About v2Scotland's 6N Back Row
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UlstermaninGlasgow
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Geordie
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Scotland's 6N Back Row
by Redrage Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:52 pm
Now that Brown is out for the campaign, who would we like to see in the back row?
With Gray and Hamilton in the 2nd row, I'd like to see both Rennie and Barclay on either side of Denton in the back row. it might sound daft to have 2 open sides in the same team, but they both have fantstic all round game and Denton is a very good ball carrier. I think it would balance out quite well and I am not normally one for leaning towards copping out of big decisions like which 7 to play.
If Dentons calf strain lingers on, who are we likely to see at 8? didn't really work out for Barclay there at Glasgow recently. Will there be a recall for Simon Taylor, Johnny Beattie or even Ally Hogg?
With Gray and Hamilton in the 2nd row, I'd like to see both Rennie and Barclay on either side of Denton in the back row. it might sound daft to have 2 open sides in the same team, but they both have fantstic all round game and Denton is a very good ball carrier. I think it would balance out quite well and I am not normally one for leaning towards copping out of big decisions like which 7 to play.
If Dentons calf strain lingers on, who are we likely to see at 8? didn't really work out for Barclay there at Glasgow recently. Will there be a recall for Simon Taylor, Johnny Beattie or even Ally Hogg?
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by Geordie Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:03 pm
it might sound daft to have 2 open sides in the same team,
England won the WC with 2 7's in the team....
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:05 pm
The backrow now picks itself.
Rennie and Barclay both playing would not work, we need a chopper. The ammount of tackling Kelly Brown got through was crazy.
6. Stroks
7. Barclay/Rennie depending on who we play
8. Dozer Denton
I posted this up on another topic and I think it shows what I mean. I seriously would not be happy with both Barclay and Rennie starting for Scotland. Both are specialist 7s and we need a specialist 6 to keep the backrow balenced.
Rennie and Barclay both playing would not work, we need a chopper. The ammount of tackling Kelly Brown got through was crazy.
6. Stroks
7. Barclay/Rennie depending on who we play
8. Dozer Denton
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Comparing Rennie and Barclay is a bit like comparing a rally car and a formula 1 car. Not saying who is who but they both have differant skills that make both of them very effective openside flankers.
Barclay is tough, nuggety and brave, and scraps for the ball on the deck with superb skill. He wins a lot of dead ball turnovers and can draw good penalties from tackled players. However he does sail quite close to the wind himself and is prone to givign away penalties. There is no doubt that Barclay was a better player in 2010, and does seem to have lost his edge a wee bit. He is still a fantastic player.
Rennie on the other hand has phenomenal upper body strength and is very good at stripping possesion from players who are not on the ground or have been held up. This skill I think would make him more useful for playing against Wales or Ireland who have a lot of powerful ball carriers who like to try and smash through the gain line. Rennie I also think is probably a more powerful ball carrier.
We should be greatful that we have 2 fantastic opensides and I think we should play them against the teams that we can maximise their abilities.
England - Barclay
Wales - Rennie
Italy - Rennie
Ireland - Rennie
France - Barclay
With each making cameos from the bench.
I posted this up on another topic and I think it shows what I mean. I seriously would not be happy with both Barclay and Rennie starting for Scotland. Both are specialist 7s and we need a specialist 6 to keep the backrow balenced.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by funnyExiledScot Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:33 pm
Agree with Radge on this. Strokosch isn't a fashionable player among Scotland fans it seems but he's in very good form with Gloucester at the moment and has firmly cemented his place in that side. He doesn't carry as well as Brown, but he does everything else.
Scotland:
6. Strokosch 7.Rennie 8.Denton
Bench: Vernon
Scotland A:
6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Beattie
Bench: McInally
That's how I see it at the moment. There's a good argument for switching McInally and Beattie based on recent performances but I'd stick with Beattie personally.
Scotland:
6. Strokosch 7.Rennie 8.Denton
Bench: Vernon
Scotland A:
6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Beattie
Bench: McInally
That's how I see it at the moment. There's a good argument for switching McInally and Beattie based on recent performances but I'd stick with Beattie personally.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by Tattie Scones RRN Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:36 pm
KickAndChase wrote:Steve Shingler.
Next question.
I liked that.
Agreed that Stroks needs to come in for Brown now.
No Vernon........I mean it.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by luvtotup Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:48 pm
We could really do with Beattie back in the mix- when he has come on for Glasgow recently he has played well. Ok he got isolated for a critical penalty against Leinster but the other penalty was a strange call and in any case resulted from one of his trademark bullocking runs. Dont know what the problem is but he is still a class act.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by funnyExiledScot Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:52 pm
I really don't understand why Scotland fans on here don't like Vernon. In the same breath as saying how Scotland needs to be more expansive, our fastest loose forward seems to be discarded.
If Scotland are to adopt a fast paced offloading game based on the Edinburgh model, why not use Vernon, at least from the bench? We have a big and powerful front five, so you could argue we might be able to afford a lighter back row including players like Rennie and Vernon to get around the park.
I'm not sure people quite appreciate Vernon's contribution in the World Cup. He completely rescued us against Romania, and was one of our best performers against England. He came off the bench strongly for Sale the other night against Brive and when not injured he's played some nice stuff for Sale this season, who often use him as a 6 rather than an 8, which is handy in terms of versatility.
I know that Denton and McInally are the shiny new things to get excited about, but I don't know what Vernon's done wrong really. He's a little on the light side, and for that reason I'd start with Denton, but if we're looking for a quicker style of game then Vernon fits the bill perfectly.
If Scotland are to adopt a fast paced offloading game based on the Edinburgh model, why not use Vernon, at least from the bench? We have a big and powerful front five, so you could argue we might be able to afford a lighter back row including players like Rennie and Vernon to get around the park.
I'm not sure people quite appreciate Vernon's contribution in the World Cup. He completely rescued us against Romania, and was one of our best performers against England. He came off the bench strongly for Sale the other night against Brive and when not injured he's played some nice stuff for Sale this season, who often use him as a 6 rather than an 8, which is handy in terms of versatility.
I know that Denton and McInally are the shiny new things to get excited about, but I don't know what Vernon's done wrong really. He's a little on the light side, and for that reason I'd start with Denton, but if we're looking for a quicker style of game then Vernon fits the bill perfectly.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:59 pm
fES, Vernon is a decent club player, nothing more. His 'speed around the park' is made far too much of - none of our backrow boys are exactly slouches, but they all have functions ie fetchers, like Barclay and Rennie, ball-carriers, like Denton and Beattie, or choppers, like Kelly B and Stroks. Vernon IS 'on the light side' and simply doesn't fulfill any one of those functions imo. Yes, he played well against Romania, but I didn't think he was up to much against England. He's been ok for Sale, but has struggled to make a starting spot his own when all their players are fit
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by UlstermaninGlasgow Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:08 pm
Strokosch is pretty much like for like in terms of ability at 6, although maybe not the prescence that KB brings to the team.
Toss up between Rennie and Barclay at the minute, with Barcs not being in great form but the experienced head and will probably be the better option against England at least.
Denton/McInally/Vernon - Well you could pick either of the two Edinburgh lads although has Denton not played more at 6 than 8 in the past while? The problem I have with Vernon is simply the fact that he isn't playing at 8 and never seemed completely confident at the base of the scrum... In fact I'd go for Denton even though he's moving around a bit! Vernon is a great impact sub but I just don't think he's currently better than Denton.
Another point is if Denton is in the side and he's a bit more of a lump than RV is there a case for keeping the Glasgow partnership at 2nd row? Al has been in some great form of late and I will freely admit I had him down as benching but with KB out is there a shout for him coming in to add a carrying prescence?
Toss up between Rennie and Barclay at the minute, with Barcs not being in great form but the experienced head and will probably be the better option against England at least.
Denton/McInally/Vernon - Well you could pick either of the two Edinburgh lads although has Denton not played more at 6 than 8 in the past while? The problem I have with Vernon is simply the fact that he isn't playing at 8 and never seemed completely confident at the base of the scrum... In fact I'd go for Denton even though he's moving around a bit! Vernon is a great impact sub but I just don't think he's currently better than Denton.
Another point is if Denton is in the side and he's a bit more of a lump than RV is there a case for keeping the Glasgow partnership at 2nd row? Al has been in some great form of late and I will freely admit I had him down as benching but with KB out is there a shout for him coming in to add a carrying prescence?
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by funnyExiledScot Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:10 pm
I do see what you're saying, Vernon doesn't comfortably fit into a box as a fetcher, ball-carrier or chopper. In reality he's a little bit of everything with a sharp turn of pace. Jack of all trades master of none.
As I said, Denton would be my first pick. I just think Vernon should be on the bench ahead of the other alternatives in the squad. I see you'd pick Barclay as you back row bench player - given he only covers 7, whereas Vernon can be used across the back row if needed, I'd go with Vernon. I think he brings more impact. That said, if the original selection were to be playing well I wouldn't be making any substitutions.
As I said, Denton would be my first pick. I just think Vernon should be on the bench ahead of the other alternatives in the squad. I see you'd pick Barclay as you back row bench player - given he only covers 7, whereas Vernon can be used across the back row if needed, I'd go with Vernon. I think he brings more impact. That said, if the original selection were to be playing well I wouldn't be making any substitutions.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by nickj Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:19 pm
Well said FES.
I think it depends on what game we want to play. I have Vernon on the bench in my preferred and predicted 15's. But I think there's every chance Vernon will play 8 and Denton 6 (his club position).
For me Vernon suits playing on the front foot in a loose game. To date England vs Scotland games arent that loose. But that could change this year if we play the right game and the fact Vernon is performing in the Guiness and covers 2 of the back row roles cements his place in the match day 22 for the England game for me.
Yes, he's more lightweight than Beattie but he's got more to offer than speed. He is a line out option and he's a good support runner. All too often our breaks get isoltated, Vernon negates that and I like the fact his skills blend well with Denton's.
Who ever misses out on the 7 jersey from Barcs and Rosco only covers one position and are therefore highly unlikely to get a place on the bench.
But anyhoo. Its cracking to have options, even in the absence of good guys like Brown.
I think it depends on what game we want to play. I have Vernon on the bench in my preferred and predicted 15's. But I think there's every chance Vernon will play 8 and Denton 6 (his club position).
For me Vernon suits playing on the front foot in a loose game. To date England vs Scotland games arent that loose. But that could change this year if we play the right game and the fact Vernon is performing in the Guiness and covers 2 of the back row roles cements his place in the match day 22 for the England game for me.
Yes, he's more lightweight than Beattie but he's got more to offer than speed. He is a line out option and he's a good support runner. All too often our breaks get isoltated, Vernon negates that and I like the fact his skills blend well with Denton's.
Who ever misses out on the 7 jersey from Barcs and Rosco only covers one position and are therefore highly unlikely to get a place on the bench.
But anyhoo. Its cracking to have options, even in the absence of good guys like Brown.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:20 pm
Unless you're Lineen, in which case he covers 1-15!funnyExiledScot wrote:I do see what you're saying, Vernon doesn't comfortably fit into a box as a fetcher, ball-carrier or chopper. In reality he's a little bit of everything with a sharp turn of pace. Jack of all trades master of none.
As I said, Denton would be my first pick. I just think Vernon should be on the bench ahead of the other alternatives in the squad. I see you'd pick Barclay as you back row bench player - given he only covers 7, whereas Vernon can be used across the back row if needed, I'd go with Vernon. I think he brings more impact. That said, if the original selection were to be playing well I wouldn't be making any substitutions.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by Scot Abroad Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:54 pm
Scottish backrowers stats
Stroks 108kg 6’3”
Barclay 101kg 6’3”
Brown 106kg 6’4”
Rennie 99kg 6’
Vernon 107kg 6’6”
Denton 113kg 6’5”
McInaly 105kg 6’3”
Harley 111kg 6’6”
Vernon certainly isn’t “lightweight” from these stats (unless he’s lost weight since the WC). He just doesn’t play like he’s 6’6” and 107kg, Fusaro at 5’11” and 95kgs hits harder than him. I’d prefer to see Strokosch at 6, Rennie/Barclay at 7 and Denton at 8. With either Barclay or Rennie on the bench.
Stroks 108kg 6’3”
Barclay 101kg 6’3”
Brown 106kg 6’4”
Rennie 99kg 6’
Vernon 107kg 6’6”
Denton 113kg 6’5”
McInaly 105kg 6’3”
Harley 111kg 6’6”
Vernon certainly isn’t “lightweight” from these stats (unless he’s lost weight since the WC). He just doesn’t play like he’s 6’6” and 107kg, Fusaro at 5’11” and 95kgs hits harder than him. I’d prefer to see Strokosch at 6, Rennie/Barclay at 7 and Denton at 8. With either Barclay or Rennie on the bench.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:46 pm
+1. Think that's it, Scot Abroad, he doesn't play like those stats suggest he could/shouldScot Abroad wrote:Scottish backrowers stats
Stroks 108kg 6’3”
Barclay 101kg 6’3”
Brown 106kg 6’4”
Rennie 99kg 6’
Vernon 107kg 6’6”
Denton 113kg 6’5”
McInaly 105kg 6’3”
Harley 111kg 6’6”
Vernon certainly isn’t “lightweight” from these stats (unless he’s lost weight since the WC). He just doesn’t play like he’s 6’6” and 107kg, Fusaro at 5’11” and 95kgs hits harder than him. I’d prefer to see Strokosch at 6, Rennie/Barclay at 7 and Denton at 8. With either Barclay or Rennie on the bench.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by 21st Century Schizoid Man Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:53 pm
After the game Roddy Grant had on Sunday should he not be in the mix ? Awesome performance. 
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by TJ1 Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:46 pm
Grant should be - every team needs a ginger monster - preferably two :-)
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:49 pm
C21st, agreed, he could very easily be - summer tour for certain
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by funnyExiledScot Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:38 am
You can't really take 3 specialist 7's in your squad though, so the question is really whether you drop Barclay or Rennie for him.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:45 am
Happy to see either one of them get a rest (poss both) and take Fusaro along as well - would need to think about that one a little morefunnyExiledScot wrote:You can't really take 3 specialist 7's in your squad though, so the question is really whether you drop Barclay or Rennie for him.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:46 am
Unless it's a very large squad?funnyExiledScot wrote:You can't really take 3 specialist 7's in your squad though, so the question is really whether you drop Barclay or Rennie for him.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:50 am
I would say in a 36 man squad there is probably just enough room for 3 specialist opensides and 3 or 4 blind sides/ no 8s.
7 is differant from 6 and 8 in terms of a 6 can normally do a decent job at 8 and vice versa. An openside flanker has a unique set of skills that sets him apart from other backrowers.
Roddy Grant has been utterly brilliant all season for Edinbugh and probably deserved a call up. Although I think with Barcs and Rennie we'll have enough to get us through the 6N.
I still probably would have included Grant if only to play for Scotland A.
7 is differant from 6 and 8 in terms of a 6 can normally do a decent job at 8 and vice versa. An openside flanker has a unique set of skills that sets him apart from other backrowers.
Roddy Grant has been utterly brilliant all season for Edinbugh and probably deserved a call up. Although I think with Barcs and Rennie we'll have enough to get us through the 6N.
I still probably would have included Grant if only to play for Scotland A.
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Re: Scotland's 6N Back Row
by funnyExiledScot Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:13 am
I'd rather take an extra back than an extra forward. Don't like taking big squads and 3 specialist 7's is overkill.
Resting Barclay in the summer probably makes the most sense in terms of workload. Take Rennie as first choice and Grant as back up.
Fusaro isn't ready for Scotland yet. I think he'll get his big chance next season if Barclay leaves Glasgow.
Resting Barclay in the summer probably makes the most sense in terms of workload. Take Rennie as first choice and Grant as back up.
Fusaro isn't ready for Scotland yet. I think he'll get his big chance next season if Barclay leaves Glasgow.
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