England V Scotland Predictions

First topic message reminder :

Discuss. I'm going for a 15 - 15 draw again. Really.

Whilst we have never won the 6 Nations, we are still the reigning 5 Nations champions don't forget

England haven't won in their last three attempts at Murrayfield (two losses and a draw). All close games and I've seen nothing to suggest this will be any different.

Talk up "attitude" and "mentality" all you like. Your front five looks lightweight and your backline is inexperienced. It'll be close again - certainly nothing like a procession.

Well Tom Wood is out for the first two games confirmed....

So the back row will proably be...

6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed Paw, I like the attitude and positivity. It is in my traditionally English nature however, to afford a healthy respect to the opposition and try not to come across as an arrogant arse expecting a win. But you are exactly right, that is the attitude England need to foster belief.

History however, always informs the future and as a nation who has previously sought to 'civilise' others, it has always been beholden of us to try and reign in that attitude. It is a legacy i'm afraid, of English decline and acceptance that what we have done around the world has not been universally greeted with respect, and in many instances nor should it have been. But as a national psyche we need to accept and in some instances apologise for what has gone on before, and bloody well move on for once.

Time to teach them some respect for our rugby superiority then. I'm tired of everything being referenced back to centuries old colonialism and warmongery. It's just a game. It's not a metaphor for anything.

That combination could work well. I wonder if Robshaw will get the captaincy in that case, and perhaps switch to 6 when Wood returns. Gives Croft a chance to prove the doubters wrong that he can lead the backrow (in terms of being the experienced hand) and perform the nitty gritty tight stuff to international standard.

I'm looking forward to seeing Morgan at Murrayfield. Assuming Robinson does the right thing and picks Denton at 8, it will be a wonderful contest, and a refreshing break from the conformity merchants we usually have running into eachother in this fixture.

I wonder who will get the bench slot - Dowson or Clark?

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed Paw, I like the attitude and positivity. It is in my traditionally English nature however, to afford a healthy respect to the opposition and try not to come across as an arrogant arse expecting a win. But you are exactly right, that is the attitude England need to foster belief.

History however, always informs the future and as a nation who has previously sought to 'civilise' others, it has always been beholden of us to try and reign in that attitude. It is a legacy i'm afraid, of English decline and acceptance that what we have done around the world has not been universally greeted with respect, and in many instances nor should it have been. But as a national psyche we need to accept and in some instances apologise for what has gone on before, and bloody well move on for once.

The thought has sprung to mind on more than one topic when this poster comments.

If Miteyironpaw represents the bulk of English fans (I know he does not) I would gladly see him shipping off home in a couple of weeks with his ego in tatters.

England are not world beaters, they are not light years ahead of Scotland or any other 6N team and to be honest should not be looking to squash Scotland (particularly away from home) or expect a precession game of rugby.

If the players go into the calcutta cup game expecting a procession they will get a very rude awakening. I seriously doubt the Kiwi's go to Twickers expecting a procession, and if they did they would get a fright too.

To be fair Radge there is some truth in what he is saying, and Scotland were guilty of it as well in the World Cup before the games against Georgia and Romania.

Before those games we had the players coming out and saying how physical Georgia were, how we wouldn't underestimate them and how we were taking nothing for granted. The best interview came from Ali Strokosch, who basically said that he'd had enough of hearing about how big Georgia were, and pointed out that Scotland were both bigger and had better rugby players across the park (with the exception of that brute they had at flanker), and accordingly should expect to win. He was right, and our attitude against Romania was wrong. In the end, with that late flourish, we demonstrated exactly what we should have been doing all game, which was to break up the game and run the Romanians ragged. We got sucked into a stupid pick and drive contest and failed to use the backs properly. When we did, we carved them up.

Now, I obviously think the 50 point prediction above is silly, and the tone of the Paw could use some polish, but I don't object to the sentiment of what he's saying, which is that England have the better players in most positions (true), have far greater rugby resources and facilities (true) and should 9 times out of 10 expect to win against Scotland. One this occassion I think there are some atypical factors that will keep this one very close, but in the same way that I expect Scotland to beat Italy in Rome, I have no issue with the English feeling likewise about us (provided that we prove them wrong of course).

No offence intended obviously.

But look, Scotland is a big proud grown up country on the brink of leaving the union and becoming the marvellous strong independent oil rich place we know it can be (don't forget us now, will you?)

I think all this Cat footing around to protect delicate sensitive souls is frankly more patronising and arrogant than just saying "look, frankly we expect to beat you by a large margin and if we don't, we'll be disappointed". Which should be true, even if it isn't.

miteyironpaw wrote:But look, Scotland is a big proud grown up country on the brink of leaving the union and becoming the marvellous strong independent oil rich place we know it can be

miteyironpaw wrote:No offence intended obviously.

But look, Scotland is a big proud grown up country on the brink of leaving the union and becoming the marvellous strong independent oil rich place we know it can be (don't forget us now, will you?)

I think all this Cat footing around to protect delicate sensitive souls is frankly more patronising and arrogant than just saying "look, frankly we expect to beat you by a large margin and if we don't, we'll be disappointed". Which should be true, even if it isn't.

Easy with the sarcasm - it would be tough times for an independent Scotland, we all know that - not that England is in such a great position anyhew?

Glad we got all of that cleared up then. Scotland leaving the Union however, shouldn't be allowed....

It should be allowed, I have no problem with the people of Scotland getting the chance to vote for it, I just hope they vote against.

Whilst we're on the subject of democracy, I'm moving towards the view that the Scotland team should be based on a democratic vote of all Scottish registered members of 606v2.......

funnyExiledScot wrote:Whilst we're on the subject of democracy, I'm moving towards the view that the Scotland team should be based on a democratic vote of all Scottish registered members of 606v2.......

Think we'd come up with a pretty decent team, fES

....we'd also be completely unaccountable and therefore unsackable, just like the senior figures at the RFU.

You see miteyironpaw, us subjects of the realm can learn a thing or two from our overlords.

Yes there was a hint of irony there given what i'd said before about colonialism but never mind.

I agree I think they should vote against it and fervently hope they do so. Just like the selection of the Scotland team though, I don't think 'democracy' will come in to it!

With Wood out i'd go for 6. Croft 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan 19. Dowson (Croft providing the experience, but wouldn't have been my choice to start). A scoreline of around 16 points apiece would seem reflective of the situation.

The independence issue here is similar to Scotland. The Basque Country and Catalonia always bang on about wanting to leave but if a referendum did come, I'd be pretty confident they'd vote to stay part of Spain. They know they're in a more powerful position lobbying for favourable changes from within rather than going it alone outside the Eurozone and having to fend for themselves.

If the referendum does occur and the Scottish people vote no then we'll probably hear no more of the matter because it's difficult to make any retort other than the voting was rigged.

England keep dropping like flies. Wood gave much better balance to the backrow than Croft. A new look 10, 11, 12, 13, and a new look backrow. There are just so many untried combinations across the park for England. Scotland should have the courage to put in new players like Weir.

I'd be very happy with any sort of win. I wouldn't be THAT hopeful, even if it wasn't for all the injuries. It'll come down to how all the new guys gel. If they play to their best then we have a chance.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd be very happy with any sort of win. I wouldn't be THAT hopeful, even if it wasn't for all the injuries. It'll come down to how all the new guys gel. If they play to their best then we have a chance.

If they gel and play well England should and probably will win. Its a big If tho.

I wouldn't they should win if they gel and play well. You could say the same for Scotland. If they play to their best (which they've generally done at Murrayfield against England for the last few years) then they may well beat England regardless of how well England play. Scotland's best games in the past (feel free to disagree as I'm no expert) has been to compete extremely physically at the breakdown and set piece, defend well and play a good kicking game. Although we've bemoaned England as rubbish in these games, I think they just didn't have the players to counter this play. I don't know if they do yet

funnyExiledScot wrote:That combination could work well. I wonder if Robshaw will get the captaincy in that case, and perhaps switch to 6 when Wood returns. Gives Croft a chance to prove the doubters wrong that he can lead the backrow (in terms of being the experienced hand) and perform the nitty gritty tight stuff to international standard.

I'm looking forward to seeing Morgan at Murrayfield. Assuming Robinson does the right thing and picks Denton at 8, it will be a wonderful contest, and a refreshing break from the conformity merchants we usually have running into eachother in this fixture.

I wonder who will get the bench slot - Dowson or Clark?

I think you are spot on. Theres alot of fans , who are aware of his ability...but are questioning his position as starting 6. He must be aware of this, and its his chance to prove that he can do it.

Good question about Dowson or Clark....Dowson could add plenty of AP and HC experience if it was required so might plump for him...but then Lancaster is a fan of Clark as well....so who knows

So i expect to see the following hoping theres no more injuries....but the players i would like in are in brackets:

1 Corbs
2 Hartley (C)
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Botha (Attwood)
6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Hodgson
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Farrell (Trinder)
14 Ashton
15 Foden

That's the side (with the brackets) I would go for as well were I Lancaster.

Where I would disagree is making Hartley captain. I've been thinking about this for a bit, and whilst everyone keeps banging on about Wood or Robshaw (or Hartley), why not change the emphasis and go for a back. Having heard Ben Foden interviewed a few times recently it got me thinking, why not? He would lead by example, rarely has a bad game, seems to have withstood second season syndrome in the spotlight, has fought off the threat from Mike Brown and in any case could play wing in the event of Mike Brown's form requiring it (and Foden is a better player in my view every day of the week).

If this is genuinely to be a bold new era then why not make a bold choice, rather than just going for another work hard forward. Was England's leadership any worse under Carling than it was under Borthwick, Moody or Easter? Philippe Saint-Andre was a widely respected captain, as was George Gregan. I personally don't see why it has to be a forward.

Yeah Ieuan Evans and Phillipe did very well as Captain from the wing but i prefer my captain nearer the action. Probably from 12 in...but not FH as i think he carrier too much responsiblity as it is.

I just think with Hartley...he's an experienced international now...Captain of a strong club team so it adds up.

I don't think he's a good captain though. When I see the Saints I always think that Wood and Dowson are the real leaders in the pack, not Hartley. I think Mallinder gave him the role hoping it would be the making of him and he'd grow up a bit. I think there's been some limited success there, but what I saw at the weekend was not an international captain.

I think Foden would be an inspired selection personally, and not just because it's my idea

Well Wood is one of my first names on the team sheet if he's fit....but as i said on another thread is an inexperienced player...capable of taking the Captaincy....

Well i guess the Welsh for one could shout you certainly can....

I can see what you're driving at FES and were it not for the game schedule that is on the horizon I would think it worth a go. To my mind however, the next few games are going to be tough grinding affairs, revolving around a forwards first orientated game. That for me, requires a captain in the forwards.

There's something inspiring about having the captain laying it down on the pitch and making the hard yards, rather than a back who does the glory work. Foden has a great temperament from what i've seen, but does he have the attitude of someone like a Carling?

It requires leadership in the forwards, but making a person captain does not make him a leader.

It's just an idea, but I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned more. People keep banging on about the choice between Wood and Robshaw, but Wood is injured and when he comes back, there may be doubts about Robshaw's place in the side. Neither are guaranteed to start. Both may start in the end, but you'd be picking a person who you may want to drop in a few games time.

That's probably why Hartley gets spoken of, being a guaranteed starter and a forward, but in terms of character, he plays like a petulent child. Yes, he gets in the faces of the opposition which is what you want from a hooker, but for me that's not the sort of character you want leading the side. You want someone above all that petty nonsense.

Totally agree about Hartley and I certainly wouldn't want him as Captain. I have suggested Palmer on another thread. He's guaranteed to start, has international experience, played superbly for England most of the time and is a senior player in the team.

Palmer would be an obvious short term replacement (the really obvious one was Nick Easter but that ship has sailed).

Palmer would do a decent job and is a solid option. Not sure he has a long term future in the side though.

I've decided, it has to be Foden. No need to pay me a finders fee RFU, I'll let you save your pennies for the headhunters looking for the top job.

What really fills me with confidence is our front row. Moreso now than ever. Corbisero got his jeer handed to him yesterday by Geoff Cross. I shudder to think what our muscular christian will do to him at Scrum time on the 4th of february.

Agreed - we're missing a trick if we can't dominate the scrum. Stevens was hammered by Treviso yesterday, Marler is known to be a poor technical scrummager and as you say, Corbisiero struggled against Cross yesterday, and Cross is by no means the toughest nut out there (probably the 3rd best scrummager Scotland have after Murray and Low).

Cole is good in the scrum, but Jacobsen should be able to handle him. We should be able to really punish the loosehead side.

The England captaincy question is an interesting one (although less important than it's always made out to be) and Brian Moore has written about it with his usual erudition today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9031421/Englands-cult-of-captaincy-both-illogical-and-harmful.html

The problem with making relatively new caps captain is that there will be enough pressure on the youngsters to play their game without the additional burden of sitting in a suit in front of honking members of HM press.

It's tough. And Scotland know all about this - making Kellock captain last year was always touch and go when most Scotland fans would be hard pressed to claim that Kellock is a shoe-in for either the 4 or 5 shirt. Most Scotland fans would, I think, regard that as a mistake.

The 'Steve Borthwick' problem. You need to be guaranteed to start to be captain. But England's nailed on starters are necessarily kevlar plated captain material.

Agree with FES. Let's make Foden captain. He's got, er, the most attractive girlfriend. That's good enough for me. Highly scientific.

Brian Moore always writes good articles. He is also right in what he is saying, that Robshaw will have a enough to occupy his mind without the burden of the Englans captaincy.

Funny how eager Moore is to declare Scotland favourites for the match because of our "settled" side.

Brian Moore is correct. England's problem is that they have lacked a player that is an automatic choice for selection and then displays leadership qualities. As much as I admired the heart of Moody, he wasn't the best openside for England and his captaincy didn't allow the best balance for the backrow. Basic Borthwick (Lanky Towers) was also questionable as a player and had the bedside manner with refs of a rutting rhino. Easter is another often mentioned but does he provide the best balance to the backrow? Your captain needs to be the first player on the team sheet and then you can allow for a growing into the role. McCaw was not the best tactic for much of his early tenure but has grown into the role now.

I'm warming to Foden as captain. You say we need a forward in there to inspire the troops, but it can be just as lifting havinf your fb cut down the opposition and hadle high blls cleanly, especially somewhere like Murreyfield. Add to that he has a good view of the pitch from where he is and i've also thought that he comes across as very smart and sensible in interviews.

You've got me FODEN FOR ENGLAND CAPTAIN.

Foden has a tendency to go missing when the pressure is on. He makes mistakes being too eager to try to pull a rabbit out of the hat. He's not the kind of composed grafter who can calm a team down and get them back onto a game plan, in my opinion.