What is wrong with Wales?

Ireland: Worst Pre-World cup ever seen. Very Mediocre world cup with exception of good Munster style win against Australia.

3 out of 4 teams in the Heineken cup quarters.

Wales: Decent Pre-World cup. 2nd best NH nation at the world cup.

1 or zero teams in the Heineken cup quarters.

Club form has nothing to do with international form

Precicesly.

Plus we will hopefully see one Welsh team in the HEC quarter final, and one in the Amlin quarter final. Not bad considering our recent form in Europe

I agree Club form as nothing todo with international form.

So is it down to coaching?

Is it down to the players that play for their club not being interested?

Or is it just the Welsh competition.

Here we go again, players have proved time and time again that they respond differently/better to other coaches.

Gatalnd gets far more out of the players than some of the Regional coaches seem to be getting.

WUM

Players giving their everything for nation but not for their club? It seems the opposite of football.

I think one of the major reasons for Welsh clubs not progressing is that there are WAY too many mercenary foreign players. Every season a few come and a few go and the team never really gels properly.

Also in the Welsh regions there are a handful of foreigners who are first choice for almost every game (Xavier Rush being the best example) which leads to the loss of Andy Powell which is also detrimental to Wales.

The Irish regions don't have as many foreigners, but they are almost all from SA, NZ or OZ. They also don't play all of their foreigners first choice like the Welsh teams too.

Numbers of foreign players

BLUES - 11
SCARLETS - 7
OSPREYS - 10
DRAGONS - 6

MUNSTER - 6
LEINSTER - 6
ULSTER - 8

gowales wrote:WUM

Idiot.

you know why its the opposite in football. Because they don't give a Poopie about playing for their country. Every welshman's dream is to play for Wales in rugby.

It's not exactly a revelation that Wales players love to play for erm....Wales, is it?

Thought that would be one of the easiest things to understand

Also, no insults please

gowales wrote:you know why its the opposite in football. Because they don't give a Poopie about playing for their country. Every welshman's dream is to play for Wales in rugby.

That's a strong statement. Every Welshman? Even the ones that don't follow rugby or the ones that play football?

Coaching is terrible in the regions, they also don't have the mental strength to win big games, limited squad depth and loss of players to international call ups. It doesn't look like getting better anytime soon for Welsh regions.

flopspreys wrote:

gowales wrote:you know why its the opposite in football. Because they don't give a Poopie about playing for their country. Every welshman's dream is to play for Wales in rugby.

That's a strong statement. Every Welshman? Even the ones that don't follow rugby or the ones that play football?

You know what i mean. The majority of footballers don't really care about playing internationally because they already get payed so much by their clubs. International football is also less important compared to club football while in rugby its the opposite.

gowales wrote:Coaching is terrible in the regions, they also don't have the mental strength to win big games, limited squad depth and loss of players to international call ups. It doesn't look like getting better anytime soon for Welsh regions.

disagree with you about the coaching at the Scarlets. They aren't doing too bdly at all. Mental stength now, you may perhaps ahve a point, although Scarlets showed extreme guts yesterday to get that win out in France.

Loss of players is also key, but from a Scarlets pov our squad depth is improving massively. Taking small steps in the right direction anyways

The future of club rugby looks like the youth with the current economic climate that is.

flopspreys wrote:Players giving their everything for nation but not for their club? It seems the opposite of football.

I think one of the major reasons for Welsh clubs not progressing is that there are WAY too many mercenary foreign players. Every season a few come and a few go and the team never really gels properly.

Also in the Welsh regions there are a handful of foreigners who are first choice for almost every game (Xavier Rush being the best example) which leads to the loss of Andy Powell which is also detrimental to Wales.

The Irish regions don't have as many foreigners, but they are almost all from SA, NZ or OZ. They also don't play all of their foreigners first choice like the Welsh teams too.

Numbers of foreign players

BLUES - 11
SCARLETS - 7
OSPREYS - 10
DRAGONS - 6

MUNSTER - 6
LEINSTER - 6
ULSTER - 8

Wrong.

rugbydreamer wrote:

gowales wrote:Coaching is terrible in the regions, they also don't have the mental strength to win big games, limited squad depth and loss of players to international call ups. It doesn't look like getting better anytime soon for Welsh regions.

disagree with you about the coaching at the Scarlets. They aren't doing too bdly at all. Mental stength now, you may perhaps ahve a point, although Scarlets showed extreme guts yesterday to get that win out in France.

Loss of players is also key, but from a Scarlets pov our squad depth is improving massively. Taking small steps in the right direction anyways

Still don't rate Nige and co. very highly. Part of the nineties-esque Wales staff of 07 and Scarlets have yet to win anything since he took over. They have the players, money is not essential to reeling in silverware. What they don't have is the winning mentality and when they do have it, they lose it quickly. Even this season is shows, they put away Saints at FG only to then lose three in a row. Those fleeting moments may give an insight into the talent and potential at the region but unfortunately short bursts of such a nature won't get you anywhere in the long term.

It's been said many times and I can't see how it's changed, Wales lacks championship coaching at this point in time. The only man who proved his leadership on a big stage is Ruddock (and Paul John if you count Sevens) and we all know how that ended.

Hopefully with these new young professional players coming through they can develop a winning mentality.

flopspreys wrote:Players giving their everything for nation but not for their club? It seems the opposite of football.

I think one of the major reasons for Welsh clubs not progressing is that there are WAY too many mercenary foreign players. Every season a few come and a few go and the team never really gels properly.

Also in the Welsh regions there are a handful of foreigners who are first choice for almost every game (Xavier Rush being the best example) which leads to the loss of Andy Powell which is also detrimental to Wales.

The Irish regions don't have as many foreigners, but they are almost all from SA, NZ or OZ. They also don't play all of their foreigners first choice like the Welsh teams too.

Numbers of foreign players

BLUES - 11
SCARLETS - 7
OSPREYS - 10
DRAGONS - 6

MUNSTER - 6
LEINSTER - 6
ULSTER - 8

Are you sure about those foreign player numbers?

The Scarlets, I believe, have Ionghi, Timani, Lamont (until the end of the season) and Manu (who was Welsh qualified). Morgan and Welch were born in England but both are Welsh qualified by residency. Morgan has indicated that he will play for England but until he does he can play for Wales. So that is 4 or 5, less than any of the Irish provinces.

After reading the first topic, I can only say what the others have, just because club teams are not playing well does not mean Wales can't find 15 players in 4 different teams to play well and win for Wales.

Wales have always had the same problem, we don't produce forwards, provided we don't have injuries in the pack, our best 8 players are good enough to compete, but when you start losing Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins, etc, we are going to struggle to beat teams like England, France and Ireland.

But clearly we haven't got enough forwards of sufficient quality to make 4 regions competitive.

Knowsit17 wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

gowales wrote:Coaching is terrible in the regions, they also don't have the mental strength to win big games, limited squad depth and loss of players to international call ups. It doesn't look like getting better anytime soon for Welsh regions.

disagree with you about the coaching at the Scarlets. They aren't doing too bdly at all. Mental stength now, you may perhaps ahve a point, although Scarlets showed extreme guts yesterday to get that win out in France.

Loss of players is also key, but from a Scarlets pov our squad depth is improving massively. Taking small steps in the right direction anyways

Still don't rate Nige and co. very highly. Part of the nineties-esque Wales staff of 07 and Scarlets have yet to win anything since he took over. They have the players, money is not essential to reeling in silverware. What they don't have is the winning mentality and when they do have it, they lose it quickly. Even this season is shows, they put away Saints at FG only to then lose three in a row. Those fleeting moments may give an insight into the talent and potential at the region but unfortunately short bursts of such a nature won't get you anywhere in the long term.

It's been said many times and I can't see how it's changed, Wales lacks championship coaching at this point in time. The only man who proved his leadership on a big stage is Ruddock (and Paul John if you count Sevens) and we all know how that ended.

Scarlets are improving season on season under the regime of Nige, which is all you can ask for. And as for him being part of the 07 coaching team, sure he was backs coach - and we scored some fantastic tries, no? so clearly doing his job well.

The Heineken this year, we had a dream start winning away against Saints, but we still have a ridiculously inexperienced squad. You are aware right taht 75% of our backline are playing their first ever season of Heineken Rugby?

Considering we were in one of the groups of death, to finish above last years finalistis is brilliant, and to get an Amlin QF is solid progress. The frustrating thing is yes we could have done better, but, more importantly we are showing so much improvement. Great things to build on. Can't expect a miracle over night

Seagultaf wrote:

flopspreys wrote:Players giving their everything for nation but not for their club? It seems the opposite of football.

I think one of the major reasons for Welsh clubs not progressing is that there are WAY too many mercenary foreign players. Every season a few come and a few go and the team never really gels properly.

Also in the Welsh regions there are a handful of foreigners who are first choice for almost every game (Xavier Rush being the best example) which leads to the loss of Andy Powell which is also detrimental to Wales.

The Irish regions don't have as many foreigners, but they are almost all from SA, NZ or OZ. They also don't play all of their foreigners first choice like the Welsh teams too.

Numbers of foreign players

BLUES - 11
SCARLETS - 7
OSPREYS - 10
DRAGONS - 6

MUNSTER - 6
LEINSTER - 6
ULSTER - 8

Are you sure about those foreign player numbers?

The Scarlets, I believe, have Ionghi, Timani, Lamont (until the end of the season) and Manu (who was Welsh qualified). Morgan and Welch were born in England but both are Welsh qualified by residency. Morgan has indicated that he will play for England but until he does he can play for Wales. So that is 4 or 5, less than any of the Irish provinces.

The only first choice started for Scarlets that is NWQ is Sean Lamont. Possibly Timani and you could add Morgan into that if he gets capped by England. That's not bad really, and Monty is leaving next season. Manu might be as well. So we'll have Morgan, Iongi, Timani and Gilbert on our books who are NWQ. That's 4, and only 1 of them is a first choice starter! Not sure where that poster got 7 from??

The only reason the regions sign foreign players is for cover, people can't expect the regions not to have any. And they also can't afford good ones like the Irish provinces.

rugbydreamer wrote:Scarlets are improving season on season under the regime of Nige, which is all you can ask for. And as for him being part of the 07 coaching team, sure he was backs coach - and we scored some fantastic tries, no? so clearly doing his job well.

The Heineken this year, we had a dream start winning away against Saints, but we still have a ridiculously inexperienced squad. You are aware right taht 75% of our backline are playing their first ever season of Heineken Rugby?

Considering we were in one of the groups of death, to finish above last years finalistis is brilliant, and to get an Amlin QF is solid progress. The frustrating thing is yes we could have done better, but, more importantly we are showing so much improvement. Great things to build on. Can't expect a miracle over night

I agree I always liked Nigel as a player, but I also like him as a coach, his teams try and play good rugby, but his weakness has always been coaching the forwards, it seems Garin Jenkins has come in and tightened up the areas that were required, they have a young squad whom they can mold, and thankfully none of the other Welsh regions can over power them financially to steal their players.

The Scarlets are improving year on year the biggest problem is consistency among all 4 Welsh regions, but that has always been a problem in Welsh rugby.

Spot on alyn, Nige never has nor ever will be a forwards coach. Garin has helped massively this season and our backline will learn massively from this season too. They've all been chucked in the deep end. Regardless of many of them going to the WC, the HEC is a completely different experience!

I though Gilbert was a Llanelli RFC player, so I didn't count him! THe Scarlets web site does not list him as a squad member.

Every Welsh player's dream is to play rugby for Wales? Except the one who a few weeks back wanted to play for Scotland.

Oh stop it, Fly! Don't be bad.

Sorry, sorry. But yes, I seriously think Welsh players DO rate playing for their country higher than the league or HC. I'm not saying Irish players don't value International higher but Welsh players have a hunger that is so evident when wearing the Red.

But you could also read something in Irish player's ho-hum, take-it-or-leave-it performances in International shirts as perhaps evidence of their very success in Europe.

No, I don't mean that their heart is more given to the Province (although neither am I denying it might be so), but when you have two successful sides that have had the bulk of Irish positions for so long, who have different styles of play that prove effective at club level - it can be hard merging all that into something that will have the approval of all players or indeed their understanding at International level.

In Irish rugby, those two Provincial styles are probably more clinical and more rehearsed and better suited to Ireland than the confused and confusing mishmashed one dished up over the last few years.

In Wales they have no Provincial blueprint that offers the same levels of success and therefore it is much easier for players to drift into International camp and breathe a sigh of relief that they'll be playing a version of rugby they all seem to like and proves more successful than any Provincial brand.

Seagultaf wrote:I though Gilbert was a Llanelli RFC player, so I didn't count him! THe Scarlets web site does not list him as a squad member.

He does play for Llanelli but he's also been capped by Englands deaf rugby team, so deffo NWQ. Superbly talented player who deserves more of a shot with the Scarlets really. He's competing with Morgan and Murphy for the no8 spot though! He was brilliant yesterday against Castres.

The Welsh Regions HC campaign this season was wrecked by that worthless game against Austraila inbetween the 2nd and 3rd HC rounds. The Regions lost all their Wales stars for two whole weeks. It made all the difference on the field as teams who had not been playing or training together lacked cohesion.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:I though Gilbert was a Llanelli RFC player, so I didn't count him! THe Scarlets web site does not list him as a squad member.

He does play for Llanelli but he's also been capped by Englands deaf rugby team, so deffo NWQ. Superbly talented player who deserves more of a shot with the Scarlets really. He's competing with Morgan and Murphy for the no8 spot though! He was brilliant yesterday against Castres.

I don't want to get back into the Shingler argument, but I seriously doubt that playing for the England deaf team will have any effect on Gilbert's ability to qualify for Wales if he so wishes.

rugbydreamer wrote:He does play for Llanelli but he's also been capped by Englands deaf rugby team, so deffo NWQ.

Rather unfortunate choice of phrase there

SafeAsMilk wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:He does play for Llanelli but he's also been capped by Englands deaf rugby team, so deffo NWQ.

Rather unfortunate choice of phrase there

oops!


blushing a bit now, but you know what I meant

Seagultaf wrote:The Welsh Regions HC campaign this season was wrecked by that worthless game against Austraila inbetween the 2nd and 3rd HC rounds. The Regions lost all their Wales stars for two whole weeks. It made all the difference on the field as teams who had not been playing or training together lacked cohesion.

True, round 3 was disrupted massively. Round 4 also to an extent but less of an excuse for that one.

rugbydreamer wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:He does play for Llanelli but he's also been capped by Englands deaf rugby team, so deffo NWQ.

Rather unfortunate choice of phrase there

oops!


blushing a bit now, but you know what I meant

Yeah, just one of those unfortunate slips!

AlwAys thought Welsh players put a lot more into the national team than their regions. It's the opposite with Irish players , they play with so much pride and heart for their provinces. Maybe its because they are longer established and have more history. The geographical structure of the provinces is superior to the Welsh regions -they actually cover ALL of Ireland.

Wales have a brilliantly coached national side and some very poor coaches installed in their regions. Irelands national team have a quite conservative and out of date playing style and there are some question marks over the coaches. But the coaching of the provinces is top class.

All things being equal, Ireland are under-performing at international level and Wales are under-performing in the Heineken Cup.

Also, the atmosphere the Irish fans generate at home for their Provinces would make the hair on the back of your neck stand-up. However, the national side generates nowhere near as much passion. Very quiet and subdued atmosphere at test matches.

Once again, the opposite is true for Wales.

I mostly agree with you Notch but Rodney Parade usually has a great atmosphere as its a proper old school rugby ground

flopspreys wrote:

gowales wrote:WUM

Idiot.

No problem with Wales. There is a problem with some of the rugby fans though who are also banned users of this web-site, yourself for example. Embarrassing.

munkian wrote:I mostly agree with you Notch but Rodney Parade usually has a great atmosphere as its a proper old school rugby ground

Exactly. I still believe that a relatively effective way to win back the masses would be for the regions to stage the odd low key fixture at some of the "regional" grounds that actually have a passionate history, not taking the hard road of trying to replicate that passion within some of the unfamiliar city stadiums.

Doing so would appeal more to the respective communities (Pontypool for the Dragons, Glamorgan/Merthyr for the Blues etc), lend them the respect they deserve if they are to get behind the regional concept and gradually pull bigger crowds to the bigger games once the seeds of better relations have been sown. Could have far greater results than simply telling your average fan "Here's your pill, now swallow it".