Pakistan vs England, 1st Test - Dubai

First topic message reminder :

Early start for this one tomorrow. I hope to catch half hour of play before I head to work.

Bat first is the key on these pitches I feel.

Anyway, thought I'd create the match discussion thread now so that it is there when we wake up. England are playing Test cricket again, I'm going to bed feeling like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Looking forward to the Test and the discussion.

Prior should just go for the jugular now. No point hanging about.

well played matty prior

Prior is scoring runs under pressure in alien conditions yet some people rated him below Dhoni who has hardly scored a Test run outside the subcontinent in the All Time Keppers' rankings a couple of months ago

Some people just will never accept that he can bat and that his average is real.

Well done Prior

rehman finally turned lol

however Ajmal has just relied on subtle variations and pace changes and has been execllent..

Correct me if i am wrong but isnt Prior more recognised as a Batting wicket keeper that as a keeper who can bat a little?

PSW
I slightly disagree, Prior's average is not a true reflection of his batting abilities because he's been asked to go out and slog a few times and got out cheaply when doing the right thing for the team.

This has got to be one of his finest innings though even if he's out now, because of the match position when he came in - blazing a fast hundred when we have 300 on the board is all well and good, but grinding out a 50 in a low scoring innings has more value.

Eire
It was probably true when Prior was brought into the side that he was a batsman first and keeper second, but he's worked hard at becoming a better gloveman and is now generally competent - much moreso than Geraint Jones who preceded him and was a similar type of batsman (though not quite so effective at Test level) but borderline hopeless behind the timbers (hence the frequent calls for him to be replaced by Chris Read).

The only oddity is that Prior is not a more successful ODI player - he usually scores fluently in Tests but gets bogged down or gets out to a wild shot in the shorter form of the game.

Billy,

Not entirely clear fromw hat you said their but hes a keeper who can bat (like Dhoni), not a batsman who keeps wicket because they dont trust the top 6 (like Stewart)
He wasnt picked because of his glovework though, that however improved a lot in the time hes been with England ( during his batting slump it was keeping him in the side)
He'd be in most sensible peoples world XI team.


Dummy,

What you are sayying is that it could be higher? Possibly...but many peopel have tried to argue its articficialy inflated because he bats down the order and only gets soft runs etc and poor Ian Bell has to throw his wicket away blah blah. Fact is hes done the job and his average is still heading up. No other active test keeper has anything like his batting record as a keeper.

PSW
Yes, Prior's average could be a bit higher - I seem to recall a couple of cheap dismissals in the last couple of series when he's been asked to hit out or get out rather than be allowed to play his natural game.

The only reason you could argue his average is inflated is that he has a few not outs because of batting frequently with the tail, but that's unfair because there is a lot of skill required in attempting to shuffle the strike while still scoring.

Ajmal gets Tremlett. time for Prior to have a go now, surely.

Prior's a quality batsman. Always has been, I remember he batted really well (averaged 40odd) in his debut series in Sri Lanka (when we failed miserably in general) although his keeping was shoddy then. Now of course he is arguably the most reliable keeper around in the test circuit (given Boucher's eyes seem to have gone), and of course, still a quality batsman.

Tremlett gone now.

dummy_half wrote:PSW
I slightly disagree, Prior's average is not a true reflection of his batting abilities because he's been asked to go out and slog a few times and got out cheaply when doing the right thing for the team.

sorry mate, but that is applicable to most batsmen batting late middle order. Boucher is one of the prime example who's average beilies his ability. I am yet to see another batsman as unselfish as he is, always doing what is best for the team.

Tremmers gone to Ajmal, another lbw. The end is nigh...

I recognise that he has improved dummyhalf but i have always considered hime a batting wicket keeper. If he was in the side 10 years ago he would be further up the order but there is no need for him to bat up the order as England have a good depth now in Batting (seems a funny thing to say today ).

His average is not inflated because of where he bats either, he is a very confident stroke player that has dug England out of many a deep hole.

Dummy,
Quite. I still dont understand why "not outs" dont count im some peopels minds anyway. Avergae is runs per wicket, he can stay in when the quicks come out to knock the heads off teh tail enders despite as you say being asked to take the meat of the strike and keep the run rate up.
He doesnt have the monster centuries ( becasue he doesnt have 2 days to bat) but he regulalry makes 50's and gives some backbone to teh ENgkland side.
How dispiritng it must be for sides to think they have done all the hard work against the top 6 then have him come out supported by the likes of Swann and Broad.

Eeep Anderson the master blocker ...... lets see how long he can hold out, 200 surely gone now

Biltong
The argument being made by some others was that Prior's average was artificially inflated by his lower order position (by comparison with the 'true' batsmen). I was just raising the counter argument - you are probably right to say that Boucher has a significantly lower average than he merits because of his willingness to go out and slog from ball 1 if the match position requires it.

I'd be over the moon if Jimmy A could replicate his high score of 34 here...

Prior must be one of the most underrated players in world cricket..

averages 45 with the bat, and one of the best gloveman now, he is a serious cricketer, and could easily bat in the top 6...and would probably get into pretty much all of the international sides as a batsman alone then you add in the keeping factor.

Well, I'll tell you I am jealous that he defected to England.

Whats good about this innings is that he hasnt just creamed it and won the lottery, theres only been 3 boundaries. This is proper batting with a slight acceleration in risk to account for the low order batsmen being unlikley to hang around.
Quality stuff.

Biltong
Wasn't Prior only something like 13 years old when he moved here?

On current form though you're welcome to Strauss, Trott and Pietersen.

Agree entirely with all the praise for Prior.

Quite important for England to hang on as long as possible and give themselves two spells with the new ball when they come out to bowl.

Current form?? One innings you mean KP was in scintillating form in his last however many Tests.

I love the good old English knee jerk reaction.

Oh, and Biltong is just pulling your chain dummy, that crafty Saffer has been up to no good all day

dummy_half wrote:Biltong
Wasn't Prior only something like 13 years old when he moved here?

On current form though you're welcome to Strauss, Trott and Pietersen.

Dummy half, I am quite happy with our batting line up, but Boucher do not have much time left, so there for Prior amongst that lot is the biggest loss to SA cricket in my view.

As for when he moved to England, have no idea. All it means is if he moved at 13, I must add his parents to my list of who I want to hit.

Mike, referring to our conversation earlier, Prior has had such success because he has played straight to the spinners, particularly Ajmal, for the majority of his innings. That is absolutely key on these slow tracks.

Fists of Fury wrote:Oh, and Biltong is just pulling your chain dummy, that crafty Saffer has been up to no good all day

Geez Fists, i am capable of providing compliments as well. Seriously. The fact is I do rate Prior quite highly. Unfortunately that is about it.

If Prior can steer England to 200. That will be a massive effort from him.

192 all out. Ajmal with 7...without actually turning a single ball. Poor batting, but we did rescue the situation a little bit.

Now then, England's bowlers, the batsmen have left it completely down to you. We simply have to blast Pakistan out for sub-250 otherwise we are staring right down the barrel.

Big, big passage of play coming up now.

The one thing I have always thought about playing spinners is to have a "get out" shot, where if they are building the pressure that you can play a shot that you feel comfortable with to get off strike or to hit a boundary, and take the pressure of you and put it back on the bowler. For Prior that might be down the ground but for Mogs it could be the sweep. Nothing wrong with that. If you get out to it occasionally then so be it but it is even worse to be bogged down at 1 an over and then you will play a shot you aren't comfortable with and will increase the chance of getting out.

Billy you jinx

Anderson gone and England all out for 192, so just less than 100 added for the final 3 wickets. Good comeback from a desperately poor start, but still quite clearly Pakistan's day so far.

JDizzle, it seems England batsmen did have a "get out" shot, but they misinterpreted the meaning of "get out"

Perhaps you should call it the "break free" shot??

I did think that when I was typing it perhaps I could word it better! But that's what I have always been taught to call it but maybe "break free" shot would be better! Anyway, the point still stands. I don't think Mogs was wrong to sweep, if he keeps getting out that way then he should stop playing it but not yet if he feels more comfortable with that than coming down the wicket and hitting straight.

And great knock Matthew.

good start from Jimmy, right on the money.

Fists of Fury wrote:Mike, referring to our conversation earlier, Prior has had such success because he has played straight to the spinners, particularly Ajmal, for the majority of his innings. That is absolutely key on these slow tracks.

I disagree. Prior hit a couple of sweeps and played many nudges off his legs. Hayden swept his way to 500runs in India a while ago. Morgan plays the sweep very very well (he can also hit down the ground), I simply don't accept this concept of there only being one way to play spin.

England a touch short with their lengths so far IMO

Mike Selig wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Mike, referring to our conversation earlier, Prior has had such success because he has played straight to the spinners, particularly Ajmal, for the majority of his innings. That is absolutely key on these slow tracks.

I disagree. Prior hit a couple of sweeps and played many nudges off his legs. Hayden swept his way to 500runs in India a while ago. Morgan plays the sweep very very well (he can also hit down the ground), I simply don't accept this concept of there only being one way to play spin.

I didn't say there was one way. I said that it is the most risk free way of playing spin when your team is in the mire - which it undeniably is. On a slow pitch where the ball might hold up on you, the sweep to the wrong ball can be very dangerous. I guess part of that comes down to batsmens judgement too.

Hafeez a lucky boy with a couple of play and misses, we need a breakthrough and soon, though.

Broad into the attack, Tremlett's rhythm not great, let's see what Broady can do.

decent start from Broad

Desperately need a breakthrough. If they reach say 70 without loss then we are in real trouble.

Few overs of Swann before the end?

Well not a great day for England , eh?

Not that I saw any of it live - been out for much of the day , TV here in Melbourne is showing this match on a five hour plus delay so I'm just now seeing the morning rout

... but this seems to confirm what I've read on here , that the ball wasn't doing much and England just played poor shots. So it may have been just a "bad hair day" rather than a sign that they are doomed to a three-nil defeat... they will need to play with a bit more conviction second time around though if they are going to get back into this one.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the number 1 ranking thing?

1-0 Pakistan, barring some miracle. Simple as that. England need to vastly improve their shot selection and their mindset towards the Pakistan spinners. They aren't exceptional (Ajmal is very good), so there is no excuse for throwing wickets away like that.

Not giving up that easily are you, Fists? Pitch looks good enough for a couple more days at least so the real task now is surely to at least match whatever Pakistan make in their first innings ...

Not saying that will be easy , but this team has proved quite resilient over the last couple of years. Big fightback called for , rather than "miracle".

Agree with Alfie, over the last few years this England side has had it's back against the wall and it always comes out fighting. A couple of early wickets tomorrow and Pakistan will wobble.

As someone else said they are going through alot of turmoil at the moment and you have to wonder how strong they are mentally.

I think England's 190 odd was a decent total after being in a hole. England will know that Pakistan's batting is brittle and 50/0 can quickly be 80/6.

I was disappointed that Finn wasn't included. In the recent ODI series in India, he showed that he had wicket taking ability on these kind of pitches.

Prior could quite easily bat at 4. His knock was brilliant.

Ajmal magical spell of bowling.

Did Ajmal bowl this new delivery he'd been talking about? I've been in work since 8 and I can't see it mentioned on the BBC page.

Just wonder if that got in the batsmens heads when playing Ajmal.

hampo171 wrote:Did Ajmal bowl this new delivery he'd been talking about? I've been in work since 8 and I can't see it mentioned on the BBC page.

Just wonder if that got in the batsmens heads when playing Ajmal.

His new delivery is just a round armed top spinner. Not threatening.