Ulster - British or Irish?

First topic message reminder :

I hope I'm not going to cause a argument here but I have noticed that fans from Munster Leinster etc seem to also support Ulster. However, surely Ulster is a British team as they are governed as part of the United Kingdom where as Munster and Leinster are republic of Irelend provinces. I would be interested to hear the views from Munster, Connaught, & Leinster fans why they share this affinity to a team from the United Kingdom?

Shafted.Com

Feagh McHugh wrote:Dod,

Your first two sentences are just projection, but do provide an amusing insight into your character. Just so you know- I can grasp complex financial issues. I work for a PLC as a financial analyst in London. We had 23% growth last year.

My point was in response to yours saying "we alone..." - which isnt true.

We gambled recklessly but lets not forget European banks lent recklessly to us too. Capitalism is risk and reward, European banks took the risk but were let off the hook.

Anyway I do enjoy a good intellectual debate when one is on offer - and it aint here

Projections of what Feagh?

Some financial analyst Feagh you will also recall the lending by British banks which is the majority (British and American bank lending outstrips European bank lending by a considerable amount but I dont see them lining up to sacrifice their bonds)....Also I am sure as an (cough) financial analyst you would be aware that if the contagion from the Irish situation had spread not only would the rest of Europe (including the UK) be up the creek we in Ireland would have been sent back to the even darker ages...(pre Cromwell).

Are you sure you arent a book keeper?

Man. I love it when Decco goes on one.

Truth is, the Brits saved our arses. Again. They backed us financially. They need us as much we need them. They have have far too much invested in us not to. Im not talkin love here. Just expediency and need.

The Germans made their industrial Gold on the back of the rest of us. Now, they want to run us and the rest of Europe. They are. Financially.
But, it doesnt mean we have to sell off the Family Jewels to fund it. Which we are now.

I find that abhorrent. Padraig Pearse would cry in his grave.

The Punt used to be legal tender in Holyhead but try spending the Euro there and they will think you are taking the P

How did the british back up Gibson? They gave us a loan. The same as we have now?

If you are blaming the Germans you might as well blame the Dutch and Nordics as well as they did what....come on Gibson at the back???

Speak up man!!!

Yes Managed their economies....

The arguement in Ireland that we imported cheap German imports is bollix. The percentage we import from Germany wouldnt make a bavarian hausfrau smile.

Now Young Gibson who exports more to us than any other country in Europe...cheap exports that are more important than the BRICK countries put together...that helped their economy....come on man who????

Yes the British......

Our exports to Britain = 25% of total our exports to Europe = about 50%...

our Debts to Britain = a whopping amount (source BBC) bigger than the Germans by a long shot.

Also what Family Jewels would that be Gibson...our effing paddywhackery...

No man its our people emigrating again cos they have to because the ruling classes in this godforsaken country are the biggest bunch of gombeen men ever. Padraig Pearse would be spinning because the legacy he left was to a bunch of money grabbing cute hoors............

I'm not an economist but I agree with DOD actually.

Actually our export figures
15% UK
44% Europe
23% USA
18% ROW

Imports
32% UK
28% Europe (thats all of Europe)
15% USA
25% ROW

Most of the UK imports would be shipped on again. It's all a tax fiddle well at least this is what I was told by a mate of mine who is a manager with a large tractor manufacturer.

Cymroglan wrote:Most of the UK imports would be shipped on again. It's all a tax fiddle well at least this is what I was told by a mate of mine who is a manager with a large tractor manufacturer.

Probably right Cymro...everythings a flippin fiddle in this place...

DOD wrote:How did the british back up Gibson? They gave us a loan. The same as we have now?

If you are blaming the Germans you might as well blame the Dutch and Nordics as well as they did what....come on Gibson at the back???

Speak up man!!!

Yes Managed their economies....

The arguement in Ireland that we imported cheap German imports is bollix. The percentage we import from Germany wouldnt make a bavarian hausfrau smile.

Now Young Gibson who exports more to us than any other country in Europe...cheap exports that are more important than the BRICK countries put together...that helped their economy....come on man who????

Yes the British......

Our exports to Britain = 25% of total our exports to Europe = about 50%...

our Debts to Britain = a whopping amount (source BBC) bigger than the Germans by a long shot.

Also what Family Jewels would that be Gibson...our effing paddywhackery...

No man its our people emigrating again cos they have to because the ruling classes in this godforsaken country are the biggest bunch of gombeen men ever. Padraig Pearse would be spinning because the legacy he left was to a bunch of money grabbing cute hoors............

"In relation to the position of the United Kingdom, that's a matter for the United Kingdom. In general the UK has not participated in European Union-wide assistance, but I know that the British authorities are anxious to ensure any help that Ireland needs will be given."

He said bank deposits were safe and repeated that the EU stood "shoulder to shoulder" with Ireland.

Samuel Tombs, UK economist at Capital Economics, said: "The Irish situation could directly affect the UK economy in several different ways. First, if an Irish bailout relies on funds from the European Union's European financial stability mechanism to which the UK government contributes – or perhaps even direct bilateral loans from the UK – then the UK's gross public debt will rise and further risk will be absorbed onto the public sector balance sheet.

"Second, UK banks may suffer further losses on their exposures to Ireland's banking sector, businesses and households, either as a result of outright default by borrowers or through further falls in asset values.


"While UK banks have reduced their exposure to Ireland over the last couple of years, it is still the equivalent to around 6% of UK GDP and much larger than their exposure to other peripheral eurozone economies. And third, continued weakness in Ireland's economy could obviously hamper the UK's already feeble export recovery."




Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/17/george-osborne-help-ireland-debt-crisis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


So, Britain did help us outside of the EU, as stated by me - because it was in their interests. And ours. As you say, we are into them for more than the others. Their banks financed most of our debacle. As for your rant, I dont know where it's going. Wine-fueled maybe?

Of course Germany got rich on the back of all the EU Member States - not just Ireland. And I'm not blaming them for anything. But for Germany to grow economically, it needs financially-stable neighbours to buy their goods. So, its also in their interests to back the Euro.

The Irish feiced it up themselves, above and beyond the World Financial crisis. We had a crisis within a crisis. Hidden by imbeciles in Government and fueled by bankers and Property developers - for years.

I know in Holland, they are not happy with the Irish, Greeks and Portugese. These 3 countries, more than any others - skivved money from the EU for years and did not invest it properly in their infrastructures.
Now, its time to pay the piper. The Irish bow to their European Masters and get on with it - no real protest. The people suffer. The Greeks revolt and dont pay tax. The Portugese dont revolt and still dont pay tax.

The EU should have put stringent checks in place, for Ireland, Greece and Portugal (as well as others), when they were 1st admitted to the Eurozone. That's where the biggest mistakes were made. Little or no Due Diligience. Which in any business (or EU merger as it is) - is laughable. It was an accident waiting to happen and the Brits & Danes could see it coming and stayed out of it.

As for selling the Family Jewels. Its all up for grabs.Facilities and natural resources. Forestry, Airports, railroads, Ports, RTE, ESB, CIE, Bord Gais and Aer Lingus(no loss), are all on the table now. Most all, are key to keep under Govt control. Thatcher was proven wrong over time. Privatisation does not work for these facilities.

Only Her Rivers Run Free? Me bollix. They'll go too. Ve vil need ze papers to fish in our own rivers, ja?

P.S. Any more cold stats outta you and it will confirm to me, that you are, in fact - SIN E.

The EU should have put stringent checks in place, for Ireland, Greece and Portugal (as well as others), when they were 1st admitted to the Eurozone. That's where the biggest mistakes were made. Little or no Due Diligience. Which in any business - is laughable. It was an accident waiting to happen and the Brits & Danes could see it coming and stayed out of it.

This is where I have the problem with the current discussion in Ireland. We had elected goverments with responsibility for regulation and putting the correct checks in place. The Germans/Dutch/Nordics all managed what was going on correctly by keeping costs down and managing their economies. Here the minute things go wrong we look for someone to blame. Because it wasnt us guv'nor. If back in 01-03 we had had proper budgets and controls put in place the government of the time would have lost the election to the other side who would have continued on the wild west economics. Also there would have been people (the same ones blaming the Germans and everyone else) screaming blue murder of EU interference etc etc. This is what people dont get...we voted for the dopes who implemented the stupid economic policies which got us where we are....The EU spent plenty of time over the last 10 years warning us of the dangers...but no not us....we were the celtic tiger, untouchable, a great success - plus we let everyone know it.

As for Britain...look they are phooked as well in that their budget deficit is worse than the Italians or the Spanish they are out of the limelight at the moment but are next on the list the "markets" will go after. Also they have just punted things to now due to the money printing effort they have gone through....if things dont pick up globally they have serious issues. The Danes have other issues internally as well (more than the other nordics) especially in their banking sector.

Now I dont want nor do I expect the big bad Germans to try to tell us what to do. But here is something...in the 10 years since 1997/8 when the economies really took off the German public sector bill increased by 15%, ours increased by 100%. I know which Model I would prefer to follow.

Gibson wrote: The EU should have put stringent checks in place, for Ireland, Greece and Portugal (as well as others), when they were 1st admitted to the Eurozone. That's where the biggest mistakes were made. Little or no Due Diligience. Which in any business (or EU merger as it is) - is laughable. It was an accident waiting to happen and the Brits & Danes could see it coming and stayed out of it.

I think you will fine that Ireland was as close to meeting the requirements as France and Belgium for example and much closer than the likes of Spain and Italy. THe problem in Ireland is very different from the other PIIGS in that it was caused by criminal negligence in the Private sector where as the others were largely Government incompetance.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Gibson wrote: The EU should have put stringent checks in place, for Ireland, Greece and Portugal (as well as others), when they were 1st admitted to the Eurozone. That's where the biggest mistakes were made. Little or no Due Diligience. Which in any business (or EU merger as it is) - is laughable. It was an accident waiting to happen and the Brits & Danes could see it coming and stayed out of it.

I think you will fine that Ireland was as close to meeting the requirements as France and Belgium for example and much closer than the likes of Spain and Italy. THe problem in Ireland is very different from the other PIIGS in that it was caused by criminal negligence in the Private sector where as the others were largely Government incompetance.

I dont know Geoff we had plenty of Government incompetence as well in relation...

Sure. its all relative but by comparison with Portugal, and the like, it was minor. At least the econmony had real growth before 2008.

Ireland had more growth in 1 year than Portugal had in 5

True but looking back...how much was real and how much was really a massive pyramid scheme...

geoff998rugby wrote:Sure. its all relative but by comparison with Portugal, and the like, it was minor. At least the econmony had real growth before 2008.

Ireland had more growth in 1 year than Portugal had in 5

Pretty much everyone was at or close to the level required to get entry into the Euro, except for Greece who were a good bit off. Of course we've now learned that they were fiddling the books so in reality they were miles off and should never have been let in. At the moment Europe is so interconnected that everyone owes everyone money and if one country defaults it affects everyone so that is why everyone is working so hard to save each other. The Eurozone wasn't really thought out well enough and there are problems that people just didn't see coming, which is just another example of politicians/businessmen being too arrogant/stupid to learn lessons from the past and instead we repeated our mistakes.

Looked up some figures, at the time of the Euro starting

4 countries have a Deficit which under the Maastricht treaty means they should not have been allowed into the Euro - Greece, Slovakia, Slovenia and Malta.

Only 5 countries had a balanced budget - Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Luxemburg and Ireland.

As I say at the time Ireland were one of the better shape economies

True geoff. And over the decade the Irish state posted mostly huge surpluses and sometimes small defecits in their budgets. That's what makes Ireland's case different from the other problem countries. The debts were not originally the Irish peoples. An incompetent government signed a legally binding international agreement that the Irish state would cover the huge private gambling debts of reckless banks, borrowers and lender alike, without knowing the full cost.

That's what's extra tragic about the Irish situation. A government inherited what was a genuine economic miracle in the 90's and a strong economy, and 12 years later they left office with a wealthy country, somehow completely bankrupt, with the IMF in town. It's incredible they were elected three times, even when their leader was telling a tribunal that he didn't have a bank account and he won all that money on the horses. And it's our fault because we voted for them. And the really depressing thing is that the political opposition weren't warning us or holding the government to account. They were promising to at least match the governments recklessness, in order to get into power.

My hope is that the Irish people will learn a harsh but valuable lesson from all this. It actually was the first major economic boom in our states history. We had no national memory of what could go wrong and acted like a reckless, arrogant teenager with his first paycheck. And we trusted the people in charge to much. However there were plenty of positive developments in Irish society in the last 20 year, which we can hold onto. So we're broke again. But we were broke in the 80's and we worked ourselves out of it. We blew it in record time. Maybe this experience will help us crack it the next time?

Well said Feckless.

Moved back to Ireland in 1997 and couldn't believe how much the country had improved since I left in the late 80's.

Wasn't back a wet week when FF managed to engineer a General Election.

Given that FG were the architects of the fledgling Tiger economy and were doing a good job I thought it was only a formality that they would be re-elected.

How much I had forgotten about Irish politics!!

Cue 14 years of brown envelopes, tribunals, dodgy politicians, Galway race tents, 'social partnership', infantile economics and pathetic giveaway budgets.

With each passing election and the attitude of the average Irish voter which boiled down to 'better the devil you know...' ,despite the ample evidence of incompetence, I came to dispair more and more.

Make no mistake. We got exactly what we deserved.

And I'm from a staunch FF background!

Oh and in answer to the O/P.

Ulster is a province in Ireland.

Northern Ireland is part of The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland exists within the borders of Ulster but Ulster is not part of The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.

Simple.

Jeebus some of this makes grim reading...tell me this since we're on the topic..how hopeful are people for the future, that the Irish economy can return to growth in the near future?

Hey Munstermac I returned in 97 as well. Even then I thought the place was going crazy..with costs shooting up.

Rodders..not hopeful at all

I remember being in Dublin in 1978 - good it was a depressing place.
Poverty was palpable.

When I went back in the 90's the change was unbelievable.
A modern European city as much as anywhere.
Only London and Paris struck me as bigger and brasher.

Ahead in terms of dynamism of Rome, Madrid and Amsterdam and on a par with Berlin imv

My answer Rodders, is look to Iceland. They handled total financial devastation brilliantly. They did not cowe or bow to pressure from their creditors. And they are now busy putting all those responsible for their crisis, in their place. A Criminal Investigation is under way and those found culpable - will go to jail. So impressive.

In Irelands case? The criminals are running free and still have assets all over the World.

Spot the differ.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

Gibbo its happening now. A girl I know, her dad was sent to prison for several years last week. For embezzling money. He is locked up for years now in the same cells as murderers thieves and rapists. The money thieves are being dealt with.

how hopeful are people for the future, that the Irish economy can return to growth in the near future?

I don't think there's any doubt but that the economy will return to growth around the same time as other ecomomies.

Fundamentally there's no difference between the Irish economy and alot of others.

We have a strong petro - chemical sector, a strong multi national sector, a strong tourism sector and our agri - food industry is the envy of many other countries.

You would even hope that when the rest of the world sorts itself out it might fuel more jobs here at home and consequently might kickstart domestic demand.

But that's not the problem. Our problem is the HUGE sovereign debt we now have due to the utter incompetence of the previous FF government.

That's going to be an anchor around the neck of this and many more generations of Irish people to come.

DOD

Yep got back just in time to watch Clare win their second All Ireland in 3 years.

Ahh happy, happy days!!

You never know, now that we have Davy at the helm......

MunsterMac wrote:Yep got back just in time to watch Clare win their second All Ireland in 3 years.

I was at that final MunsterMac. And the '95 one. I'm a Clare hurling supporter. Me dad's a Clare man. Are you?

Love this guys response to it all. We need more like him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beK0O25O9aY#video

I was at that final MunsterMac. And the '95 one. I'm a Clare hurling supporter. Me dad's a Clare man. Are you?

Born and bred (and bled!) in the heart of Clare hurling country.

Came back for the '95 final as well but felt a bit of a fraud as I wasn't at any of the other matches. (Listened to the Munster Final on a crackly old AM radio in London.)

Put that right in '97 and since!

Gibson wrote:My answer Rodders, is look to Iceland. They handled total financial devastation brilliantly. They did not cowe or bow to pressure from their creditors. And they are now busy putting all those responsible for their crisis, in their place. A Criminal Investigation is under way and those found culpable - will go to jail. So impressive.

In Irelands case? The criminals are running free and still have assets all over the World.

Spot the differ.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

Thanks for the answers guys, I was hoping for something more positive but I heard what I expected. The current situation is heartbreaking and incredibly frustrating.

I've heard the comparisons with Iceland before Gibson. Perhaps something drastic is better than the current situation which is essentially taking one for the team within the EU and pissing into the wind with regards getting to grips with the sovereign dept. its a total bollix though and its hard to see the way out any time soon.