Lydiate, Priestland and G Jenkins

First topic message reminder :

All to miss opening 2 games of 6 Nations.

Still, Wales have not been able to put out their first chocie front row since November 2010

Lydiate is a real grafter, however I am glad that he is not rated by too many people. Look what happens to players when the Welsh public/press start rating them just look at Andrew Bishop, Andy Powell, Gareth Williams etc etc the list is unending. I would rather have Lydiate as a good hard worker, than a superstar anyday.

Lydiate is an absolute workhorse - nothing flashy but tackles, gets up tackles then gets up again. Big loss to us if he is injured - a vital part of the backrow that punished and frustrated Ireland all game.

But to be fair ti Ryan Jones - he's been awesome recently - really throwing himself in and playing his heart out - I'd prefer Lydiate at 6 but Jones is a very able replacement.

Yeah, Ryan has been very good recently. But, at international level he doesnt possess the explosive power to win collisions (due to injuries in the main). Thats the difference between Lydiate/Ryan, Lydiate wins the collisions every time he tackles or carries ball. Ryans earned the nickname "sideways" at test level.....

Ryans a very good player, but hes not a starting 6 at test level anymore.

With Lydiate/Jenkins/Roberts out (along with AW Jones) I just feel like we're missing our real 'go to' guys to get us on the front foot in the tackle area (whether thats carrying/tackling).

Bradley is playing well though and Roberts may well be in.

Ireland have been doing very well in the HC but haven't played an International game since the WC.

The coaches for the Provinces seem better quality than Kindney too - so although the Irish players are quality they may not gel for the first game - which is massive for both teams.

Just hope its as good as the last game

We're used to doing without Jenkins. James and Bevington are useful enough and I believe Healy is out of the Ireland side.

I think Priestland's injury is not a major catastrophe, provided they don't pick Hook to start and call up Stevo.

Lydiate is a big knock. Her is a very honest player and whilst I like Shingler, I hope they go for Ryan Jones on the blind side.

The only one I'm really worried about is Gethin Jenkins to be honest.
Though it's not as if Gethin is miles ahead of the other loose heads anyway at the moment.

Ryan Jones is on great form and could easily slot into blindside, with Faletau and Warburton which would make our back row more physical.

Wales have quite a few 10's who can replace Priestland and Stephen Jones normally plays well against Ireland if he is called up.

It is concerning that we have Jamie Roberts and several locks who may be out and losing too many players will cause Wales a lot of problems, but I am not going to worry until I know the lineups of both teams.

Alyn,

I am not worried about Jenkins to be honest, James is a better scrummager than him but we will lose something round the park.

Agree Jones is on good form but sorry him coming in will not make our back row more physical.

no, whilst Ryan is playing well, he's no Lydiate. look at my comments on the difference between Lydiate and Jones at test level, the physical pressence Lydiate brings in the tight exchanges is on another planet to the Ryan Jones of today. its the differences like this that change Wales from an 'almost' team to an actual winning team.

"Yeah, Ryan has been very good recently. But, at international level he doesnt possess the explosive power to win collisions (due to injuries in the main). Thats the difference between Lydiate/Ryan, Lydiate wins the collisions every time he tackles or carries ball. Ryans earned the nickname "sideways" at test level.....

Ryans a very good player, but hes not a starting 6 at test level anymore."

Jones has become very effective off the bench for Wales and in his defence when Lydiate went off during one of the WC games it wasn't that noticeable.

BUT if he's fit then Lydiate his head and shoulders above our next best 6 by some distance and yes I am including Shingler in that.

Sorry Comfort, you don't seem to understand tge difference between a blind side and an 8. Jones will be a far better player for not having the responsibility of carrying that he had as an 8. He is a shrewd operator and will compliment Warburton/Tipuric allowing Faletau to come into his own.

Glas, im very aware of the differences in the positions.

Lydiate is massive in collisions, Ferris-esque.

Ryan didnt earn the nickname sideways for nothing.

Lydiate will make the tackle on his own terms, he'll make the extra metres in contact, he leads the defensive line speed and always stops play behind the gainline, he hits every ruck and he rarelys gives away penaltys.

I just dont think Jones gives us close to as much as Lydiate does. I've stated I'd have Jones as bench cover for locks and backrow slots, but I wouldnt start him.

Tackling yes, but I seem to remember the English back row putting him on his Harries a number of times in Cardiff a year ago. Anyway, it's academic, Ianto is hobbling about on a bad ankle at the moment - Ryan will he second row.

Comfort wrote:
Lydiate is massive in collisions, Ferris-esque.

Although I prefer Lydiate to Ryan at 6, carrying is not one of Lydiate's strengths. He didn't do a great deal in the RWC.

The backrow is all about balance and Toby is the main carrier. Lydiate doesn't compare to Ferris in that area. Lydiate's strength is tackling. And rucking.

Glad we're getting back to the original topic

Lydiate is vital to the way the backrow operates and the team plays IMO, he does huge amount of work and gives Warbs a big licence to operate the way he does (I think one of the reason's he's been a lot quieter for the Blues is because of the lack of a good 6 when Molitika has been there). It's great to see him pairing up with either Warbs or Toby at the breakdown (or even Gethin sometimes), there's a great understanding.

But I think people are being harsh on Ryan, just becuase he's no Lydiate (and not many players are, especially in Wales) doesn't mean he's not a good international player - and on form a very good one.

sorry, i should've stated, i meant the collisions in general, carrying isnt his strongest point, but its not a weak point to his game either. he usually crosses the gainline and i think its improved a lot since that game against England you mention, I actually think it was after that game he was told he'd need to improve on that to give the teams options.

Glas, thats terrible news, Ianto had been playing well, typical of his career for him to pick up an injury at this point. they're dropping like flies out there.

Chunky,

This season Lydiate has upped his carrying by some considerable distance.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Chunky,

This season Lydiate has upped his carrying by some considerable distance.

At test level?

In the WC yes and continued it for the Dragons

Chunky Norwich wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Chunky,

This season Lydiate has upped his carrying by some considerable distance.

At test level?

His carrying at the world cup was very good, and he along with JD2 made most of the important carries in Wales defensive third whilst they were clearing heir lines. Roberts/Warburton grabbed the headlines but a lot of unflashy, hard-graft was done by Lydiate and JD2 to allow both of those players to shine and reap the rewards.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Glad we're getting back to the original topic

Lydiate is vital to the way the backrow operates and the team plays IMO, he does huge amount of work and gives Warbs a big licence to operate the way he does (I think one of the reason's he's been a lot quieter for the Blues is because of the lack of a good 6 when Molitika has been there). It's great to see him pairing up with either Warbs or Toby at the breakdown (or even Gethin sometimes), there's a great understanding.

But I think people are being harsh on Ryan, just becuase he's no Lydiate (and not many players are, especially in Wales) doesn't mean he's not a good international player - and on form a very good one.

Molitika hasnt been playing 6, Paterson has

Paterson if a superb tackling 6 (similar to Lydiate), but he isnt as physical in the breakdown although he makes up for it by being great in the lineout.


The MAIN reason Warburton has been quieter (though he has still be playing very well if you watch him) is that B&B have no clue how to effectively use Gethin and Warburton and play to their advantages. The way the Blues played the breakdown up in Edinburgh was criminal when Warbs and Gethin were on the field.

Comfort wrote:
His carrying at the world cup was very good, and he along with JD2 made most of the important carries in Wales defensive third whilst they were clearing heir lines..

From the official stats:

Metres carried by Dan Lydiate at Rugby World Cup 2011:

Australia - 6 metres
France - 3 metres
Ireland - 4 metres
Samoa - 0 metres
South Africa - 17 metres

Do you still think he carries alot at international level?

Ireland was his first game back from injury, we were down to 14 men against France, he went off early against Samoa and Australia was a bad-day at the office.

that uhhh, covers my arse, right

jokes aside, perhaps I still have the SA game ingrained in my brain by the sound of it, but I remember seeing him make important carries in Wales defensive 22. Maybe the stats tell us more about him being at work in the tight, forward exchanges rather than open field space to run in.

I think he's a key player. A much underrated player, and absolutely crucial to Gatlands game plan. He gets Wales out of trouble time and time again. But he isn't to be relied upon to carry.

I always though Dan was a superb defender rather than a ball carrier

Comfort wrote:Ireland was his first game back from injury, we were down to 14 men against France, he went off early against Samoa and Australia was a bad-day at the office.

that uhhh, covers my arse, right

jokes aside, perhaps I still have the SA game ingrained in my brain by the sound of it, but I remember seeing him make important carries in Wales defensive 22. Maybe the stats tell us more about him being at work in the tight, forward exchanges rather than open field space to run in.

Comfort you beat me to it, as I said he is our best No6 by some considerable distance, yes carrying wasn't his strong point but he has upped that element of it.

Along with Faletau tackles himself into the ground and if he is injured next week then I guess we will find out the hard way how invaluable he is.

I think Ryan can just about step into Lydiate's shoes. Whilst he doesn't make the hits and clean outs that Lydiate does. He makes up for it with his carrying close to the rucks and his knowledge of the breakdown. Unfortunately he hasn't been as explosive in open field since 05/07 but his experience and intelligent play shouldn't be discounted.

A little random but does anyone else see Daffyd Jones in Lydiate?
I always thought in the past our strongest back row was D Jones, M Williams and R Jones but unfortunately injuries never really allowed it too often.

you guys have said it though, i dont mean to put carrying forward as a strong point to his game, especially in comparison to his all round defensive work.

Its nice to have 3 players in form at no.6 and being able to have discussions about which of the tried & tested but wont set the world alight (Ryan Jones) and a potentially very good, pacey hard-working 6 (Shingler) we could see in Lydiates place if he's missing.

And now to create that problem at number 8, tighthead and outside centre

gowales wrote:I think Ryan can just about step into Lydiate's shoes. Whilst he doesn't make the hits and clean outs that Lydiate does. He makes up for it with his carrying close to the rucks and his knowledge of the breakdown. Unfortunately he hasn't been as explosive in open field since 05/07 but his experience and intelligent play shouldn't be discounted.

A little random but does anyone else see Daffyd Jones in Lydiate?
I always thought in the past our strongest back row was D Jones, M Williams and R Jones but unfortunately injuries never really allowed it too often.

I don't really see Ryan Jones as a downgrade from Lydiate. He just brings something different to the game and I don't even think he is that bad of a ball carrier. In saying that we might even see Ryan at second row, with Powell at 6.

gowales wrote:A little random but does anyone else see Daffyd Jones in Lydiate?

Yes I see the similarities too. Daf was a real grafter and did a heap of work that went unnoticed. And I do thin that Lydiate is the same. He may not be the best carrier of the ball, and he may not make huge gains when he does carry, however he does generally make the ball available when he does carry. And when you are in the defensive end of the pitch a 1m loss, but protecting teh ball is far better than a 15m gain and losing it or giving away a pen.

Dafydd Jones was an excellent blindside.

Think we can all agree that Jones was an excellent blinside flanker and potentially could have gone on to be world class but unfortunstely for him he was blighted by injury.

I think we could be saying the same of Ian Evans if he carries on this way with injuries

For me I'd chuck Shingler straight in at 6. I definitely think he's good enough and has some serious pace. We know what R. Jones weaknesses are and if this trend for bringing in young, hungry players is to continue then that is the best option. He would complement Warbs and Faletau and is in a very rich vein of form at the moment. I guess we'll see.

Also I would definitely not play Hook at 10. If any team is going to get under his skin it's Ireland. Players like POC and the likes really know how to turn the screw and I don't think Hook has it mentally.

Rory
Sorry for getting you into an argument there. Wasn't my intention...

A player that gets under Ireland's skin is Phillips he will soon make them forget about Hook.

Shingler is a decent player but at the moment he does not know how to play the ref so could be a risk.

Mckay,
If you think Ireland will get under Hook's skin what about Shingler? He will be against one of the most powerful backrows in world rugby. I think he would be a bit out of his depth like Lydiate was when he started out. He also gives a away too many penalties

I know what you're saying but I think Hook is fragile mentally. If Ireland get any hint of his usual flakiness they'll take him apart