Wales and growing up here, then he is really scrapping the barrel, then pointing to a few cousins who he might of once met.
The truth is he was third choice fly half for the Scarlets region, but is still good enough for the Scottish national team. I don't blame him for accepting to play international rugby, he had more chance with Scotland, because they are such a píss poor team.

Anyway you care to frame it, that still highlights the fact that this is a case of "We don't want this nobody..whoever the heck he is... but you still can't have him"

Nice attitude to a young Welsh player who had the affront to have an Scottish mother. In short, he's a Welshman (who few Welshmen honestly know) who is out of favour with some Welshman because he said he mightn't want to be considered a Welshman anymore. All fair enough. National pride is a sensitive subject. But it isn't about rugby and it isn't about holding on to a player who has potential.

AlynDavies wrote: but to be honest Scotland AND Ireland should develop their own players not look to take Wales. I'm glad Wales doesn't have a policy of looking at the professional teams in Ireland and their development teams and try and poach them in this manner, it's disrespectful.

On the "AND Ireland" bit. Do your homework and don't disrespect the wishes of players and their families who know who they are and what they want and didn't step on WRU's toes doing it. How many potential 'poachees' do the Welsh see in Irish development sides? Name them, and if you can it's a certain bet the WRU know about them too and is keeping an eye on possibles. But if you can't, then they don't exist - and principles are so easy to live by when the practicalities never crop up.

Okay Alyn, reading back on my retorts, they might be a little more icy than I had intended!!! Apologies, everyone has a legitmate opinion. But like I said, National Pride is a sensitive subject...and maybe everyone needs to remember that

On the "AND Ireland" bit. Do your homework and don't disrespect the wishes of players and their families who know who they are and what they want and didn't step on WRU's toes doing it. How many potential 'poachees' do the Welsh see in Irish development sides? Name them, and if you can it's a certain bet the WRU know about them too and is keeping an eye on possibles. But if you can't, then they don't exist - and principles are so easy to live by when the practicalities never crop up.

Suppose Rhys Ruddock hadn't been capped by Ireland. Or for a more concrete example you could take his brother Ciaran who (as far as I know) has yet to play in green. Anyway, suppose one or both were coming up through the ranks but weren't senior quality (yet). Had Wales come nipping in, offered them easy debuts and made off with them would you be fine with that? Think it over carefully before answering with all due respect.

Fortunately, players like RR and Ben Morgan are devoted and passionate enough to know where their hearts lie and didn't, as Shingler is trying, go about offering their services to the first country that can and will have them.

SecretFly wrote:On the "AND Ireland" bit. Do your homework and don't disrespect the wishes of players and their families who know who they are and what they want and didn't step on WRU's toes doing it. How many potential 'poachees' do the Welsh see in Irish development sides? Name them, and if you can it's a certain bet the WRU know about them too and is keeping an eye on possibles. But if you can't, then they don't exist - and principles are so easy to live by when the practicalities never crop up.

When was the last time you heard of Wales approaching any player in Irish national age grade teams to switch countries?
Never yet, Ireland seem to do it to us any chance they get. Loxton, Jarvis, Prydie, in the last 2 seasons.

There is nothing wrong with the Ireland U20 team, so why don't the Irish just use the young lads that have come through their system?
Ireland already have more than 3 times the amount of players Wales do, so why try and slit our throats in this manner?

Ireland Number Of Registered Players:153,080
Wales Number Of Registered Players:50,557

Yes of course Ciaran is a more concrete example as Rhys was born in Dublin and therefore falls into Alyn's criteria for unquestionable Nationality.

Knowsit, I'm neither saying I wouldn't feel cheated or be a tad angry. But I also said all that in my initial post. It's the anger that is understandable. You do feel national pride and International sport expresses it and therefore if you think a player shirks all that, you are justifiably annoyed. Of course you are.

But that doesn't justify the tone of the comments coming Shingler's way now. The truth remains that few Welsh rugby fans, if honest, would really know him but it doesn't stop them telling him what he is, what his motives are, what quality of player he is (not nearly good enough for Wales) and what side he was going to align himself to - "urine poor"

Also, I say again it's easy to reflect on WRU's noble approach as regards Irish players when the criteria used to possibly 'poach' them isn't all that prevalent... ie, the traditional emigration route was West to East, not the other way round.

SecretFly wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
He is Welsh, for goodness sake, if the best he can do is saying his mum was born in Scotland, despite being born in Wales and growing up here, then he is really scrapping the barrel, then pointing to a few cousins who he might of once met.
The truth is he was third choice fly half for the Scarlets region, but is still good enough for the Scottish national team. I don't blame him for accepting to play international rugby, he had more chance with Scotland, because they are such a píss poor team.

Anyway you care to frame it, that still highlights the fact that this is a case of "We don't want this nobody..whoever the heck he is... but you still can't have him"

Nice attitude to a young Welsh player who had the affront to have an Scottish mother. In short, he's a Welshman (who few Welshmen honestly know) who is out of favour with some Welshman because he said he mightn't want to be considered a Welshman anymore. All fair enough. National pride is a sensitive subject. But it isn't about rugby and it isn't about holding on to a player who has potential.

AlynDavies wrote: but to be honest Scotland AND Ireland should develop their own players not look to take Wales. I'm glad Wales doesn't have a policy of looking at the professional teams in Ireland and their development teams and try and poach them in this manner, it's disrespectful.

On the "AND Ireland" bit. Do your homework and don't disrespect the wishes of players and their families who know who they are and what they want and didn't step on WRU's toes doing it. How many potential 'poachees' do the Welsh see in Irish development sides? Name them, and if you can it's a certain bet the WRU know about them too and is keeping an eye on possibles. But if you can't, then they don't exist - and principles are so easy to live by when the practicalities never crop up.

'You can't have him'. Wales does not get to make that decision, even if we wanted to. Do you think this is Wales playing hardball? If he's tied then he's tied, we can't 'release' him, just as Fiji couldn't release Nacewa.

SecretFly he has himself said several times that he wanted to play for Wales it was a dream of his so the motives are entirely of his own doing he went public, if he had a desire to play for Scotland then he should have kept his mouth shut.
I have no doubt that we would have been told he harboured a desire to play for England if they had made the approach.

AlynDavies wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: The problem with under 20's is that,that could include players as young as 18 or even 17,and then they shift to another country on the other side of the World...its nuts..

Even if Shingler was selected by Wales,could he really in his heart play for not only a country that he doesnt want to play for,but also a country that has just grassed him up to the cops?

You are kidding?
He is Welsh, for goodness sake, if the best he can do is saying his mum was born in Scotland, despite being born in Wales and growing up here, then he is really scrapping the barrel, then pointing to a few cousins who he might of once met.
The truth is he was third choice fly half for the Scarlets region, but is still good enough for the Scottish national team. I don't blame him for accepting to play international rugby, he had more chance with Scotland, because they are such a píss poor team. but to be honest Scotland AND Ireland should develop their own players not look to take Wales. I'm glad Wales doesn't have a policy of looking at the professional teams in Ireland and their development teams and try and poach them in this manner, it's disrespectful.

AD, you are making yourself look like a horse's arse with this kind of post - pls give it a rest, try and post in a manner which is less offensive and we can have a reasoned debate

Griff wrote:

'You can't have him'. Wales does not get to make that decision, even if we wanted to. Do you think this is Wales playing hardball? If he's tied then he's tied, we can't 'release' him, just as Fiji couldn't release Nacewa.

The 'you can't have him' was my sumation of the reaction coming from irate fans. I'm not talking officaldom, I'm talking reactions from people in this forum. Or to extend it: "Hands off him, but only because of the principle and so that the guy knows he won't get away; and neither will we ever pick him for us because he's not good enough." That kind of thing.

SecretFly wrote:Yes of course Ciaran is a more concrete example as Rhys was born in Dublin and therefore falls into Alyn's criteria for unquestionable Nationality.

Knowsit, I'm neither saying I wouldn't feel cheated or be a tad angry. But I also said all that in my initial post. It's the anger that is understandable. You do feel national pride and International sport expresses it and therefore if you think a player shirks all that, you are justifiably annoyed. Of course you are.

But that doesn't justify the tone of the comments coming Shingler's way now. The truth remains that few Welsh rugby fans, if honest, would really know him but it doesn't stop them telling him what he is, what his motives are, what quality of player he is (not nearly good enough for Wales) and what side he was going to align himself to - "urine poor"

Also, I say again it's easy to reflect on WRU's noble approach as regards Irish players when the criteria used to possibly 'poach' them isn't all that prevalent... ie, the traditional emigration route was West to East, not the other way round.

Actually Welsh fans were aware of him, the problem 2 years ago he had a few games, but last year he wasn't used so much and wasn't given game time so he decided to leave. The Scarlets offered him a development contract and London Irish offered him £46,000 (so I read).
But he wasnt considered anything more than a Scarlets squad player who was down the pecking order.

The first thing I said when this happened was that I didn't really care, I gave a big list of players who are better than him at the moment and most of those are of similar age. My problem is players taking spaces in Welsh squads, having money invested in training them, and then they go swanning off and pretend they aren't Welsh. Wales do produce a silly amount of quality backs, and not many forwards, but I'm sure Scotland and Ireland would be annoyed if Wales started taking their forwards.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

'You can't have him'. Wales does not get to make that decision, even if we wanted to. Do you think this is Wales playing hardball? If he's tied then he's tied, we can't 'release' him, just as Fiji couldn't release Nacewa.

The 'you can't have him' was my sumation of the reaction coming from irate fans. I'm not talking officaldom, I'm talking reactions from people in this forum. Or to extend it: "Hands off him, but only because of the principle and so that the guy knows he won't get away; and neither will we ever pick him for us because he's not good enough." That kind of thing.

Don't think I've seen any Welsh fans on here say he'll never be good enough. Not good enough now, yes. But not 'never'.

Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

maestegmafia wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:The person at the centre of this isnt the SRU, WRU or Shingler. Its the agent giving the lad advice that tried to chance his arm.

No, it's Andy Robinson because and the SRU because they tried to poach someone they knew wasn't eligible, maybe Wales did them a favour, what would of happened if Scotland had played him, then the IRB ruled he wasn't allowed to play?

Scotland could of easily got clarification of the player quietly from the IRB before making themselves look like muppets, in public.

Sorry Alyn but I don't think the SRU look like muppets at all. The player thought he was eligible he made that clear to the SRU and they selected him.

He was incorrect, yes they could have checked before selecting him. It seemed like a quick decision so obviously wasn't a difficult conclusion to come too.

Lets hope the ruling can be precedent and the WRU don't lose more players that they and the rest of Welsh Rugby have invested in to other countries. Two is enough.

maes, what is ti with this 'invested' in stuff? Let me give you an example - my wee lad is 4, passes off both hands, can perform the Leinster-loop seemlessly and has plenty of gas that takes him round the outside of me most time! Now obviously I'm a passionate Scottish father, but he was born in England and is being raised there, and has an English mum. He considers himself Scots as of today (but of course he might change his mind many times before he reaches adulthood). I hope that he is good enough and wants to play for Scotland - but I will happily help him to progress up the south-west of England age-group system until it makes sense for him to travel north on a regular basis - is that "stealing" in your world or just sensibly taking advantage of a system?

AlynDavies wrote:Wales do produce a silly amount of quality backs, and not many forwards, but I'm sure Scotland and Ireland would be annoyed if Wales started taking their forwards.

We have enough backs of our own.... it's your forwards we'd be interested in buying an Irish granny for

I agree with Aslongas there Alyn. Quite a way below the belt to lable Scotland a p*ss poor team.

Knowsit17 wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

What does it matter if Scottish fans knew whether Shingler had Scottish roots or not, Knowsit, how absurd? What matters is that the family clearly did and also the SRU if you read what's been posted much earlier in this thread

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

What does it matter if Scottish fans knew whether Shingler had Scottish roots or not, Knowsit, how absurd? What matters is that the family clearly did and also the SRU if you read what's been posted much earlier in this thread

Was answering Secretfly on how many Welsh people knew that much about Shingler beforehand. Check the previous posts to save me having to explain and repeat myself.

F it, that is to say he thought it hypocritical (I assume) that many Welsh posters were speaking harshly of Shingler when they hadn't known that much about him before this affair.

Whereas I responded (in the post you quoted) that is was a lot more hypocritical of many Scottish posters to be clamouring for Shingler to be allowed to represent them when they'd only just learned who he was.

Phew, please don't make me do that again

AlynDavies wrote:Wales do produce a silly amount of quality backs, and not many forwards, but I'm sure Scotland and Ireland would be annoyed if Wales started taking their forwards.

Jeebus, AD, it's not like the SRU made up his Scottish mum - he qualifies fair&square, this is solely about whether he was ineligible thru having played for Wales U20 vs France U20

If the SRU knew about him then why did they not invite him to play for their U20s why did they wait this long? they must have been aware that eventually he would be tied to Wales.
Could it possibly be that he had told them he wanted to play for Wales.

Cymroglan, Shingler chose to play for U20s, not believing that he was binding himself for his senior career - not much the SRU could do about that?

Knowsit17 wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

From a Scarlets pov: we gave Steve actually a lot of game time last season (roughly the same as Dan Newton) AND we offered him a contract. We just couldn't compete with what LI had to offer, so he went there. We in no way wanted to lose him. If he'd have stayed, he'd have had regular game time at 10 for us in all of September and October this season, instead, we had to buy in Aled Thomas instead. So twas hardly regional ignorance on their behalf, they simply didn't have the funds to better his offer from LI.

Of course he knew he would be tied and also the SRU knew he would be tied to Wales as soon as Wales played a side who's U20s is also their designated side and it was bound to happen sooner or later.
SRU could have made their approach well before Wales played France but they did not.

Adam D wrote:for me, this smacks of lack of national pride.

If he felt he was Scottish, he should have played for Scotland A/ U20.

He didnt.

He is no more Scottish than he is English. He wants to play in front of a huge crowd at international level (nothing wrong with that).

He doesnt care who its for (a lot wrong with that IMO).

I hope he becomes good enough to play for Wales as he obviously wants to play for a national team. Hope he also comes out and explains why he acccepted the Scottish offer.

Are you suggesting he "comes out" because he wants to wear a skirt?

rugbydreamer wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

From a Scarlets pov: we gave Steve actually a lot of game time last season (roughly the same as Dan Newton) AND we offered him a contract. We just couldn't compete with what LI had to offer, so he went there. We in no way wanted to lose him. If he'd have stayed, he'd have had regular game time at 10 for us in all of September and October this season, instead, we had to buy in Aled Thomas instead. So twas hardly regional ignorance on their behalf, they simply didn't have the funds to better his offer from LI.

Fair enough if true, I was under the impression they just weren't picking him enough seeing as the bulk of his gametime was in the LV and not the Pro12. But you'd know more about it than me.

Griff wrote:Don't think I've seen any Welsh fans on here say he'll never be good enough. Not good enough now, yes. But not 'never'.

You can't really judge a layer at 20 years old to be honest.
Robert Howley didn't get his first cap until 26 and look at the career he had!

Shingler hasn't set the World alight, he isn't at the level of George North, Toby Faletau, or Scott Williams, who are of similar age, but with expose to first team rugby and a decent coaching team he may of made the grade.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of Rhys and Ciaran's respective backgrounds in fairness.

I think it's safe to say considerably more Welsh people knew of Steven Shingler before this crapstorm than Scottish people. I never came across anyone at all who knew of Shingler's Scottish side before it emerged in the article. In the first exchanges on these boards I recall a good couple of Scottish posters who claimed to not know who Shingler was prior to his selection. Yet now many of those same posters conveniently want him aboard despite apparently learning of his existence for the first time a week ago.

I've personally known of Shingler since before he left Llanelli. In fact I thought the Scarlets were idiots not to pick him more often as he was doing very well in the Welsh Prem. I thought his leaving was a textbook example of regional ignorance of some academy talent at their disposal. In fact with Priestland now Wales' first choice and Stephen Jones getting on I still think the Scarlets would have done well to hold on to him.

Regardless of his talent and age I still say it was a disgusting and disrespectful gesture of him, given his past pledges, to try and jump ship the second he realized he wasn't just going to walk into the Wales 10 shirt.

From a Scarlets pov: we gave Steve actually a lot of game time last season (roughly the same as Dan Newton) AND we offered him a contract. We just couldn't compete with what LI had to offer, so he went there. We in no way wanted to lose him. If he'd have stayed, he'd have had regular game time at 10 for us in all of September and October this season, instead, we had to buy in Aled Thomas instead. So twas hardly regional ignorance on their behalf, they simply didn't have the funds to better his offer from LI.

Sounds like Shingler just follows money and glory to me. I'm sure someone reasoned the regular starts at 10 in the Scarlets camp and he still turned it down.

Firstly, for WRU & SRU it's just business - nobody try and pretend it's anything but. AD - Wales will try do to Scotland what Scotland have tried to do to Wales, which I don't think is much of a problem at all, because (to my second point) for players themselves, it is usually about who they feel aligned to patriotically. Having unclear guidelines e.g. this tosh with only Wales v France U20 counting as a 'cap' and no others, can damage a player's entire career in terms of who they wanted to play for - see Isa Nacewa. In Shingler's case, though, I have no sympathy, because it looks like he's just playing business as much as the WRU and SRU are (e.g. the advert) ... and that business move seems to be backfiring for him.

I sincerely doubt Wales are going to go for Scotland's throats in Cardiff for this - nobody really knew about him (or cared) before this. I'm not convinced anyone in Wales still cares other than principle, although some Scottish fans wouldn't have minded having him.

But also remember that Shingler has pretty much started for Irish since he joined them. While he would only be playing in the 'less important' games for the Scarlets.

jeez. dont tell me that the Irish have gone and selected him now..The Welsh will really go off.

aucklandlaurie wrote: jeez. dont tell me that the Irish have gone and selected him now..The Welsh will really go off.

Actually it's just about to come out from the press - a little delayed because it's such big news - that after his match today he is making the decision to move to Tajikistan and start a team from scratch there. Of course he'll have to play there for three years first, but he feels it is worth it.

"I've always known about Tajikistan", says Shingler. "I've seen it on TV. And in geography class, once a year, we'd take a trip to Asia - metaphorically, of course - to visit all of these great nations. Absolutely it feels an ok decision to think about maybe taking."

Shingler is planning his emigration imminently. His brother, Aaron Shingler, after also losing a crucial match today, refused to comment.

"Sounds like Shingler just follows money and glory to me"




Seems odd that you suggest that Shingler chose Scotland for the glory. I think we should get a cup for Wales vs Scotland and name it the shingler cup.

This thread should be renamed Schinglers's List.

I am born in Ireland, lived in Ireland but now live in Holland. If i was a good enough player to play for Holland (qualified residency) but not good enough to play for Ireland i would still not play for Holland. I am passionate about Ireland and could not imagine putting on another jersy... especially an Orange one