Steven Jones the Welsh 10.

First topic message reminder :

Has he, Steven Jones that is, joined his mate Shane Willliams and retired from international rugby?(By announcing his retirement from international rugby)

Or is the reason that he is not in the Welsh squad for the 6ns Warren Gatlands idea not to select him?

He may not have the speed he once had but his goal kicking is far more reliable than Priestlands, and Dan Biggar.

Do you think that not selecting him for the Welsh team is a good idea or a bad idea?

haha no, and im probably alone in this by the looks of it, but i think when 3 players fail at the same hurdle, perhaps its just a coincidence, or as I think, its a coaching thing.

I don't see it as being Jenks' fault though, clearly when they were nailing their kicks against sides like Fiji, it isn't a technical thing, tis a mental thing. Sports psychologist to the fore, please

see, this is what (and ill hate myself for bringing it up but here it goes....) henson has, that self-confidence that he will just nail the chance he gets to make a difference.

Matthew Morgan seems to have that swagger* (*for lack of a better word).

nah I'll agree with on that re:Henson, comfort, he certainly seems to have unwavering faith in his ability. It's something more of the Welsh lads need imo.

yeah, i call it the ROG gene, he'll take a pounding all game long, but you can see it in his face, if theres the chance to step up with all the pressure on you to make that kick for your team, he's there, and invariably nails it over.

look at that in comparison with the welsh flyhalves who just seem to not be able to hack it. although, the youngsters coming through all over the park dont seem to have the inhabitions the older generation have, hopefully that ability to deal with pressure will come through professionalism if we cant find a quicker cure.

flyhalffactory wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:Sorry Dreamer, I suggest you look at it again, the drop was on, it was on his correct foot, Jones was in the pocket, the play was there for the taking. He waved his backs into running positions as Phillips looked to pass back into the pocket and ran to the left taking teh ball into contact and turning it over. Even the commetators couldnt understand it.

At least if he had made the attempt I wouldnt be so upset bit to not try when it was on was criminal. Unless your a scarlets fan of course as they all seem to have "missed" the incident.

Tycroes
Dreamer is 100% correct the DG was never 100% on........ Phillips distribution pass was high on his left side and by the time he turned to drop R/Footed, the Argentinan players already offside was on him.

Consider Priestlands missed kicks and Hook even worse performance against SA and the missed kicks thereafter, and taking into account Priestlands rather dire new term, and Hook was poor in the 1st game against NGD, and was been dropped from the 22 in such an important return against NGD, and for this weekend............. to-date he has been poor for the French, often starting at 10 then been shunted to O/Centre or dropped altogether.

There are a number of players who can feel agrieved not to be on the squad

15 Henson? out Ospreys Barry Davies in
13 Hook? out Scarlets Warren in
10 Stephen Jones or Stefan Jones
Brew playing well this season

Gatland is starting off like he did in 2008 picking players on reputation not form GROAN

Heya FHF, Sorry disagree, Im sure you mean French players not the Argentinians since we didnt play them, I guess the 13-12 defeat is still burned into the scottish psyche the french line discipline was actually very good so I dont think they were offside, wellies bottled it pure and simple. Just have a look at the 72nd minute. I have tried to look for a link as I only have it on my sky+ but there is no full match link I can find

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Jones also missed the conversion from the Phillips try. Missed the Penalty against Ireland in 2008, missed 2 against England at the millennium last year that would have won us the game, against SA in 2010 I could go on, those are just off the top of my head.

Yep, mention a handful of negatives and make no mention of any positives, that's how you evaluate a player.

The post i was replying to was questioning whether Stephen Jones had ever lost Wales games by "bottling it".

These were example, please dont try and quote me out of context.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:Sorry Dreamer, I suggest you look at it again, the drop was on, it was on his correct foot, Jones was in the pocket, the play was there for the taking. He waved his backs into running positions as Phillips looked to pass back into the pocket and ran to the left taking teh ball into contact and turning it over. Even the commetators couldnt understand it.

At least if he had made the attempt I wouldnt be so upset bit to not try when it was on was criminal. Unless your a scarlets fan of course as they all seem to have "missed" the incident.

Tycroes
Dreamer is 100% correct the DG was never 100% on........ Phillips distribution pass was high on his left side and by the time he turned to drop R/Footed, the Argentinan players already offside was on him.

Consider Priestlands missed kicks and Hook even worse performance against SA and the missed kicks thereafter, and taking into account Priestlands rather dire new term, and Hook was poor in the 1st game against NGD, and was been dropped from the 22 in such an important return against NGD, and for this weekend............. to-date he has been poor for the French, often starting at 10 then been shunted to O/Centre or dropped altogether.

There are a number of players who can feel agrieved not to be on the squad

15 Henson? out Ospreys Barry Davies in
13 Hook? out Scarlets Warren in
10 Stephen Jones or Stefan Jones
Brew playing well this season

Gatland is starting off like he did in 2008 picking players on reputation not form GROAN

Heya FHF, Sorry disagree, Im sure you mean French players not the Argentinians since we didnt play them, I guess the 13-12 defeat is still burned into the scottish psyche the french line discipline was actually very good so I dont think they were offside, wellies bottled it pure and simple. Just have a look at the 72nd minute. I have tried to look for a link as I only have it on my sky+ but there is no full match link I can find

TO

you are right, a player like O'Gara or Wilkinson, Dan Carter or Barry John would have kicked it. We knew Jones wouldnt be able to do it as he has failed to do so so many times before

TycroesOsprey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:Sorry Dreamer, I suggest you look at it again, the drop was on, it was on his correct foot, Jones was in the pocket, the play was there for the taking. He waved his backs into running positions as Phillips looked to pass back into the pocket and ran to the left taking teh ball into contact and turning it over. Even the commetators couldnt understand it.

At least if he had made the attempt I wouldnt be so upset bit to not try when it was on was criminal. Unless your a scarlets fan of course as they all seem to have "missed" the incident.

Tycroes
Dreamer is 100% correct the DG was never 100% on........ Phillips distribution pass was high on his left side and by the time he turned to drop R/Footed, the Argentinan players already offside was on him.

Consider Priestlands missed kicks and Hook even worse performance against SA and the missed kicks thereafter, and taking into account Priestlands rather dire new term, and Hook was poor in the 1st game against NGD, and was been dropped from the 22 in such an important return against NGD, and for this weekend............. to-date he has been poor for the French, often starting at 10 then been shunted to O/Centre or dropped altogether.

There are a number of players who can feel agrieved not to be on the squad

15 Henson? out Ospreys Barry Davies in
13 Hook? out Scarlets Warren in
10 Stephen Jones or Stefan Jones
Brew playing well this season

Gatland is starting off like he did in 2008 picking players on reputation not form GROAN

Heya FHF, Sorry disagree, Im sure you mean French players not the Argentinians since we didnt play them, I guess the 13-12 defeat is still burned into the scottish psyche the french line discipline was actually very good so I dont think they were offside, wellies bottled it pure and simple. Just have a look at the 72nd minute. I have tried to look for a link as I only have it on my sky+ but there is no full match link I can find

oooops not the Pumas god!!, the "French" Midfield were running well before "old two-step" decided to pass above the shoulder level of wellies..... look at it again tycroes, not saying that he shouldnt have gone for the DG but it wasnt as easy as some posters on here make out

But if you are making decisions based on WC performance well then Wellies at 86% was more accurate than Priestland and wayeeeee ahead of Hook, yet nothing is said about that.

Personally Jones, Henson, Hook all don't deserve to be in the thoughts of Gatland and the myth of Gavin and his natural talent (or even worse Hook and his natural talent) just dont hold water as the last match of any note was against the Irish yrs ago and he was pretty poor in that............. since then not even a string of two matches to reveal his natural skill

flyhalffactory wrote:But if you are making decisions based on WC performance well then Wellies at 86% was more accurate than Priestland and wayeeeee ahead of Hook, yet nothing is said about that.

Accurate at what Goal kicking?

Might well have been but Wales don't, didn't function with him at Flyhalf, they go sideways lack incision, direction and patience.

Wales looked a much more fluent team with Priestland at the helm.

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:But if you are making decisions based on WC performance well then Wellies at 86% was more accurate than Priestland and wayeeeee ahead of Hook, yet nothing is said about that.

Accurate at what Goal kicking?

Might well have been but Wales looked a much more fluent team with Priestland at the helm.

thats more like it, spot on.

re the dg attempt, it may not have been as easy as it could, but he should have attempted it. it was blwydi criminal not to in that position.

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:But if you are making decisions based on WC performance well then Wellies at 86% was more accurate than Priestland and wayeeeee ahead of Hook, yet nothing is said about that.

Accurate at what Goal kicking?

Might well have been but Wales don't, didn't function with him at Flyhalf, they go sideways lack incision, direction and patience.

Wales looked a much more fluent team with Priestland at the helm.

Did you not watch the Australia match in the Autumn then?

Because the bits in bold, that's exactly what we did. And guess who was at the helm? oh yeah, Rhys P. Not denying he got us going in the WC, but he's certainly not all that brilliant either. And of course Wales functioned with Stevo at fly half, how else would we have won 2 GS's? (and yes I know Hooky started some games at 10, but Stevo played in all of them too).

I'm all for debating the merits of a player, but I don't half get irritated when posters can only either see just the positives, or just the negatives.

Stevo is by no means perfect, he never has been, but for you just to come on and highlight all the negative aspects and ignore all the good he's brought to games, just for me leaves your argument pretty empty I'm afraid.

RD

I see both sides of Stephen Jones but as I have stated many times before I think he has only been selected as the best option available, not because he was ever a brilliant player. He is not and never has been a brilliant player, not when compared to his international contemporaries, not compared to previous welsh fly halves either, as I said before he isn't in a top ten of weld flyhalfs. He might not even be in a top fifteen.

We just lacked options or decent alternatives to Stephen Jones, same story with Neil Jenkins before him.

During both players careers there were always calls to look at other options, because we needed to, because they wre never great players, they wre dependable at best.

And there in that post, you have just done one of the best Welsh players in the pro era, a massive, massive disservice.

Not sure we're ever going to agree on this one Maes!

No doubt Stephen Jones has been a great professional player, has played to his best consistently throughout his career, or that there were many others who on form would have been better options available.

But I will not agree that he has been any more than an average flyhalf by any comparison. If we had of had a better player we would have played them. Hence Jones struggling to stop players like Sweeney, Hook, Henson, Iestyn Harries, Nicky Robinson, Dan Biggar picked ahead of him. He may have seen off those challenges, but we were always looking for an alternative to the Pedestrian, Stphen "Wellies" Jones.

and none of the alternatives were ever good enough, that should tell you all you need to know about how good Stevo is. There hasn't been anyone better, he's been that good. Not perfect (no player ever is), but very good. It's a shame there are so many Welsh posters that can't see that.

You don't get the accolades he has in this game by only being average.

I think all welsh posters know that he is good, just wished we had someone exceptional. Especially us older fans that grew up on a diet of exceptional flyhalfs that were far more skilful in every aspect of their game...!

That might be your problem then, those that are perceived as being more skillful, in other aspects would struggle completely with the professional game.

And reading some of the comments on here, and how Stevo is slated (including by you) then no, I don't think all Welsh posters do know he's good unfortunately

I'm all for criticising a players performance, and discussing their merits etc, but some of the stuff I read about Stevo is just awful.

RD

I don't think i have a problem, you chose a bad choice of words there mate...! The merits of former Welsh flyhalfs is not perceived as being more skilful, they were...! I know I was there I saw them play, I have seen stephen jones play too. Good player, consummate professional but just not as good.

Would be very interested to see a list of your top ten Welsh qualified flyhalves that you have seen...?

not saying they weren't more skillful maes, just that the skill set they have may not be as useful now with the way rugby has developed.

and what's the obsession with your top 10 mate? I'm focusing on the players of now, and who are the best options for Wales ya know now.

As it stands, Stevo is the 2nd best Welsh OH, he's not in the squad, and I think that's a big mistake.

I think it's ludicrous that, especially in Wales, there are so many people who can't stop comparing current players to those of about 20-30yrs ago, the game has moved on - it's practically impossible to compare them!

I would have wanted him in the squad too, for experience and little else, but he is not second choice in this regime. He is probably not second choice on form either, he has hardly played since last season apart from from the subs bench for Wales or the Scarlets. So he wouldn't be at the top of his game.

I don't have an obsession with top tens, I just think it would be interesting to hear your suggestions. As you are obviously of a different generation to me.

He's played more this season then Rhys P has, Maes.

rugbydreamer wrote:He's played more this season then Rhys P has, Maes.

You think he is currently a better player and should be selected for Wales and Scarlets ahead of Priestland...!

Do you not think that Priestland has not yet proved that he creates a far more fluent welsh and Scarlets team than Jones?

If you watch all that was good about Scarlets last year, 90% of it was with Priestland at first receiver not jones, they were alternating all the time.

maestegmafia wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:He's played more this season then Rhys P has, Maes.

You think he is currently a better player and should be selected for Wales and Scarlets ahead of Priestland...!

Do you not think that Priestland has not yet proved that he creates a far more fluent welsh and Scarlets team than Jones?

If you watch all that was good about Scarlets last year, 90% of it was with Priestland at first receiver not jones, they were alternating all the time.

I'm sorry but where on earth did I say that he should start ahead of Rhys for Wales?

You'd just said Stephen Jones had hardly played this season. I simply pointed out he's actually played more than Rhys P.

Scarlets, this season have looked better with Stevo at 10 then Rhys. Rhys has had one good game (which was a cracker away against Saints) otherwise, he's not having a great season.

Do you are saying that yo think Stephen Jones is a better player for Wales and Scarlets than Priestland?

No, all I was doing was contesting the fact that you said Stephen hasn't played much rugby this season (because he has) and that I think at the moment he's the better 10 for the Scarlets.

Rhys P still hasn't learnt how to cope when on the back foot (which happens a lot for the Scarlets), he still panics when under pressure and doesn't know when to always put the passes in or take the ball on himself. For the Scarlets (not Wales), these are key attributes he's still struggling with. He can put in a good half, but not the full 80 for the Scarlets yet.

For Wales, there's a different game plan and forward platform, one that suits Rhys better, so yes I would start with him (not sure when I've ever stated differently when discussing Wales ) but that we need Stevo as a back up. Hook isn't up to it, and I don't think the other Welsh 10's are either.

Not sure how you're misreading what I'm saying Maes.

I am not misreading what you are saying.

well you clearly are Maes if you just had to ask if I though Stevo was better for Scarlets AND Wales then Rhys P

Stephen Jones retiring?

Four years too late - but a positive for the national team.

(Great player back in the day, obv, no disrespect to be levelled at him).

Played well this afternoon.

Unfortunately Priestland went off injured.

Will Priestland injury keep him out of the 6ns?

If so will SJ be called up?

Or will Gatland go with A,N,OTHER

dunno, rumours are Hook got injured today too.

Biggar and Stevo, simples!

maestegmafia wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:He's played more this season then Rhys P has, Maes.

You think he is currently a better player and should be selected for Wales and Scarlets ahead of Priestland...!

Do you not think that Priestland has not yet proved that he creates a far more fluent welsh and Scarlets team than Jones?

If you watch all that was good about Scarlets last year, 90% of it was with Priestland at first receiver not jones, they were alternating all the time.

Maes Old chum
Dreamer is bang on the money (come on mate you know for certain she is spouting the truth here)

I was about to say if you dont think Stephen Jones can orchestrate an attack minded..... thinking TOTAL rugby (thats backs linkage to the forward options) then you should have watched the last 3-4 seasons of Nigel Davies coaching revolution and Stephen Jones marshalling Nigels set pieces, Priestland for the most part played 15 or on the bench............ the exception been this season

For every point you systematically pull down Jones play I could give you examples of his attacking play............... Glasgow v Scarlets Scarlets v Cardiff 8 TRIES IN 2 GAMES and the Aussie game last season are ACTUAL recent examples of how this man can pull together attacking movement

As far as saying he is like Ginger Monster well sorry mate that a massive direspect to one of the best 10s Wales have produced in an era that the game is much tighter with fitter faster defenders.. I'd go with the views of Alfie, Shanks, BOD, Dan Carter (modelled aspects of his games on Jones techniques), Martin Johnson, Garham Henry who have all said at one point or another that he was Wales/Europes best 10. Take that with French Player of the Year

Sorry mate if Mr Gatland played Jones in the same way that the Scarlets coach employed him then the "slow crab-like ancient etc etc zzzzzz" call him what you like!!! would be a totally different flyhalf.

Cheers mate

I disagree with you but will not argue the matter.

Flyhalfactory;

"Dan Carter (modelled aspects of his games on Jones techniques)..."

Unbelievable but it is indeed true.

Standing still for the anthems and eating a banana at half time.

Dan Carter doesn't look like he's playing with a fridge on his back

gowales wrote:Dan Carter doesn't look like he's playing with a fridge on his back

That's a skill only truly great players can master my friend

gowales wrote:Dan Carter doesn't look like he's playing with a fridge on his back

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'd same old same old

Casartelli wrote:Flyhalfactory;

"Dan Carter (modelled aspects of his games on Jones techniques)..."

Unbelievable but it is indeed true.

Standing still for the anthems and eating a banana at half time.

BOLD Mr F you old seadog I am honoured !!!

Listening to DC ................
"Jones becoming French Player of the Year.....proved that in a harder league (French S14) he is clever enough to rise to the top, you don't need to be a headline runner just someone who can read the game, awareness, position and tackling"

Carter is not a headline grabbing running, but an aware flyhalf who creates opportunities for others, his loop pass and run is a classic Jones movement [b]

Dan Carter is a much better player than Stephen Jones. He may have modelled parts of his game on things jones does, but Carter performs all round so much better.

maestegmafia wrote:Dan Carter is a much better player than Stephen Jones. He may have modelled parts of his game on things jones does, but Carter performs all round so much better.

Dont think thats ever been a question.

People tend to go too far 1 way or the other with welsh flyhalves, they're either the messiah, or a very naughty boy.

Stephen Jones - Consummate professional, a very good flyhalf, great servant to Wales, lovely flat distribution, great hands, nice game-management linking with forwards and backs, doesnt offer an (international level) running threat from 10, relatively short range kicking from hand, great goal-kicking percentage, can be known to fluff under pressure kicking (at goal/tactical). One of the tops fly-halfs in his prime, powers are waning due to age. (ps. runs at an funny angle. )

Thats how I'd sum him up.

Yes. But retire for two years and the BBC start making dewy eyed documentaries charting a stellar playing career. The current incumbent fowls up and fans say: "if only we had Neil Jenkins/Stephen Jones now".

of course, and they'll crucify the next winger to not be shane.

same as they did with Sir Johnny of Wilkinson in England, and they will do in Ireland with the next incumbent of the 13 shirt who isnt as good as BOD was.

of course, this is all induced by the media and some silly pundits who like to hear their own voice and will only be believed by the general rugby public who are interested in the international game and believe everything they hear/see on the six nations coverage.

Comfort wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dan Carter is a much better player than Stephen Jones. He may have modelled parts of his game on things jones does, but Carter performs all round so much better.

Dont think thats ever been a question.

People tend to go too far 1 way or the other with welsh flyhalves, they're either the messiah, or a very naughty boy.

Stephen Jones - Consummate professional, a very good flyhalf, great servant to Wales, lovely flat distribution, great hands, nice game-management linking with forwards and backs, doesnt offer an (international level) running threat from 10, relatively short range kicking from hand, great goal-kicking percentage, can be known to fluff under pressure kicking (at goal/tactical). One of the tops fly-halfs in his prime, powers are waning due to age. (ps. runs at an funny angle. )

Thats how I'd sum him up.

To suggest that DC does all things better is ludicrous for a start he is not half a good defender as SJ, doesnt make the hits "wellies" does either.............. and the only comparison you can make is the time they both spent time in France as a flyhalf ............ one became player of the year, and one didnt perform at all, take from that what you like

Are you saying that DC would be the player he has been if he was in some of the Welsh sides that SJ has had to perform in.

SJ has put to bed all the so called "mercurial naturally talented (groan)" 10s over the last 15 yrs ,,,,,,,, Iestyn Harries, Robinson, Henson, Hook.........

A more complete 10 you guys have not had ................ deserves some respect

FHF wellies is way past his best, He is 34 and whilst he can still do a job for the scarlets getting him to drag his corpse around dublin for Wales is a retrograde step. I would rather see us play someone for the future and develop that player, whether its Tovey, Biggar, Steffan Jones, even Morgan and lose to Ireland than go for a short term fix in Stephen Jones. I will even take Hook at 10 rather than Stephen Jones.

Now Im not knocking his achievements he has served Wales proud but at 34 with his powers seriously waning from the days he was voted best player in France what would be the point? as for a more complete ten Wales have had considerably better outside halfs than Stephen Jones in my lifetime. Wellies was better than Nicky Robinson and Hook (Harris and Henson both inside centres whatever they personally thought) but is he a better option than the other two welsh 10s playing regularly for their regions at the moment, no he isnt!

Time gets us all in teh end and perservering with sombody who should have been pensioned off two years ago curtails the development of players who can make a mark in the next decade. If it coests us a win in Dublin, big deal it may get us a win in a world cup semi in four years time. What if we need a drop to win in Dublin? Is he going to run away and hide again?

Comfort wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dan Carter is a much better player than Stephen Jones. He may have modelled parts of his game on things jones does, but Carter performs all round so much better.

Dont think thats ever been a question.

People tend to go too far 1 way or the other with welsh flyhalves, they're either the messiah, or a very naughty boy.

Stephen Jones - Consummate professional, a very good flyhalf, great servant to Wales, lovely flat distribution, great hands, nice game-management linking with forwards and backs, doesnt offer an (international level) running threat from 10, relatively short range kicking from hand, great goal-kicking percentage, can be known to fluff under pressure kicking (at goal/tactical). One of the tops fly-halfs in his prime, powers are waning due to age. (ps. runs at an funny angle. )

Thats how I'd sum him up.

Comfort,you missed pretty solid tackler and invariably kicked restarts too far.

TycroesOsprey wrote:FHF wellies is way past his best, He is 34 and whilst he can still do a job for the scarlets getting him to drag his corpse around dublin for Wales is a retrograde step. I would rather see us play someone for the future and develop that player, whether its Tovey, Biggar, Steffan Jones, even Morgan and lose to Ireland than go for a short term fix in Stephen Jones. I will even take Hook at 10 rather than Stephen Jones.

Now Im not knocking his achievements he has served Wales proud but at 34 with his powers seriously waning from the days he was voted best player in France what would be the point? as for a more complete ten Wales have had considerably better outside halfs than Stephen Jones in my lifetime. Wellies was better than Nicky Robinson and Hook (Harris and Henson both inside centres whatever they personally thought) but is he a better option than the other two welsh 10s playing regularly for their regions at the moment, no he isnt!

Time gets us all in teh end and perservering with sombody who should have been pensioned off two years ago curtails the development of players who can make a mark in the next decade. If it coests us a win in Dublin, big deal it may get us a win in a world cup semi in four years time. What if we need a drop to win in Dublin? Is he going to run away and hide again?

Totally agree with you Tycroes mate

SJ is too old...................... however play your best players at the end of the day you should developemt outside of the main game

Is Gatland there to win games or develope players

I would have picked Priestland Bigger Tovey Steffan Jones before Wellies, who had a good game last weekend in France

However all of them are playing poorly and worse form than Jones

I would have suggested Henson after his first game for the Blues but since then he has been less than average

Difficult position for Wales

FHF

Just wondering but are you his agent?

Contract is up this year or next?

Henson at full back at the moment, fine. at centre maybe but not at ten.