Ulster - British or Irish?

First topic message reminder :

I hope I'm not going to cause a argument here but I have noticed that fans from Munster Leinster etc seem to also support Ulster. However, surely Ulster is a British team as they are governed as part of the United Kingdom where as Munster and Leinster are republic of Irelend provinces. I would be interested to hear the views from Munster, Connaught, & Leinster fans why they share this affinity to a team from the United Kingdom?

roddersm wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote: Anyway, nearly every irish rugby fan I know supports all 4 provinces once they're not playing each other, and rightly so.

Absolutely man..people outside Ireland may not understand our set up...it doesn't matter what passports we have or what church we attend, if any, when we pull on the jersey and put on our boots we represent Ireland and Irish rugby...we fight and bleed together, and when we bleed..we bleed green...

All that rigmarole stopped years ago......

Gretgael1 wrote:Stuart Barnes did call Ulster the team from Northern Ireland during the game today. Many people outside of Ireland don't know that the province of Ulster also includes 3 counties from the Republic. Anyway, nearly every irish rugby fan I know supports all 4 provinces once they're not playing each other, and rightly so.

Yeah, I can sort of forgive that though given we play all our games in Belfast but the terms 'Northern Ireland' and 'Ulster' are far from synonymous.

Barnes means well...he thinks hes being PC but he's just being inaccurate..people shouldn't take it so literally.

It could have been,

"The team from northern Ireland."

In which case he would be correct.

But since he thinks we have David Trimble playing on the wing....

David Trimble and Paddy McGuinness - Irish wing designates.

You're as bad Gibson!

Who is "Paddy"??? Is he Martin's brother?

roddersm wrote:Barnes means well...he thinks hes being PC but he's just being inaccurate..people shouldn't take it so literally.

Barnes is terrible. There's a great clip on youtube with Lionel Beauxis showing some great footwork with the ball, and when shown in slow motion Barnes says "thats a magnificent ..... piece of camera work" Unbelievable really.

https://youtu.be/5J_08IrbBpc

MrsP wrote:It could have been,

"The team from northern Ireland."

In which case he would be correct.

But since he thinks we have David Trimble playing on the wing....

Well...the team from both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland would be absolutely correct But here's to Ulster

MrsP wrote:

You're as bad Gibson!

Who is "Paddy"??? Is he Martin's brother?

Yeah. Martin is not allowed anywhere near Ulster Rugby - for subtle reasons. But, his bro - Paddy - he took de soup. Everyone knows that.

Sheesh. I dunno. Ya try to educate the Ulster/British and they throw it all back at ya. Its a long History repeating itself.

Ah well.

I don'tt think this was a WUM, it is an interesting question and some informative answers. I often wondered why there was a combined rugby side rather than like football i.e., separate teams.

Great weekend results from Ireland teams.

Connacht and not "Connaught" isn't it?

Well if it's the road in London its the latter. If its a province in Ireland its the former

Both the rugby and soccer teams predate political partition. When the island was divided both sports retained an all Ireland team. In soccer the south eventually split from the IFA to form the FAI after a row over pro-Belfast bias in team selections I think. The rugby team never ran into such troubles and remained one team.

So the rugby team is not really a combined team of two states. It's more like a relic of a time when Ireland was one "nation" within the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, before the republic of Irelands independence. Players from the republic of Ireland kept playing for what were for a long time called "The British Lions".

So essentially, rugby pretty much ignored all political developments that happened in the 1920's and kept doing what they were doing before that time.

To Hell Or To Connacht.

(c) Ollie Cromwell.

* Basterd Scrum Half for England (1653-1658)



* = Wiki. Not me.

I always thought it was limerickman Richard Harris who said that in some film or other about GAA in the 17th century

DOD wrote:Well if it's the road in London its the latter. If its a province in Ireland its the former

You Irish. Your command of English is surprising sir.

Cén fáth a bhfuil sin Deaglain?

What a weekend man. Leinster, the least impressive province this weekend and Im happy.

Munster. Were magnificent.

Dont really want to talk about it yet. Culchies playing like D4'S? Its not right.

There must have been Limerick drugs involved...

No drugs, just youthful enthusiasm...with some excellent play by both forwards and backs...and young mr. Earls is looking very promising as oc

Gibson wrote:To Hell Or To Connacht.

(c) Ollie Cromwell.

He did too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/ashorthistory/archive/intro100.shtml

DOD wrote:No drugs, just youthful enthusiasm...with some excellent play by both forwards and backs...and young mr. Earls is looking very promising as oc

He nailed it with a phhoking club-hammer. Always recognised his sublime talent. Said 3 years ago he was the man to take BOD's mantle.

Then, in the interim, I recinded. I questioned his head for a Top class 13. BUT. He really looked mentally mature in that game. He was a leader. As well as an innovater.

He was masjestic.

Ride On Keef Earls.

Zebo? I mean... Its just a matter of time. Its Simon Geoghegan with a tan.

He is the most exciting young player across the provinces right now. For sure. And that's saying something.

A hat-trick in a big Heineken Cup match will make people stand up and take notice. He made it look easy too. Which is the sign of a talented player.

roddersm wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote: Anyway, nearly every irish rugby fan I know supports all 4 provinces once they're not playing each other, and rightly so.

Absolutely man..people outside Ireland may not understand our set up...it doesn't matter what passports we have or what church we attend, if any, when we pull on the jersey and put on our boots we represent Ireland and Irish rugby...we fight and bleed together, and when we bleed..we bleed green...

Well said Rodders. Rugby is just about the most unified thing this island has. A model you might say for harmony that other strands of society might follow. Scottish people are Scottish, Welsh are Welsh and Irish people, north or south are....Irish. That's not a political term, that's a place, that's space on a map, that's a humanbeing inhabiting a special place on the globe devoted to him.

Irish is a good word - and it's what we all are. Now the political stuff belongs to the taxes, the politicians, the colour of the buses and different pictures on things called money.

We are one as a rugby nations inspite of being seperate by politics.

The fact is the English and Welsh just cant handle that .
Politcis plays no part in rugby, indeed in any team sport - Gaelic football, Cricket, Hurling and Hockey. It is only the prima donnas of soccer who are small minded enough to split - sum up that sport really.

They don't understand that after your own province the other three come next in the loyality of your support.

I was shouting for Connacht, Leinster and Munster as much as Ulster this weekend. In fact in the case of Connacht I might have been shouting even louder

Bit harsh to generalise all the Welsh there.

I'm a Scarlet but I still support all the other regions in Wales if they're playing (as long as it's not against us!). And I know loads of people like me.

Politics and rugby should never be mixed, their Northern Irish, but half of them want to be Repulblican!

At least in rugby their all Irish, unlike in football where their divided.

rugbydreamer wrote:Bit harsh to generalise all the Welsh there.

Or all the English!

Still, if that's the way geoff feels he's as bad as some of those he's (rightly) criticising.

It's important that the term Ulster is understood (well, not important but interesting) when talking about political divides.

Ulster is an ancient Irish division - and has changed shape more than once based I'm sure on inter-tribal warfare or just people getting things plain wrong on their non-existant map reading!

Anyway, Ulster is an ancient region like the others. But it is also a shorthand used by some to denote Northern Ireland . That is and always was an inaccuracy as Ulster takes in three counties that are in the Republic. So Ulster is a cross-National region, if you will.

Now, when the Germans finally take over all Europe again, this time through the banking system!!! - they'll merge the historically divided territory once more and call it New Wilhelmshaven!

Here endeth the Geography lesson

SecretFly wrote:It's important that the term Ulster is understood (well, not important but interesting) when talking about political divides.

Ulster is an ancient Irish division - and has changed shape more than once based I'm sure on inter-tribal warfare or just people getting things plain wrong on their non-existant map reading!

Anyway, Ulster is an ancient region like the others. But it is also a shorthand used by some to denote Northern Ireland . That is and always was an inaccuracy as Ulster takes in three counties that are in the Republic. So Ulster is a cross-National region, if you will.

Now, when the Germans finally take over all Europe again, this time through the banking system!!! - they'll merge the historically divided territory once more and call it New Wilhelmshaven!

Here endeth the Geography lesson

Thats a bit xenophobic fly...the funny thing is the Germans dont want to take over europe we are just hoping they will take the responsibility for Paddy's and Dimitrios spending habits and bankroll the rest of us...Better that than running back to our neighbours across the sea to become a backward provincial economy again - no?

Germany wants what they've always wanted - Lebensraum.

And don't start me on zenophobia. In today's Europe, Democracy itself is evidence of anti-European zenophobia, and to be stamped out with zealous beaurocracy.

In this great Europe of unequyal equals we ARE a backward provincial economy DOD - our masters visited last week from abroad to tell us how good we're all behaving. You know them, the guys you or I never voted for?

And............ you have far more cultural relatives (ie people with Irish family or Irish themselves) across the sea in the country with no name than will ever exist in Germany or France.

Zenophobic about the path Europe is taking? Damn right I am.

Notch wrote:Green or Orange, we're all just pasty and White at the end of the day

Except at the end of a sunny summer's day, Notch.

I got into serious grief for even suggesting that Ireland forms part of the British Isles (which it does) in reference to the Lions.

Equally

British Isles is just a contested geographical term though.

SecretFly wrote:Germany wants what they've always wanted - Lebensraum.

And don't start me on zenophobia. In today's Europe, Democracy itself is evidence of anti-European zenophobia, and to be stamped out with zealous beaurocracy.

In this great Europe of unequyal equals we ARE a backward provincial economy DOD - our masters visited last week from abroad to tell us how good we're all behaving. You know them, the guys you or I never voted for?

And............ you have far more cultural relatives (ie people with Irish family or Irish themselves) across the sea in the country with no name than will ever exist in Germany or France.

Zenophobic about the path Europe is taking? Damn right I am.

That is a load of clap trap if ever I heard it in addition to the pseudo colonial rubbish of running back to our masters which also seems to be prevalent among a certain sector here. I have relatives over in Britain but also I lived on the continent for a number of years and there is a wealth of goodwill there that we nearly managed to destroy. You forget we got ourselves into this mess, no one else did it. The facts are that in a global economy we have certain choices to make. We do have a democratic choice if we make the choice to leave Europe and the Euro then so be it but the vast majority of the Irish public are realists if anything. The simplicity of the arguements are hilarious lets not pay our debts etc etc. Well if you want unemployment to hit 25%+ with the shedding of 100000 jobs, loss of services and emigration for not just one generation but many then fine. You go with that.

Dod.
We elect a government to do whatever the Imf or the EU tell them to do.

That, my friend is not a democracy.

This is not the place for that discussion.

It's the "Golden Rule". The one with the gold makes the rule. We have to do what the Germans say or the money tap is turned off and we're feiced. And what the Germans say has to happen is naturally gonna be in their interests and not necessarily in ours. German politicians are not answerable to us so why should they give a toss. That's our current problem. And the problem of all the misbehaving, insolvent peripheral countries.

You forget we got ourselves into this mess, no one else did it.

Unfortunately that's true. We can't even blame the Brits for this one.

Feckless Rogue wrote:It's the "Golden Rule". The one with the gold makes the rule. We have to do what the Germans say or the money tap is turned off and we're feiced. And what the Germans say has to happen is naturally gonna be in their interests and not necessarily in ours. German politicians are not answerable to us so why should they give a toss. That's our current problem. And the problem of all the misbehaving, insolvent peripheral countries.

You forget we got ourselves into this mess, no one else did it.

Unfortunately that's true. We can't even blame the Brits for this one.

For every reckless borrower there is a reckless lender. To say we alone got ourselves into to this mess is simply not true.
Dod you aren't Inda kenny or anything are you?

Not a place for this argument DOD and don't call me a West Brit again. I lived closer to the damn action of that history than you did.

Yes Feagh...it was the lenders who made us have Paddy Builder go mad and it wasnt us who voted in government after government or it was us who decided that getting a loan for 6x both couples salary was a good investment...it was the lenders

The West Brit call relates to a place of mind. If you take it as an insult its your problem. Just to note the arguement on the Germans....of course while they were going through their own austerity and managing their economy it was like the frickin wild west here in good old Ireland. OF Course they can call the shots to an extent. But what are we going to do...moan and whinge and not take responsibility for our own actions. Maybe we should ask the Brits to take us back. I am not against that. But it is patently clear we have a hard time governing ourselves so whether its Cameron or Merckel I dont care.

The irony never fails to get to me....we whinge and moan about the IMF/Germans/EU whatever telling us what to do...lets look at the Corporation Tax (I work in one of those Multinationals that take advantage of it). We raise taxes on income and stealth taxes or indirect taxes all over the place. You averrage Joe has to pay. Yet when the question of that sacred cow Corp Tax comes up no one can discuss. Of course we should be asking the corporations to help by paying slightly more (as they have been creaming it off us for years) but the hysteria on it is great. And so we blame the troika for our problems and we wont do anything to help ourselves. Its time we became a mature economy instead of prostituting ourselves to big business and big finance. So the argument cuts both ways...we complain when the Germans/French/English/Americans etc question us (its not just the Germans or French so dont be fooled by that). Yet we run cap in hand to big business and finance the very people who helped get us in this mess.

Only in Ireland ....

DOD wrote:
The West Brit call relates to a place of mind. If you take it as an insult its your problem.

No it's your problem DOD. You're the one doing the insulting. If you don't say it, it isn't a problem. And it's the 'place of mind' idea that insults. You know, like all Irish guys know, what the West Brit tag suggests and when it is used. Be nice and we'll ensure respect exists between us, even if opinions often vary.

Dod,

Your first two sentences are just projection, but do provide an amusing insight into your character. Just so you know- I can grasp complex financial issues. I work for a PLC as a financial analyst in London. We had 23% growth last year.

My point was in response to yours saying "we alone..." - which isnt true.

We gambled recklessly but lets not forget European banks lent recklessly to us too. Capitalism is risk and reward, European banks took the risk but were let off the hook.

Anyway I do enjoy a good intellectual debate when one is on offer - and it aint here

SafeAsMilk wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Bit harsh to generalise all the Welsh there.

Or all the English!

Still, if that's the way geoff feels he's as bad as some of those he's (rightly) criticising.

Sorry but the reality is that Enlgish teams like to see their local rivals lose - that is not the case in Ireland.

When in Northampton last year for example Saints fans were cheering for Leinster (against Leicester) where I was, to a man and woman. Virtually all Ulster fans were cheering for Leinster as well.
Also been to Bath recently and the happy people we met that night were Bristol fans who were delighted we beat their 'hated rivals' (their words not mine).

As for Wales just look at the anomosity that exists between Pontypool, Brigend and Neath and the Regional clubs - those rivalries run deep.

There is a togetherness in Ireland between teams that simply doesn't exist in Wales or England

The term British Isles is not acceptable in Ireland

In the Dail on 8 September 2005 the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated that:

"The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term. Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others."

This remains the Irish Govenrment position up to this day - it does recognise the term.

DOD, we know what you mean by "west brit". It means you're "more Irish" than him. He's been tainted by from living in "the pale" and his "place of mind" isn't Irish enough. Therefore you're better placed to know what's good for Ireland.

geoff999rugby wrote:The term British Isles is not acceptable in Ireland

In the Dail on 8 September 2005 the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated that:

"The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term. Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others."

This remains the Irish Govenrment position up to this day - it does recognise the term.

That is true, but did you know the Republic of Ireland isnt the name of the southern 26 counties. According to our constitution Article 4 (from memory) says the name of the country is "Ireland".
Republic of Ireland is a made up name

I did know that

So how are we going to do against Wales?? (trying to get us back to nice things) Do we still think Earls fits into 13???

roddersm wrote:

Gretgael1 wrote: Anyway, nearly every irish rugby fan I know supports all 4 provinces once they're not playing each other, and rightly so.

Absolutely man..people outside Ireland may not understand our set up...it doesn't matter what passports we have or what church we attend, if any, when we pull on the jersey and put on our boots we represent Ireland and Irish rugby...we fight and bleed together, and when we bleed..we bleed green...

Not a truer word said!!....
Irish provinces do have the green blooded togetherness,that just doesn't perhaps exist in other areas...and I for one am proud of that we can say that!
I love to see a munster or Leinster shirt at an ulster match (or wear mine at a Leinster match e.g the Aviva before Xmas)
...we don't need to ask who these other shirts are supporting...(unless they are playing each other of course)

But..come on with the politics....Can we just talk rugby?

Here's to an Irish HC winner....I'll be there to support whoever it is.........but really hoping its Ulster

Yeah actually. DOD, sorry about my angry response there. It's just I hate the west brit term. I don't want to get into arguments like this on a rugby forum. I want to talk about rugby. I think the OP has had his wicked way with me in the end.

Earls?!!! Bloody Earls!!! He's a Limerick knacker. We need 2 x Palers in the centre. It's Tradition man.

Yes. Big time. He is the best we have. For now.

He was superb yesterday. Showed great maturity and nailed his Irish spot. As did Darcy. McFadden will play a part there too.

So as said before...

Darcy 12.
Earls 13.


NO discussion left on that particular score.

If the OP wants to cause a rift between the Irish posters he picked the wrong topic. We're all together on this one

He should have started a thread about O'Gara v Sexton if that was the aim! ......

roddersm wrote:If the OP wants to cause a rift between the Irish posters he picked the wrong topic. We're all together on this one

He should have started a thread about O'Gara v Sexton if that was the aim! ......

Yeah, Paddy Wallace is miles better than them two anyway!

Gibson wrote:Earls?!!! Bloody Earls!!! He's a Limerick knacker. We need 2 x Palers in the centre. It's Tradition man.

Other than over the past decade, when have we had 2 decent Palers at centre?. Belfast men are not Palers (cf CMH G).