Pakistan vs England, 1st Test - Dubai

First topic message reminder :

Early start for this one tomorrow. I hope to catch half hour of play before I head to work.

Bat first is the key on these pitches I feel.

Anyway, thought I'd create the match discussion thread now so that it is there when we wake up. England are playing Test cricket again, I'm going to bed feeling like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Looking forward to the Test and the discussion.

Oh gawd - gloating Aussies lining up already

Just have to grin and bear it

Well done Pakistan ... England have some thinking to do.

PSW can live happy in the knowledge that he was indeed right prior to the series, when we all shouted him down. It has been proven that England batsmen still can't play on Asian pitches

Well that's that then

1-0 and almost complete humiliation.

10 wicket defeat completely humalitating...

full credit to ajmal and pakistan on a superb performance, however that is totally unacceptable..

What a remarkable game, a thrilling test match and a superb advert between 2 great cricketing nations. Hats off to England who had a never say die attitude. To win it the way they did was quite superb.

God i enjoy reliving the 2005 2nd Ashes Test at Edgbaston.

How did we get on?

also a real hammer blow, the fact that bell is supposes to be brilliant against spin, and he got done by the ajmal doosra twice when only in single figures.

Well let's hope that is the only blip in this series!!

Good news is that England can and will do better in the 2nd test. No doubt a 2nd spinner is needed. Again for me the selectors fell into the trap of picking the side that served them so well in 'swinging' conditions. That is why Broad did better than Tremmers and Anderson because he can bowl length. Drop Tremmers and bring in Panesar.

The batsmen need to work on shot selection for sure. The first innings was the worst I had seen probably since 52 all out in the Indies. If the shot is not there to be played, don't play it. I know Nasser banged his drum about the 'leave' he may need to bang it again.

Basic ratings for England:

Englands top order (- Trott) - 1
Trott - 6
Prior - 7
Broad - 4
Swann - 7
Tremlett - 2
Anderson - 4

I still think England can get a draw from the series. I know that may not be most peoples favourite outcome, but for me it is a good result given the conditions. I think the lessons could set them in good stead for the India series later in the year.

Legend, I predicted a draw at the beginning, so would be more than happy with taking a 1-1 from here.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:Bopara has become a much better player since he's been out of the side.

Morgan hasn't become a much better player since he's been in the team though. And he can't bowl.

Still a better player than Bopara. And he can field.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:Bopara has become a much better player since he's been out of the side.

Of course, this test has clearly shown that England have started the long downhill slide. It's time to get rid of the deadwood: Strauss cannot buy a run anymore, Pietersen has shown he's not up for the challenge, Bell can only score runs against poor sides, Morgan's not good enough for test cricket. Swann's past it and Tremlett won't do anything on these flat pitches.

Time to bring in the youth. Hales for Strauss, Bopara, Taylor and Buttler should be given a chance, Borthwick or Panesar for Swann and Woakes in for Tremlett.

Or alternatively don't just ignore this is one bad test after a very good couple of years, regroup, trust the same side possibly modulo Finn for Tremlett, and bounce back like England have on a few occasions already.

As you may have guessed, I'm not really into knee-jerk reactions.

England have been poor, Pakistan have been excellent. End of.

Similar post to the one I made earlier. Its the case though that everyones expecting Inidia to make these same knee jerk changes ( finaly) and critisizing them for not doing it sooner. There has to come a time when players are shuffled out, getting that right requires an element of luck I guess.
I certainly feel its not wrong to start questioning Strauss after this series. Vaughn hung around like a bad smell for a long time when he was shot by virtue of being Captain marvellous. I dont want to see that again for a guy who averages 40 in his career and 30 in the last couple of years.

Of course he may well go and bang 4 centuries and become the new Alistrair Cook. He aint getting dropped in this series thats for sure.

I have never suggested knee-jerk reactions from India. I have said they should have dropped Laxman (whatever his record against the West Indies) after the second test, based on how he had played in England and Australia, as much as how many runs he scored.

Agree on Strauss.

Agreed FOF. I would welcome a draw too. England have a habit of bouncing back from poor defeats. After Edgbaston in 2009 against the Aussies and Perth in 2010. After Lords against Pakistan in 2010. So we know this team has a strong belief in themselves.

i know its only one game...

however strauss has only score one 50, in his last 12 test innings, that is very worrying


and ive heard for people calling for KP's head, im sorry but he had a fantastic 2011 in test cricket, and has only had 2 innings this year, he has to stay!

Don't think they'll be dumping KP

Or Bell

Or Strauss

... nor should they (even if they had a convincing alternative , ie not Bopara , on the bench )

It is indeed One game... Expect an improvement next week.

One thing we now know for sure - this series is not going to be easy

cricketfan90 wrote:i know its only one game...

however strauss has only score one 50, in his last 12 test innings, that is very worrying


and ive heard for people calling for KP's head, im sorry but he had a fantastic 2011 in test cricket, and has only had 2 innings this year, he has to stay!

Didnt realise it had been that bad. Considering thats been against Sri Lanka, India and Pakistan none of who are excatly initmidating in the opening bowler partnerships it really does have to be described as a bad return.
All players go through slumps. His has strecthed over two years now, and continues. He sunder no threat in this series. After it it may be a tough call to "rest him" and try out a new opener in tests, then question his captaincy. As with Morgan there should be a lot rideing on his future in the next two games, I wouldnt like to think he'll get a tiotally free ticket based purely on the results of 2010/2011 under his leadership.

Of course we do then go back to the question of the demands of being England captain and drop off in performances that result. Would it hammer Cook to captain two sides and open the batting?

Cook's stats of 5 innings of 5 or less in his last 7 innings is a very worrying one, too.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:i know its only one game...

however strauss has only score one 50, in his last 12 test innings, that is very worrying


and ive heard for people calling for KP's head, im sorry but he had a fantastic 2011 in test cricket, and has only had 2 innings this year, he has to stay!

Didnt realise it had been that bad. Considering thats been against Sri Lanka, India and Pakistan none of who are excatly initmidating in the opening bowler partnerships it really does have to be described as a bad return.
All players go through slumps. His has strecthed over two years now, and continues. He sunder no threat in this series. After it it may be a tough call to "rest him" and try out a new opener in tests, then question his captaincy. As with Morgan there should be a lot rideing on his future in the next two games, I wouldnt like to think he'll get a tiotally free ticket based purely on the results of 2010/2011 under his leadership.

Of course we do then go back to the question of the demands of being England captain and drop off in performances that result. Would it hammer Cook to captain two sides and open the batting?

I guess the other question is, who's stepping up to replace Strauss IF he was to be dropped. It's worth noting that he has recovered from a major slump before, picking up a good ton in Napier while on the verge of being dropped.

FoF,

With Cook thats not really an extnded bad run , hardly anything to panic over yet.

Kiwi,

That is a question, hence the idea of resting him ( all players are rotated out) and trying out one of the kids there, see how they get on, then offering him the pistol and a quiet room. I really dont know how you go about replacing ytour capatin when you arent sure about their place these days. Its differnet to Ponting, if he lost it it would be his place in the side not his captaincy thats under question.

With regards to his previous slump, he was dropped after a run of about 2 years of mediocre or poor series, and given a specific rebuilding to work on to regain his place. He did that.
Could he be rested for the Sri Lanka tour and sent away to work on his batting? I doubt he will be but it would give England a chance to assess potential replacements and him the opportunity to work his problems out somewhere other than the middle and come back recharged if the coaches and he thinks its right.

I doubt they will do that though, and he'll probably continue to soldier on till they are forced to replace him through injury or after the next Ashes series. I certainly dont imagine him quitting of his own accord, and pushing him out would be very hard to do given where he took England.

Again this is all assuming that England flum,p the rest of this series and dont blow Pakistan out the water in the next two tests. Lets not forget SA's fartattack a few weeks ago against the might of Sri Lanka.

I had lots of work this week, and India kindly obliged by getting smashed inside 3 days. Just couldn't watch much of this one either, and I haven't missed much.
Poor from England, the bating just lacked application in both innings. Bell needs some quick fix on dealing with the Doosra, and the rest will have to show greater application.
And they missed Monty P's batting, he has shown in the past how to save a match and show the way to win the series then. And of course he could even chip in with a few overs as well.
The loss has to hurt the players, but England has reached this point by showing a great deal of common sense, and this defeat just doesn't mean that has to be given up.
If the track for the next test would offer a lot to spinners, then bring Monty in, otherwise go with the same side.

apparently monty at lunch, was bowling on one of the pitches, surrounded by all the coaches.....apparently it wasnt just your regular bowling session, apparently he could come in for tremlett.

Well we were well and truly outplayed in this one, hats off to a very impressive Pakistan side but I'm really confused as to what happened to our batsmen, it's like we've gone back in time. Didn't think we did this anymore but we will bounce back I am sure. Also, having Monty in the side wouldn't have made a jot of difference. I'm happy with our bowling which with a bit more luck would have had them out for under 300 which would have been a very good return. this game was lost in the first hour of the first day.

Carrotdude wrote:Well we were well and truly outplayed in this one, hats off to a very impressive Pakistan side but I'm really confused as to what happened to our batsmen, it's like we've gone back in time. Didn't think we did this anymore but we will bounce back I am sure. Also, having Monty in the side wouldn't have made a jot of difference. I'm happy with our bowling which with a bit more luck would have had them out for under 300 which would have been a very good return. this game was lost in the first hour of the first day.

Hi Carrot - pretty much go along with that.

Not so much a bad team selection but a bad team performance, particularly by the batsmen. Saw a bit of the pre-lunch play today. I don't always concur with Botham but did this morning: ''England didn't know whether to defend or attack, and ended up doing neither.''

We need to work out a plan against Ajmal very quickly indeed. I sense perhaps the batsmen underestimated Pakistan and didn't have a specific game plan to deal with the bowlers.

It boils down to one thing. Complacency. Our batters walked over there and thought "we've done the hard work against India, let's relax." We normally lose at least one test every series (Pak 2010, Aus 2010, SA 2009, Aus 2009) but usually come back afterwards. That is what will happen. We underestimated a dangerous and resurgent Pakistan team.

1-1 in the series loses us 2 rating points, 2-1 England keeps us where we are.

I think the way to play Ajmal is to attack him early on, take a calculated risk. It was pretty noticeable in both innings that he didn't like being hit. First innings when Swann wacked him a couple of times he was taken out of the attack quickly, second innings Trott hit him for a couple of fours and back went long-on, deep mid-wicket. If England can get on top of him early in his spell, they could then just milk him around for a few singles per over I think.

England in recent years have been very good at bouncing back from defeats as Duty says, hopefully we'll do the same here. I believe our bowlers are good enough to get 20 wickets (with a bit more luck we could have had Pakistan out for much less her), it's now upto the batsmen to show their worth.

Whilst England suffered a rare loss, fair play to Pakistan for being excellent. England don't have to panic.

I would like to make a comment often made by the English media. Bell, Pietersen, Bopara etc are good players off spin.

Whist they play spin well in England, playing spin in Asia is slightly different. In England, pitches don't usually spin until days 4 and 5. Additionally English pitches have more bounce, so playing off the back foot is easier.

If you look in this match, it was a slow pitch, and as with most sub-continental spinners(Ajmal, Harbhajan, Mendis etc), they bowl much quicker than English spinners. Ajmal had the English pinned to the crease line. Due to this, it's very difficult to play off the back foot, as the ball skids on and you will be an LBW candidate.

Sub-continental spinners often bowl straighter, Swann bowls an attacking line out side off, therefore if there isn't much turn, he'll be picked off. Ajmal makes you play to aiming at the stumps. This is not a criticism of Swann, as his record speaks for itself.

In Asia, spinners should bowl more at the stumps, as the variable bounce, sometimes even from day 1, will lead to plenty of LBWs.

Why didn't England play Finn. I know this hasn't much to do with the result becuase at the end of the day, the batsmen went out there with an arrogance and in just three days later they're going back to their hotels with their tails between their legs.

But for me Finn is not the bowler everyone claims he is. Yes, when he was first on the scene he was slightly expensive. However, he has gone away and found some extra pace and now bowling consistently at 90mph. After his bowling in the ODI's in India, he proved he could bowl line and length ball after ball, and could take wickets on pitches similar to the ones in Dubai. Now don't get me wrong, Tremlett didn't do allot wrong, but, as Michael Holding said on the matter, I would rather a bowler take 5-100 than 0-40, and that's where I stand on the matter.

I wouldn't change anything in regards to team selection (apart from bringing in Finn), I don't believe in bringing Panesar in as a 2nd spinner, because these pitches just don't seem to offer too much to the spinners. The next test match is crucial for England, and it's time once gain for the batsmen to show us why they have been one of the crucial components to England reaching no.1 in the world.

Its being reported that the stadium in Abu Dhabi is more open than Dubai, and therefore the ball swings, so I would like to see Finn get into the side. Swinging deliveries at 150-155kph would be great viewing!

Demon and mad 4 I think youre spot on there, the key point being you have to play. Even more so now you cant get away with hiding the bat behind the pad and since hawkeye made umpires more willing to give lbws. The England players just arent comfortable playing the ball, when they defend it they worry they should be scoring and when they go to hit it they hesitate thinking they shouldnt be risking their wicket. On a pitch like this against spinners who barely move it they really shouldnt have that level of anxiety leading to indecisive strokes. Either attack or defend, but commit.

I heard that the Abu Dhabi track was even more dead than this one :O

Maybe we will score 200?

If thats the case then Finn has to play, rough them up a bit. I think what has been said earlier about getting at Ajmal early is spot on. I have seen it before, I believe SA took him on early, and he is the type of bowler who when going for runs, let's his head drop and is rarely seen for the game

Totally agree, I would play Finn for Tremlett (the extra pace takes the pitch out of the equation somewhat) and I'd look to unsettle Ajmal from the off. We simply cannot allow him to bowl to us at 1 run per over, the pressure builds too much and allows him to mix up his doosras nicely.

finn for tremlett is the only change i would even be considering , panesar just doesn't have the variations to be successful on these pitches and our seam bowling looked pretty good tbh

the fact that people are even suggesting bopara could come in to improve our batting just shows how bad we were

Bopara shouldn't be anywhere near a test place. I'd rather someone like James Taylor get a go, Bopara has only proven consistantly that he cannot score big against the big teams.

The encouraging (!) thing for me , in an odd way, was to see from the second innings that it wasn't just Ajmal ... England generally just batted badly

I know that seems very negative , but I think I'd rather be relying on some possibly rather rusty batsmen getting their heads and feet straight after a sharp wake up call than having to sweat over a "mystery bowler".

Don't get me wrong : Ajmal is a very good bowler , he performed well in this match , did Bell beautifully , and will need to be played with care. I just don't think he presents the level of threat of Warne at his top , or Murali on his own pitches ... sensible , careful but positive batting , which is hardly beyond a group of players who have pretty decent records over the last few years , can deal with him. There was little of that in this match , and I refuse to believe that all these players have "lost it" overnight.

We all knew playing Pakistan in these conditions would be a totally different experience to taking them on at home , and it now seems clear that their recent renaissance is not a mirage. So , two tough matches to come. Isn't that what we want for Test Cricket?

I think the team will stay the same unless the pitch for the next match appears certain to spin right from the start.

Good start to day 4, England yet to lose a wicket

They carry on like this they could bat the whole day.

Flat Asian pitches, killing test cricket

Still no wickets down.

Fists of Fury wrote: I'm going to bed feeling like a kid on Christmas Eve.

I bet you woke up today feeling like a kid who'd wet the bed and had his presents taken back by his abussive step father.

not far off! Though I did appreciate the lie in, given that I didn't have to get up half hour early to watch a bit of Test cricket

You sound like Vaughn now, "theres plenty of positives we can take form this experience" etc after getting pummeled again on an Asian tour.

Should Andrew Strauss be dropped? That seams to be the big talking point at the moment.

Cook and Trott opening, bell at 3

Gregers wrote:Should Andrew Strauss be dropped?

No.

I wouldn't say that was a talking point. You have a few morons saying he should be dropped, but that is about it. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that Strauss has been integral to England's rise, and the display of the bowlers in the field shows that he still plays a pivotal role in that sense. Runs are the only thing he is missing of late, and it will take many more crushing defeats before we can seriously debate this matter.

Let me elaborate a bit further: if you drop Strauss:

1) Who replaces him? Bopara? Do you really think Bopara will score significantly more runs? Or are we back to arguing that England need 5 bowlers after twice being bowled out for under 200?
2) Who captains?

Anyway, the point is moot. England may, I say may feel Morgan isn't performing and Bopara will be a better shout. I doubt it. They may feel Finn's pace and bounce, or Onions's wicket to wicket style, or a second spinner is a better bet on the slow pitches than Tremlett, but against I doubt it.

England have picked their best 11 out there. The problem was England either failed to come up with a coherent game plan, or failed to put it into action. Flower and co will know which and will work on it in time for the next test. Now is no time to panic.

I think Finn for Tremlett is the only realistic change we can expect, Mike. It may well not happen, but it would be no surprise. The selectors and Strauss may opt to go with the additional pace that Finn brings, almost taking the pitch out of the equation.

I wouldn't agree with it either Fists, but surely his place must be in jeopardy especially if he were to fail again in the 2nd test?

Personally I think Strauss is still quality but he should probably step down after the SA tests in the summer