Semi-Final Thread - Djokovic V Murray

[CaledonianCraig]

First topic message reminder :

All set for the off. I hope it is a great match and best of luck Andy.

Discuss....

[socal1976]

He would probably have 3 wimbeldons right now if the balls and courts were like they were in the late 90s. i don't want the one dimensional guys who just hit a serve 10 miles an hour harder than everyone else winning tourneys. I don't want to see a wimbeldon where the champion goes the entire tournament without dropping his serve.

[barrystar]

Like i said it is about finding a balance but if I had to choose between the tennis of the late 90s and the tennis today I would take today's tennis every single day and twice on sunday. With the modern racquets and bigger athletes maybe we need the somewhat slower conditions because with the same conditions of 10 or 20 years ago we might get a tour filled with Ivo Karlovic's. If there are to be any changes I would want them to be minor at most. I like today's tennis, sorry, like most fans I like lengthy rallies and both players tonight still hit some great winners. But both guys are great returners, and great defenders playing on a slow court so of course most of the points are going to end in errors.

I agree that changes should be careful and gradual - the pendulum needs nudging back little by little because I agree that the late 1990's were a desperate era for tennis and an overswing would be undesirable. The easiest change to make would be to use slightly different balls - perhaps like the ones which have livened up proceedings at RG in the last two years. If that has a beneficial effect the line can be held there for a bit, but were I in charge I'd be telling venues that any renewal work should involve looking at whether the new surface could be marginally faster.

[Guest]

Hi Socal, the problem with the very long rally is the following:

1a) After the serve, if the point isn't won on say the fifth strike then we get into the rally situation. This is when Rafa tends to start his grunting.
1b) Anyway the rally progresses and one player plays an incredible shot and you think to yourself, wow, that would be a deserving winner, but then incredibly the opponent retrieves the ball and it bounces in fairly deep, okay so we are back in the rally.
1c) Then the same or the other player plays an incredible shot and you think to yourself, wow, that would be a deserving winner, but then incredibly the opponent retrieves the ball and it bounces in fairly deep, okay so we are back in the rally.
1d) Then the same or the other player plays an incredible shot and you think to yourself, wow, that would be a deserving winner, but then incredibly the opponent retrieves the ball and it bounces in fairly deep, okay so we are back in the rally .... it's at this point the spectator begins to glaze over and switch off.

Someone wins the point. The server goes through a long routine to regather his thoughts and more importantly to regather his breath. We are then into the next point and the next rally ....

Perhaps this is an exageration but it is the direction of the modern game, when each player has a "team" surrounding him. So it is really Team A playing Team B.

[lydian]

Personally I think Nadal-Nole are better matches to watch than Murray-Nole matches, despite what other people think I feel Nadal is a better shotmaker than Murray...some of Nadal's shots yesterday were breathtaking, Murray is a more straight kind of left-to-right-to-left player without many moments of amazing shotmaking that both Nadal and Nole (and ROger) are capable of. Still...very encouraging stuff from Murray, he needs to work on his serving though...that 2nd is still hurting him badly.

[break_in_the_fifth]

Murray used to have amazing moments of shotmaking but they have been ironed out of his game over the years.

[socal1976]

So let me get this straight Nore Staat your problem with the modern game is that you see several great shots in a rally before a point is won. Great attacking players still do have success in the modern game. Case in point Roger Federer. Who won every single grandslam on slowed down courts, with luxlon strings, and bigger slower balls. The date for court slowing was in the late 90s and early 2000s. Today if you look at the top ten there are still a number of attacking players like Soderling, Tsonga, berdych and fed. And even the more defensive players have big time weapons to hurt you.

I echo Barrystar's comments at most minor changes are needed. Today the athletes are bigger and the racquet and string tech is more advanced speeding up the conditions can have a very damaging effect on the tour. If you like watching Sampras, Ivanisivic, Rusedski, and Roddick type players were more to you. But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

[Guest]

So let me get this straight Nore Staat your problem with the modern game is that you see several great shots in a rally before a point is won. Great attacking players still do have success in the modern game. Case in point Roger Federer. Who won every single grandslam on slowed down courts, with luxlon strings, and bigger slower balls. The date for court slowing was in the late 90s and early 2000s. Today if you look at the top ten there are still a number of attacking players like Soderling, Tsonga, berdych and fed. And even the more defensive players have big time weapons to hurt you.

I echo Barrystar's comments at most minor changes are needed. Today the athletes are bigger and the racquet and string tech is more advanced speeding up the conditions can have a very damaging effect on the tour. If you like watching Sampras, Ivanisivic, Rusedski, and Roddick type players were more to you. But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

I should perhaps have said before the point is "lost" rather than won.

And let me reiterate the view that there needs to be a balance between the serve-volley slug fest and the endless rally where the point is most likely to be lost rather than won.

[barrystar]

I echo Barrystar's comments at most minor changes are needed. Today the athletes are bigger and the racquet and string tech is more advanced speeding up the conditions can have a very damaging effect on the tour. If you like watching Sampras, Ivanisivic, Rusedski, and Roddick type players were more to you. But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

An example of the sort of think I'd like to see more of would be the Agassi vs. Rafter Wimbledon SF's from 1999 and 2000. Contrast of styles in fascinating 5-set matches where both had a chance of winning. I think that Wimbledon had not really started slowing down by then, so that may say a lot for what a remarkable player Agassi was.

I think Nore Staat has a point, I really do, I thrill at remarkable gets, but when they are the norm and the lot of attacking players is to wilt because they are always facing a brick wall I get bored I really do.

[Guest]

.... But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

Well I can raise the view of Tenez and Bogbrush that in this modern era there is no longer room for a super Rog. That type of player is being driven out by the more ping pong endurance type of player.

[Danny_1982]

I echo Barrystar's comments at most minor changes are needed. Today the athletes are bigger and the racquet and string tech is more advanced speeding up the conditions can have a very damaging effect on the tour. If you like watching Sampras, Ivanisivic, Rusedski, and Roddick type players were more to you. But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

Completely agree with you socal. Today's match is exactly the type of tennis I love watching.

[socal1976]

Well gentleman I like the modern game, don't want to see any drastic changes to favor another style.

[barrystar]

.... But I found that style of playing infinetly boring. I stopped watching for a couple of years till the emeregence of super Rog.

Well I can raise the view of Tenez and Bogbrush that in this modern era there is no longer room for a super Rog. That type of player is being driven out by the more ping pong endurance type of player.

I don't think we are miles apart, the difference being hidden in the words we use. Whislt we want to see attacking play rewarded I don't think any of us want a return to Sampras v. Ivanisevic "bash bash forteigh love" and it's difficult to predict what effect anything but an incremental change might bring.

[Tenez]

Lol you seem more scared of Ivo than someone preparing for a return game against him. When has he ever looked close to dominating anything?

Ivo is easy...Fognini is Socal's bete noire.

[socal1976]

Barry and Dany, I wouldn't be opposed to some experimenting with some lower level tourneys to see what would happen as long as the changes were minor. But lets remember Nore Staat that Roger Federer won every single slam on slowed conditions and with luxlon racquets so the modern game does not blunt the ability of a great attacking player.

And Tenez is correct, Fogninnniinniiiii!!!!!!! Give me my grandslam back !!!!!!

[bogbrush]

The changes didn't stop there.

I remember when the AO was fast, and only a few years ago that was.

[Danny_1982]

Great comments from Murray after the match. Really positive:

"Everybody matures at different ages and different rates. I feel now like I'm ready mentally (to challenge the top three)," Murray said when asked if he felt he had changed since his loss to Djokovic in the 2011 final.

"Physically I can still get better, for sure. But in comparison to how I played last year, it was much, much better.

"Tonight's match was important for many reasons. Obviously I wanted to win first and foremost, but after last year, the year that Novak had, I think there's a very fine line between being number one in the world and being three or four.

"I think that gap, I feel tonight I closed it," added Murray, who has credited new coach Ivan Lendl with boosting his confidence. "My job over the next two or three months is to surpass him and the guys in front of me."

[Guest]

... "Tonight's match was important for many Murray, who has credited new coach Ivan Lendl with boosting his confidence. "My job over the next two or three months is to surpass him and the guys in front of me."

That's the importance of having a full time coach (who is good). Murray now has a plan and a purpose. He is now "working" for Lendl. Lendl can do all the important thinking, it is up to Murray to work hard and to follow the Yogi Lendl.

[socal1976]

Good hire by murray, he needs someone that has a bit of attitude and has the resume that he doesn't need murray. Lendl is a good fit.

Bogbrush, when exactly was the AO fast, it has always been a slow hardcourt whether it was rebound ace or plexicushion both are rubberized slower hardcourts. The last time the AO was fast was in the mid 80s when it was grass.

[carrieg4]

to all Murray fans which must feel gutted now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A39093816

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