Hysteria and nonsense about English rugby

Lately on Sky, various newspapers, and here, I come across people saying that the standard of English club rugby is poor/disastrous, the league is in the toilet and is under limits that hobble the teams and that something has to be done! This is all horsesh*t to me. What has happened is that the Irish teams have had remarkably good year. Had Connacht made one slip up Harlequins would be in the quarters. Had Ulster and Munster not had excellent years then two other English sides would have gone through.

This year the Irish sides have more teams in the quarter finals than any country. For the first time ever. They are having a super year. Does that mean that rugby everywhere else is sh*t and everything needs to be changed? Are the French considering changes to the Top 14? Do the Scots or Welsh want to change their structure yet again? If next year the French have a super year should the IRFU say that Irish rugby is of a poor standard/going backwards and they need to change everything?

When English sides were winning the h cup they were working under the same circumstances that they are now. How can a system be hailed as brilliant one year and labeled a disadvantage the next?

This panic is crazy to me. If the Irish sides not been unusually good this year there could have been four English sides through to the quarter final stages. If this had been the case would people be saying that English rugby is brilliant, has the best model and the best league? (This would I believe had been a record for English sides.) Or would people be aware enough to realize that no, the Irish sides just had a bad year this year and weren't as competitive. Me, I think the former would be said and no questions would be asked. This lack of perspective is really annoying to me.

Get a grip.

I wouldn't say the Irish sides are unusually good. Leinster and Munster are playing as expected and Ulster have carried on their improvement. Connacht won a home game, which isn't exactly a shock as it has been known to happen on occations [there is some sarcasm in there].

The English league isn't optimised for HEC success (focus resources on six clubs) but I don't think many want it to be. People want to keep relegation and salary cap (and avoid any form of regionalisation). If this is the case then they should stop complaining about it and making excuses. Certainly stop asking for other systems to model their own so that they perform worse.

Overall I do agree with the sentiment. People love to dramatise things. Although things have been worse for the last couple of years (1 QF a couple of years ago, no winner since 2007, only 2 finalists in the four seasons since 2007). As has been said before, it'll take a few season before we see if it's a bip or not (it was a said a couple of seasons ago).

What makes you think the Irish sides are having an 'unusually good year'?

Leinster are reigning champs and the top ranked team. Munster and Ulster probably exceded expectations a bit but its not a massive surprise to see both were they are at.

I don't think English club rugby is in the toilet. However I do think that the major problem is that Sky (in particular) do love to talk up the English clubs, and I understand that they have to try and sell the clubs as being exceptional due to having the Jeff coverage/Rugby club etc. Unfortunately, from the way I see it, this does lead to a cocky/over confident/arrogence in the fans/pundits that the Jeff sides are world beaters, and that with exception of Munster, Leinster and the French, that they have a god given right to whup any other side.

SO unfortunately with the opinion that the Rabo sides are not much cop being ingrained, then when the Jeff sides fail to demolish them, the only conclusion is that the Jeff sides are not firing etc.

The Aviva Premiership is still a cracking league with tight matches and differing styles of games. There are still plenty of spills and thrills (such as Tigers v Sale).

Most of the clubs can still raise the odd good performance, such as Gloucester this weekend and Saints last.

Away fixtures to places like Vicarage Road and Welford Road will not see many victories.


BUT the quality of the English sides is not great right now.
The first 40 minutes at WR this weekend was the worst 40 minutes of rugby that I have ever paid to watch (it was a touch sad to hear the chorus of boos at half time though).
Too many of the English sides have been blown away at the breakdown - especially against the Irish sides.
I have seen nothing in this season HC to suggest that next season will be any better, and suspect that Sainst final appearance last year was the blip rather than the general form over the last few years.

Hammer makes the good point that English playign resources are spread somewhat more widely than is the case for Ireland, so if the quality of players is near equal (and at the moment you could argue that Ireland have better quality anyway), the three main Irish Provinces will be able to put out stronger teams in the HEC than will the six English sides (especially as a few of England's recent regular internationals play for sides outside the HEC and a few are playing in France).

A few years ago, England's player strength (with some judicious imports) was concentrated in Wasps and Leicester, and before that at Bath, but in recent years it has become more spread out. Ireland has gone the other way, concentrating their playing strength in Munster and Leinster then having the good fortune to find some good players in Ulster as well. As such, it is not a huge surprise that our deomestic league teams are not making the same impresion at European level as was the case 5+ years ago.

What we do about it, if anything, is an interesting question. Do we get rid of any salary cap, so let the rich clubs buy their way to success? Do we abandon the club league and go to a regional system (the sound of explosions in the background is all the Bath and Glarster fans spontaneously combusting)? Do we go to a franchise system rather than having promotion and relegation? To be honest, I much prefer we stick with what we have and just try to produce another generation of top class players - something we haven't managed since the early 00s.

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Hammer makes the good point that English playign resources are spread somewhat more widely than is the case for Ireland, so if the quality of players is near equal (and at the moment you could argue that Ireland have better quality anyway), the three main Irish Provinces will be able to put out stronger teams in the HEC than will the six English sides (especially as a few of England's recent regular internationals play for sides outside the HEC and a few are playing in France).

This point is often made, but perhaps not as cogently here.

A few years ago, England's player strength (with some judicious imports) was concentrated in Wasps and Leicester, and before that at Bath, but in recent years it has become more spread out. Ireland has gone the other way, concentrating their playing strength in Munster and Leinster then having the good fortune to find some good players in Ulster as well. As such, it is not a huge surprise that our deomestic league teams are not making the same impresion at European level as was the case 5+ years ago.

I still say that English club sides over performed back then (the Bath side that won was some way from their best earlier in teh decade). do not forget Saints 2000 win.

What we do about it, if anything, is an interesting question. Do we get rid of any salary cap, so let the rich clubs buy their way to success? Do we abandon the club league and go to a regional system (the sound of explosions in the background is all the Bath and Glarster fans spontaneously combusting)? Do we go to a franchise system rather than having promotion and relegation? To be honest, I much prefer we stick with what we have and just try to produce another generation of top class players - something we haven't managed since the early 00s.

I would like to see the cap set at a % of income - but then I would say that. Club rugby is right for England, we just need to develop a few more grizzled forwards, rather than the plethora of smooth cheeked choir boys we have right now.

Its worth noting for those who say that the Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously that Leinster fielded a 'weakened' side on saturday missing the likes of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Fitzgerald through injury and with Mike Ross, Reddan, Jennings, Toner etc. on the bench and lost Healy early through injury.

They still hammered Montpellier.

Leinster could almost field two sides who could challenge for the title.

Munster have a load of injuries but have finished unbeaten. These sides have serious depth.

That is why they can compete on two fronts. Can the big English sides say the same right now?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I don't think English club rugby is in the toilet. However I do think that the major problem is that Sky (in particular) do love to talk up the English clubs, and I understand that they have to try and sell the clubs as being exceptional due to having the Jeff coverage/Rugby club etc. Unfortunately, from the way I see it, this does lead to a cocky/over confident/arrogence in the fans/pundits that the Jeff sides are world beaters, and that with exception of Munster, Leinster and the French, that they have a god given right to whup any other side.

SO unfortunately with the opinion that the Rabo sides are not much cop being ingrained, then when the Jeff sides fail to demolish them, the only conclusion is that the Jeff sides are not firing etc.

I have to agree with this,

Before the start of the season, did sky pundits think that Ulster had a chance of qualifing ahead of Tigers, that Connacht were capable of causing the scares way and win at home that they did? that Cardiff and Edinburgh were better than London Irish, and I expect thay though Northampton would make a real go of the group maybe as best paced runners up

Also remember that the pool stages were good for Ireland and Scotland.

OK for France

urine poor for England and Wales.

There is no cause for panic. Sure, there’s only 1 English team in the hunt for the cup, but they happen to be the league champs and have a home QF and SF and the final is held in London! They could easily win it yet.

You just have to take the rough with the smooth, Sky provide a massive amount of cash to the English league and teams that play in the HC, but Sky are a company, they’re not a benevolent bunch that show sport for the good of their health, they talk up/talk down teams and leagues because it’s the perceived public perception. They’re essentially a tabloid newpaper, in a sports network frock. This season English rugby is “waaaaay fat and totally has cellulite on its hole” but next season it will have “amazingly lost like, 3 stone and is looking, OMG sooooo hot!”. It’s the world we live in unfortunately.

Mick - you saying that english Rugby is basically Kerry Katona?

in a word.

Yes.

You &^%*$£*er.

Funniest analogy in 606V2 history

And oddly, I think largely correct. The only exception wrt Sky's operations being the (football) Premier League, where even Wigan have to be hyped as Cheryl Cole...

roddersm wrote:Its worth noting for those who say that the Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously that Leinster fielded a 'weakened' side on saturday missing the likes of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Fitzgerald through injury and with Mike Ross, Reddan, Jennings, Toner etc. on the bench and lost Healy early through injury.

They still hammered Montpellier.

Leinster could almost field two sides who could challenge for the title.

Munster have a load of injuries but have finished unbeaten. These sides have serious depth.

That is why they can compete on two fronts. Can the big English sides say the same right now?

Could the English sides afford to? No
I don't think the any side with a salary cap could afford to run one side full of England squad players and another with back up to replace them

What surprises me between the teams is the level of coaching nouce.

It seems to me that the Irish sides are far far better coached and trained then any other side. Take the breakdown; the way they hit it and put players in to it is far and away ahead of any other teams in the comp. Yes Toulouse, Quins, Saracens, Glos, Edi etc can all manage this every once in a while but the 3 top Irish teams have figured out a formula to succeed here 99% of games.

It may just be a blip but coaching in Ireland leads the way currently.

maybe Kerry Kationa is a bit unfair, made me laugh though. jennifer ellison may be closer to the truth.

Did anyone see Reading got a russian billioaire sugar daddy, I wonder if he could be intrested in London Irish as well???

Knackeredknees wrote:

roddersm wrote:Its worth noting for those who say that the Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously that Leinster fielded a 'weakened' side on saturday missing the likes of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Fitzgerald through injury and with Mike Ross, Reddan, Jennings, Toner etc. on the bench and lost Healy early through injury.

They still hammered Montpellier.

Leinster could almost field two sides who could challenge for the title.

Munster have a load of injuries but have finished unbeaten. These sides have serious depth.

That is why they can compete on two fronts. Can the big English sides say the same right now?

Could the English sides afford to? No
I don't think the any side with a salary cap could afford to run one side full of England squad players and another with back up to replace them

How much is the English Salary cap? I thought that the English tended to run on a larger budget than the Celtic sides anyway, and it was the desire to represent their national side that kept the Irish stars playing for the Provinces.

Yappy
As well as coaching, it could also be that the current Law interpretations and tactics play to the strengths (literally) of the Irish players - POC, SOB, Ferris etc are all noted for their power and upper body strength, which is a big advantage with the type of maul tackle that the Laws favour.

Knackeredknees wrote:

roddersm wrote:Its worth noting for those who say that the Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously that Leinster fielded a 'weakened' side on saturday missing the likes of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Fitzgerald through injury and with Mike Ross, Reddan, Jennings, Toner etc. on the bench and lost Healy early through injury.

They still hammered Montpellier.

Leinster could almost field two sides who could challenge for the title.

Munster have a load of injuries but have finished unbeaten. These sides have serious depth.

That is why they can compete on two fronts. Can the big English sides say the same right now?

Could the English sides afford to? No
I don't think the any side with a salary cap could afford to run one side full of England squad players and another with back up to replace them

If the English teams stopped paying for below average journeymen and focused on building proper academies - or even giving some of those academy players a run they could well afford it. Leinsters current squad was not built around a chequebook! The salary cap might be an issue but not as big an issue as bad squad management.

The current salary cap means that any academy players who play in a certain number of games have all of their salary in the cap. Therefore clubs tend to limit the number of games they play. The rules are changing (next year I think) so that if a player has come through the academy they get money off the cap (don't know the exact rules). Even with this there are loads of young players who are first choice (or were young when they became first choice).

the salary cap is no excuse. Edinburgh have way less money than the english teams salary cap

And managed to get to the quarter finals for the first time in how long? A one off topping of a pool means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I think an 'average' year for English sides is 2 Quarter Finalists, a good year is 3, and a disappointing year is 1 club in the QF. Therefore this is a disappointing year, but could easily have been an average one. If Sky are making a lot of noise it might be partly out of concern for the TV audiences.

There's no need for drastic action. English rugby has a missing group aged 27-32, and this is really hurting the AP sides but the academies are churning out young players who are steadily gaining experience (witness for instance 18 year old David Sisi for LI, or 19 year old Tom Heathcote who played FH away to the side that finished second in the French league last season and who will now fight it out with the hugely talented George Ford for the u20 FH shirt). In a few years time the depth of the English player base will be considerably improved on today.

The Irish provinces are doing a lot right. I'm sure part of that is they have more money to spend, but it's in English rugby's best interests to keep the salary cap even if it does leave us in the short-term with a disadvantage. The incomeing restrictions in foreign players will probably have an impact on how effective the Irish sides are over the next few years.

I spoke too soon. I looked at an article in Equipe and some of the commentary after it bemoaned "the night of rugby of the tricolours". It's not just the English press/fans who are drama queens.

This may come from my background as a teacher but just because some do especially well it does not mean that the rest are dullards.

I think the English game needs a salary cap, otherwise we might see unsustainable wage inflation like the roundball game.

Anyway, Quins were two points away from going through to the Quarter-finals, in which case we would have had 2 clubs there and this wouldn't be an issue. Yes, Leicester and Northampton suffered heavy defeats, but we're not a million miles away and, as others have said, the young talent is now coming through from the academies and we could hopefully see another golden period for English rugby in the next few years (like 2000-2004 was).

robbo277 wrote:I think the English game needs a salary cap, otherwise we might see unsustainable wage inflation like the roundball game.

Anyway, Quins were two points away from going through to the Quarter-finals, in which case we would have had 2 clubs there and this wouldn't be an issue. Yes, Leicester and Northampton suffered heavy defeats, but we're not a million miles away and, as others have said, the young talent is now coming through from the academies and we could hopefully see another golden period for English rugby in the next few years (like 2000-2004 was).

Agree wholeheartedly! Quins this is your fault!! You could have knocked out Toulouse too sigh.

Got to say thanks to Gloucester. You helped make sure Sarries were guaranteed a home quarter.

Sarries did very well to top that group convincingly.

Harlequins and Gloucester acquitted themselves quite well, though could have done better. They weren't bad. Both beat Toulouse.

Leicester have been a declining force in Europe for a few years and bumped into two up and coming teams. But the Tigers have everything they need to rebuild quickly. Money, fans, great stadium, reputation. They could bounce back as quickly as Munster seem to have done. The reds were apparently finished as a European force last year.

Bath and London Irish were rubbish. The biggest disappointment was Northampton. Last years final appearance looked like a springboard for future success. But they conceded two bonus point wins on their home ground to Munster and Scarlets. With Ashton on his way out it looks like their European progression may stall.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sarries did very well to top that group convincingly.

Harlequins and Gloucester acquitted themselves quite well, though could have done better. They weren't bad. Both beat Toulouse.

Leicester have been a declining force in Europe for a few years and bumped into two up and coming teams. But the Tigers have everything they need to rebuild quickly. Money, fans, great stadium, reputation. They could bounce back as quickly as Munster seem to have done. The reds were apparently finished as a European force last year.

Bath and London Irish were rubbish. The biggest disappointment was Northampton. Last years final appearance looked like a springboard for future success. But they conceded two bonus point wins on their home ground to Munster and Scarlets. With Ashton on his way out it looks like their European progression may stall.

Regarding Leicester, I think we need someone to teach our players about the breakdown. In years gone by when we were at the top of the game, we were brilliant at the breakdown. Now we're not and it's showing in our results.

Intotouch wrote:Had Connacht made one slip up Harlequins would be in the quarters. Had Ulster and Munster not had excellent years then two other English sides would have gone through.

Had Munster not played so superbly and qualified Scarlets would have gone through they are a Welsh Team not an English one. If Leinster had not of also played so well then a Scottish team, Glasgow would have qualified.

If Saracens were not such a brilliant team then maybe the Ospreys would have qualified...?

Maybe the quality of the opposition has improved far more than you suppose...?

Maesteg, I'll give you that Ulster did brilliantly this year - but Munster and Harlequins are a slightly different situation.

I think it is fair to say that Munster had a pretty shaky start to their campaign. If ROG had missed either of those two after-the-last-minute drop goals, their qualification campaign would have been much harder.

By the same coin, if Nick Evans had kicked either of two place kicks on Friday, or the ball hadn't bounced over Ugo Monye's head off the sodden ground, Quins would almost certainly have qualified as group winners.

Rugby is a game of very fine margins. What this season's Heineken has shown us is that the gap between nearly all the teams playing in it is very small and can turn on the bounce of the ball.

For English rugby, I am not that worried that only Sarries made the quarters. These things happen. I am worried that England should have had 4 or 5 teams in the mix on the last day (it was never likely that both of Glaws and Quins would both qualify). Instead there were two.

Fair points Poorfour and I agree.

England supplied some good teams as per usual, they are not in any dire straights. But it is a good idea to always review your predicament with respect to international opposition.

We both agree that the competition is tougher year on in the HEC. If England expects to have two teams in the last eight then they need more teams to perform like Leinster, Munster, and Saracens and guaranty their position during the middle weekends.

No Pool was easy.

Lets face it Quins should have qualified, quite how they screwed it up is still a mystery.

But neither they nor Saracens look like serious contenders to take the cup.

They cant blame a lack of sqaud size or the world cup impact soley for this. The Welsh regions will on average have given more players to the world cup, they were at the world cup longer, they also have the LV games and they had the Shane Wiliams benefit match. The Welsh regions arent even the best sides in the Rabo, whereas all the top sides in the Jeff ( plus some of the middle ones) were in the comeptition.

Its quite simple, the English clubs just arent good enough. This decline over the last 3 years has coincided with a drop in the number and quality of foriegn stars playing in the premiership.
Coincidence?

Could it be that English rugby is infact pretty mediocre, and that this alleged generation of wonderkids that woudlve won us the world cup if only the evil Martin Johnson hadnt been sent by New Zelaand to destroy us by picking their agent Hape in actual fact are not world class players.

Guess we'll find out come six nations time.

Right now Im pretty negative about the quality of ENglish rugby though.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Lets face it Quins should have qualified, quite how they screwed it up is still a mystery.

But neither they nor Saracens look like serious contenders to take the cup.

They cant blame a lack of sqaud size or the world cup impact soley for this. The Welsh regions will on average have given more players to the world cup, they were at the world cup longer, they also have the LV games and they had the Shane Wiliams benefit match. The Welsh regions arent even the best sides in the Rabo, whereas all the top sides in the Jeff ( plus some of the middle ones) were in the comeptition.

Its quite simple, the English clubs just arent good enough. This decline over the last 3 years has coincided with a drop in the number and quality of foriegn stars playing in the premiership.
Coincidence?

Could it be that English rugby is infact pretty mediocre, and that this alleged generation of wonderkids that woudlve won us the world cup if only the evil Martin Johnson hadnt been sent by New Zelaand to destroy us by picking their agent Hape in actual fact are not world class players.

Guess we'll find out come six nations time.

Right now Im pretty negative about the quality of ENglish rugby though.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I completely disagree. Saracens are serious contenders. Simply because of home advantage. Continue to write us off if you want. The bookies seem to think we can do it.Saracens are currently the strongest English side.

beshocked wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Lets face it Quins should have qualified, quite how they screwed it up is still a mystery.

But neither they nor Saracens look like serious contenders to take the cup.

They cant blame a lack of sqaud size or the world cup impact soley for this. The Welsh regions will on average have given more players to the world cup, they were at the world cup longer, they also have the LV games and they had the Shane Wiliams benefit match. The Welsh regions arent even the best sides in the Rabo, whereas all the top sides in the Jeff ( plus some of the middle ones) were in the comeptition.

Its quite simple, the English clubs just arent good enough. This decline over the last 3 years has coincided with a drop in the number and quality of foriegn stars playing in the premiership.
Coincidence?

Could it be that English rugby is infact pretty mediocre, and that this alleged generation of wonderkids that woudlve won us the world cup if only the evil Martin Johnson hadnt been sent by New Zelaand to destroy us by picking their agent Hape in actual fact are not world class players.

Guess we'll find out come six nations time.

Right now Im pretty negative about the quality of ENglish rugby though.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I completely disagree. Saracens are serious contenders. Simply because of home advantage. Continue to write us off if you want. The bookies seem to think we can do it.Saracens are currently the strongest English side.

Tigers and Saints were the strongest English sides when they last reached the finals, they got "written off" by the opposition and scoreboard pretty quickly.
Get a top class Tri Nations fullback in and Id give them a solid chance.

The difference if that Saracens do reach the final they'll be at Twickenham (home advantage).

Top class full back? Why?

Btw I am not saying we are favourites. Leinster still are then Munster but who knows.....

Enlish rugby is far from declining, just look at resources and crowd numbers you have. Lets be honest here England were probably the first northern hemisphere country to go "fully" professional and were the trail blazers of there day. During the nineties and early naughties you had forwards that resembled chisled adonises, we all had beer belly fat lumps and as a result England and it's clubs were just fitter and bullied teams into sub- mission. Now, we all have god like players and the days of the English rolling maul from their own twenty two to the opposion twenty two and then dropping a goal or kicking a penalty, then scrummaging the oposition into dust and breaking free to score tries in the last twenty minutes are gone. It is not that English rugby is in decline, it is just a fact that everyone else is catching up/ caught up/ or taken over (Ireland). English rugby has never evolved from when it was showing everybody else what to do, I have said before on other threads, you can call it evolution, or revolution, but English rugby has got to move on. Sadly, I think that the clubs hold to much power for the RFU to do anything about it, but something needs to be done or all the nations that are catching up/ caught up, will overtake you and then England will be the one's having to play catch up to some other trail blazers. So in a nutshell, English rugby has not altered in the last twenty years and verybody else has, us Welsh were taking kicking and screaming into regionalism, some people still kicking and screaming, but two grand slams and a world cup semi final cannot be wrong, it is only a matter of time before we see Wales baring the fruit of their labours, so decline, NO, stayed the same for two decades, YES.

roddersm wrote:Its worth noting for those who say that the Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously that Leinster fielded a 'weakened' side on saturday missing the likes of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Fitzgerald through injury and with Mike Ross, Reddan, Jennings, Toner etc. on the bench and lost Healy early through injury.

They still hammered Montpellier.

Leinster could almost field two sides who could challenge for the title.

Munster have a load of injuries but have finished unbeaten. These sides have serious depth.

That is why they can compete on two fronts. Can the big English sides say the same right now?

+1

Thats the main difference I think and most people overlook it. Leinster and Munster have very big squads and can rotate. Toulouse rotates their squad too but nobody accuses them of not taking the French league seriously. Last season in the Magners league/Pro 12 for example Munsters "weakened" teams included the likes of Mick O'Driscoll, Donnacha Ryan, Mike Sherry, Peter O'Mahony, Damien Varley, Marcus Horan etc. Simon Zebo couldn't make the 'weak' team squad and Connor Murray only got a run out at the end of the season because of injuries.

People are going over the top in their criticism of the English game. If they increase the salary cap a bit, build up bigger squad etc they'll be harder to beat. They're not that far away.

beshocked wrote:The difference if that Saracens do reach the final they'll be at Twickenham (home advantage).

Top class full back? Why?

Btw I am not saying we are favourites. Leinster still are then Munster but who knows.....

Ill put it this way,

after the Irish Im looking to France before South Africa London Watford.

People still aren't getting it. The reason Munster and Leinster can rotate their squads and still win is because they're in a Mickey Mouse league. And it's a Mickey Mouse league because they rotate their squads.

You can't get any clearer than that.

HammerofThunor wrote:People still aren't getting it. The reason Munster and Leinster can rotate their squads and still win is because they're in a Mickey Mouse league. And it's a Mickey Mouse league because they rotate their squads.

You can't get any clearer than that.

No it is you who are not getting 'it', as I've stated above Leinster have rotated their team quite a bit in the HEC also and Munster are down to their bare bones and still took saints to the cleaners. Is the HEC mickey mouse as well?

The reality is that if both those sides were in the AP they'd still be at the top end of that table and exactly were they are in the HEC. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. Both their squads are superior to anything in the AP right now.

Ulster have struggled a bit in the League due to injury and the RWC because they don't have the same depth but now with close to a full deck are going well in both comps.

I agree in the main with what LordDowlais has said, England were the first of the home nations to fully embrace professionalism and thus they reaped the benefits, having a very strong club platform and international side during the 90s and early 00's.

Since then the full effect of professionalism can be seen in the Irish game, the Scottish sides have been better season on season (last season seemed to be a blip in their trends) and the welsh sides are progressing slowly, and the younger players coming through seem to be strengthening the regions and seem to be a lot more professional in their attitude than the "galacticos" era of players.

Dont think England are in dire straights, I think they've lacked top level coaching perhaps at club level, but the players are there, and are coming through.

Also, Id say Sarries do look like genuine contenders, they may not have set the tournament alight with dazzling games or tries, but they've been pretty ruthless, consistently, and their defence/work at the breakdown is very very strong. With a home draw they can certainly aim to make a real fist of it.

The general idea of English rugby being kerry katona has had me in creases for a while now.

HammerofThunor wrote:People still aren't getting it. The reason Munster and Leinster can rotate their squads and still win is because they're in a Mickey Mouse league. And it's a Mickey Mouse league because they rotate their squads.

You can't get any clearer than that.

Which is why they rested their players for Montpellier to ensure they were ready for the Rabo game right .....

I don't like seeing people knock the Aviva premiership or the Pro 12. The AP seems to be going through a transitional period and as we all know things go in cycles. Not too long ago the English league was the best in Europe. The pro 12 is going from strength to strength and will continue to get better. Comparing the 2 is like comparing apples and oranges sometimes.

HammerofThunor wrote:People still aren't getting it. The reason Munster and Leinster can rotate their squads and still win is because they're in a Mickey Mouse league. And it's a Mickey Mouse league because they rotate their squads.

You can't get any clearer than that.

The Top 14 must be a mickey mouse league too using that logic because Toulouse can rotate as they please and still win games. Its tiring to hear people constantly trying to knock the Pro 12. Its a newish tournament and improving year on year.

Toulouse, Munster, Leinster etc all have big squads which enable them to compete strongly at the business end of the season. Connacht are at the opposite end of the scale. Since september they have had to flog their players and only got their first win in 14 games on friday night. They started off the season well and got a few wins but because they cannot rotate their performances have dropped off since then. They're not a bad team when they have their full team out and the loses are not for a want of trying.

So squad rotation = freshness = better performances from players = more wins. As a Munster fan I can see how rotating the squad makes the team stronger.

Comfort wrote:I agree in the main with what LordDowlais has said, England were the first of the home nations to fully embrace professionalism and thus they reaped the benefits, having a very strong club platform and international side during the 90s and early 00's.

Since then the full effect of professionalism can be seen in the Irish game, the Scottish sides have been better season on season (last season seemed to be a blip in their trends) and the welsh sides are progressing slowly, and the younger players coming through seem to be strengthening the regions and seem to be a lot more professional in their attitude than the "galacticos" era of players.

Dont think England are in dire straights, I think they've lacked top level coaching perhaps at club level, but the players are there, and are coming through.

Also, Id say Sarries do look like genuine contenders, they may not have set the tournament alight with dazzling games or tries, but they've been pretty ruthless, consistently, and their defence/work at the breakdown is very very strong. With a home draw they can certainly aim to make a real fist of it.

The general idea of English rugby being kerry katona has had me in creases for a while now.

But, comfort, do you agree that the English game needs to evolve in some way for the English style is not overtaken by other nations style ? I for one do think so,but unfortunately I also think that the elite clubs in England hold to much power and the RFU would be to scared to take them to war. Can you imagine Leicester playing second fiddle to "their" region. I can here Peter Wheeler starting now

LD, I think all teams need to constantly evolve their approach to the game to get the upperhand, I think thats where the best coaching comes in, New Zealand have always been 1 step ahead, partly due to the playing level they are already at (meaining people having to reach/improve on that level to get to the highest level possible), and down to their coaches being the best/most forward thinking.

We've seen with Wales, the players are sometimes Jeckyll and Hyde for Regions and country, and I know who i'd say is the better coach by a country mile.

I think coaching is sometimes really overlooked, not just good coaches, but coaches who look to the future and have the inspiration to try things a little differently and a willingness to adapt.

I also think theres still a place in the game for the "old-fashioned" forward based game. But to me, the type of game you play is dependant on the player resources you have available to you. I think the coaches in England aren't necessarily adapting their tactics to the players/teams strengths and perhaps thats why we see these teams so often looking to bring in players to fill particular roles rather than adapt strategy.

I suppose you could apply that to any country going through a bad patch...

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:People still aren't getting it. The reason Munster and Leinster can rotate their squads and still win is because they're in a Mickey Mouse league. And it's a Mickey Mouse league because they rotate their squads.

You can't get any clearer than that.

The Top 14 must be a mickey mouse league too using that logic because Toulouse can rotate as they please and still win games

There is no logic in the quoted statement, that was the point. Tuatology is lost on some people.

I cut my rugby teeth on the Magners league and really enjoyed watching it while I was liking in Swansea. Don't catch it some much as I want to watch the English games and my wife gets annoyed if I spend too much time watching rugby.

On a kind of side note, I don't accept the guff that's been spread for years about the better skills and attractive rugby in the Magners (as I said I don't see much anymore so it might have changed). The Ospreys team around 2006 was built on solid forwards, solid defence and the odd bit of magic from Williams. It was often bemoaned that the attack was relatively poor (which is why there was surprised when the attack coach replaced Lyn when he left). I've seen plenty of dire games in both leagues and plenty of great games in both leagues.

LordDowlais wrote: Can you imagine Leicester playing second fiddle to "their" region. I can here Peter Wheeler starting now

What what what?





Thing is leicester got tooled against Ulster by trying to play an open game and not turning every ruck into a bunfight. That and refusing to tackle anywaone.