Predict the Winners for the forth coming weekend...!

First topic message reminder :

So its Six Nations 2012. Who do you think will be the winners and losers this weekend?

Saturday, 4 February 2012
France v Italy 14:30
Scotland v England 17:00

Sunday, 5 February 2012
Ireland v Wales 15:00

maestegmafia wrote:

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"i find its a bit of a wum fest"

yep as below

"scotland have to be favourites for the sco v eng match"

in all seriousness i favour scotland this time around. england are a very new team, scotland are well settled team. scotland have an established coach, england have an newly promoted coach.

scotland are at home.

england could win it. i wont begrudge them a win but i have a feeling it'll be too soon for this new look england.

Scotland were the better side the last two matches vs England and very unlucky not to win. England haven't won in Murrayfield for nearly a decade. I would be surprised if they won this year. New Coach who has no senior rugby experience, untried players who have very mixed form winning well one week then losing by 50 points the next.

Yet you are confident that Wales who have one once in Ireland in over a decade will beat a better side away from him despite having a raft of injuries and their best player retire? Lets not mention the 3 game losing streak. I know the first thing youll bring up is that Wales beat Ireland last two times they played, but England beat Scotland the last two times they played and didnt have to cheat to do it. If youre going to use that argument then you have to use it in Englands favour too. Ill say that its the first time in ages Im not just assuming England will go to Scotland and win but Im more ocnfident of it than I am that Wales will do Ireland over.

As I said Im far from confident that England will win but its pretty clear some people are using wishful thinking rather than equally applied logic to predict their winners. The polls stabilised now but it was pretty obvious the welsh nationalists had been all over it when at one point almost all votes were for Welsh and Scottish wins, neither of whome are the bookies or professional pundits favourites. Both have a chance sure and I can acept theres some valid argumenst for favouring them, and yeah a few people may just have "gut feeling" that guides them but not 7 times as many as feel the opposite surely?

The uncertainty is what makes this tournament great.

maestegmafia wrote:

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"i find its a bit of a wum fest"

yep as below

"scotland have to be favourites for the sco v eng match"

in all seriousness i favour scotland this time around. england are a very new team, scotland are well settled team. scotland have an established coach, england have an newly promoted coach.

scotland are at home.

england could win it. i wont begrudge them a win but i have a feeling it'll be too soon for this new look england.

Scotland were the better side the last two matches vs England and very unlucky not to win. England haven't won in Murrayfield for nearly a decade. I would be surprised if they won this year. New Coach who has no senior rugby experience, untried players who have very mixed form winning well one week then losing by 50 points the next.

Scotland weren't the better side. They lost and were one dimensional. In my opinion Scotland are probably the most boring side in international rugby. They need to change that long standing reputation. A more positive and optimistic approach is needed. They have notched up some impressive wins at Murrayfield though - wins vs Australia and South Africa.

Scotland do have a decent pack though so it wouldn't be surprising if they grind a win against England. Scotland start as favourites of course but an unknown England side could surprise.

Gatland and Kidney both won the slam in their first years in charge so why not Lancaster?

The England backline will have the familiarity and experience needed. It's the English pack I am worried about. To make up for their lack of grunt I believe they need to play with high tempo. Get the bigger Scotland pack moving around.

Beshocked, can you only see a narrow Scotland win? Is it out of the question that they might win by quite a few scores?

Luckless pedestrian I can only see a narrow Scotland win. Whenever Scotland have beaten England it has been narrow. Actually most of their wins are narrow.

I have not seen anything from Scotland that suggests they will win by a large amount.

Scotland would be completely bucking the trend if they won by quite a few scores. They need to prove once for all they can score tries first.

I plumped for France , Scotland and unashamedly went ofr my heart and said Wales.

bedfordwelsh wrote: and unashamedly went ofr my heart and said Wales.

good man. we might get lucky. with defenses so well organised we will have to be more than efficient. we will have to be lucky too.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Beshocked, can you only see a narrow Scotland win? Is it out of the question that they might win by quite a few scores?

Hasnt happened since the 80s has it? never impossible but it would be pretty abject

I just find it strange that people can see one team winning by quite a bit but the other - the home team - only sneaking a win.

Luckless pedestrian not really that strange. Scotland don't score many tries. They don't win heavily. They do have a good chance of winning though.

On the other hand England can and do hammer opposition. They do score a lot more tries than Scotland too. Albeit they are more likely to hammer sides at home than away.

Just look at the recent rugby world cup. Scotland scraped past Romania and Georgia. England hammered them both.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I just find it strange that people can see one team winning by quite a bit but the other - the home team - only sneaking a win.

How often something happens is usually a good indicator of how likely it is to happen again. It would be a historical anomoly for something thats bnevr happened in the professional era to occur now. Like France losing to Italy last year.....sure it was always possible but did come as a bit of a shock to everyone whne they finaly did it.
Even looking at the sides, for all of Englands uncertainty and newishness theres nothing about Scotland over the last few years that suggest they are a threat. They still dont have centers, even more so with the nearest thing to an attacking one they had being injured. Dan Parks is likely to start at 10, he often causes problems for England by dragging them into a negative game but he has never sparked them to a free flowing try fest.
Most of the backs division is just makeweights.
Theres a lot missing from Englands first team but no more so than most years they have been up there, and avoided heavy defeats. Even when mauled by a fired up Ireland last year England actually only lost by 16 points, their biggest 6 Ns defeat since Ashton was in charge. I really dont see it as very likely that Scotland will suddenly become the geratest attacking force in world rugby. For once they arent even being touted as torunament dark horses, and rightly so.
They are well down the rankings, they arent favourites with the bookies or pundits, they havent beaten Englnad heavily for 25 years. They shouldnt beat England heavily now. If they do then teh England side should rightly be critisized as heavily as France were after their defeat to Italy.

With all due respect, it wouldn't necessarily require Scotland to 'suddenly become the greatest attacking force in world rugby' for them to win well against England.

None of us has any idea what's going to happen - that's the magic of sport. Anything's possible.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:With all due respect, it wouldn't necessarily require Scotland to 'suddenly become the greatest attacking force in world rugby' for them to win well against England.

None of us has any idea what's going to happen - that's the magic of sport. Anything's possible.

A point we have all made, but theres some things you can make reasonable deductions are more likely to happen than others.
Its not very likely that Scotland will win big (IRB big being 13 points +) no matter how much wishful thinking you apply

We don't have long to wait until we find out, do we?

maestegmafia wrote:

dogtooth wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"i find its a bit of a wum fest"

yep as below

"scotland have to be favourites for the sco v eng match"

in all seriousness i favour scotland this time around. england are a very new team, scotland are well settled team. scotland have an established coach, england have an newly promoted coach.

scotland are at home.

england could win it. i wont begrudge them a win but i have a feeling it'll be too soon for this new look england.

Scotland were the better side the last two matches vs England and very unlucky not to win. England haven't won in Murrayfield for nearly a decade. I would be surprised if they won this year. New Coach who has no senior rugby experience, untried players who have very mixed form winning well one week then losing by 50 points the next.

No fear lads. England by a cricket score. It's been coming for a while.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:With all due respect, it wouldn't necessarily require Scotland to 'suddenly become the greatest attacking force in world rugby' for them to win well against England.

None of us has any idea what's going to happen - that's the magic of sport. Anything's possible.

A point we have all made, but theres some things you can make reasonable deductions are more likely to happen than others.
Its not very likely that Scotland will win big (IRB big being 13 points +) no matter how much wishful thinking you apply

All depends on how many penalties England concede. New teams with new coaches that lack experience often concede penalties and yellow cards in abundance.

Remember the start of Martin Johnson's tenure England were getting two yellow cards a game.

It will take time for Lancaster to find his feet and for the players to gain confidence in him.

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:With all due respect, it wouldn't necessarily require Scotland to 'suddenly become the greatest attacking force in world rugby' for them to win well against England.

None of us has any idea what's going to happen - that's the magic of sport. Anything's possible.

A point we have all made, but theres some things you can make reasonable deductions are more likely to happen than others.
Its not very likely that Scotland will win big (IRB big being 13 points +) no matter how much wishful thinking you apply

All depends on how many penalties England concede. New teams with new coaches that lack experience often concede penalties and yellow cards in abundance.

Remember the start of Martin Johnson's tenure England were getting two yellow cards a game.

It will take time for Lancaster to find his feet and for the players to gain confidence in him.

Yeah and they still never lost to Scotland by more than 6 points despite all that ...even in the years under Ashton when they took real hammerings by France and Ireland. Even in the year when they took a record home defeat in the AIs. England leaked penalties like crazy against Scotland in the WC, and won.

You could say itll take a while for Robinsons players to find confidence in him, after all he keeps leading them to poor results.

Im not saying its a walk over for England, Im just saying you guys are pushing the grounds of credibility trying to construct a fanatsy realm where England are likley to get humped by Scotland. Its just not very likley to happen. This isnt a brilliant Scotland side, and the best ones havent managed to beat England by more than 6 points since the mid 80's.

I hope it isn't two yellow cards a game again.

I went with France, England and Irleand to be the winners. Although I would be upset with a Scotland win I wouldn't be particularly surprised, likewise a Welsh win wouldn't surprise me too much either.

I think it'll be close either way between England and Scotland, and even if one does race in to a lead I can't see either of them managing to keep up the pressure required to keep that big lead for the full 80.

Scotland have raced out of the blocks a few times and then almost finished with a whimper, likewise England usually build in to games and I think the team will slowly click over the full 80.

scotland will go at england hard first 40 and possibly manage a small lead, however england will keep it real second half and get a couple of tries, we will win by 15 but the media will say its a shocking performance

mystiroakey wrote:england will keep it real

Oh God, they're not going to rap 'God Save the Queen,' aren't they?

I see those arrogant Scots are predicting a win by printing "Scotland. Winners" T-Shirts prior to the match even being played!

What next? A grandslam video?

'A spokesman for the retailer said: "This was nothing more than an administrative error with some old stock ending up on the website by mistake.

"These T-shirts were hugely popular back in 2008 when Scotland last took Calcutta Cup honours and hopefully this will be a good omen for Saturday and they'll end up in demand once more."'

I've put that here because it's clear you've only read the headline.

Oh yes, "accidentally" done, was it? Accidentally done, a few days prior to the Calcutta Cup game, after they didn't "accidentally" end up on sale for almost 3 years? It's either arrogance or incompetence.

Oh well, it will certainly be used as ammunition by the lads.

Putting them on sale isn't the same as predicting a win. In a two-horse race there's a good chance there'll be a demand for those t-shirts after Saturday's match.

And putting old stock on sale isn't the same as printing new stock.

It's provocative and arrogant.

The fact that they've not bothered to print new ones is a further slap in the face.

Imagine if England recycled old "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" T-shirts, there'd be absolute out-cry and accusations of colonialism, imperialism and condescension.

Right, now I hope we really hand them their arses on the weekend.

beshocked wrote:Luckless pedestrian not really that strange. Scotland don't score many tries. They don't win heavily. They do have a good chance of winning though.

On the other hand England can and do hammer opposition. They do score a lot more tries than Scotland too. Albeit they are more likely to hammer sides at home than away.

Just look at the recent rugby world cup. Scotland scraped past Romania and Georgia. England hammered them both.

You can't use Romania and Georgia to back up this argument:

Scotland played both of them in their first games.
England played both of them when they had only had a few days rest
England played them indoors while Scotland had to play in severe conditions - particularly Georgia

beshocked wrote:

Gatland and Kidney both won the slam in their first years in charge so why not Lancaster?

The massive difference between Lancaster and Gatland and Kidney is that Lancaster has no experience of success at any senior level of rugby as a head coach.

Gatland and Kidney had both won the HEC, had excellent records as coaches, no one in Wales or Ireland thought they would win the GS prior to the tournament but both sets of fans were happy with the appointment of an experienced and proven coach.

Lancaster like every recent England coach bar Ashton and Rowell lack pedigree or a proven record.

miteyironpaw wrote:Oh yes, "accidentally" done, was it? Accidentally done, a few days prior to the Calcutta Cup game, after they didn't "accidentally" end up on sale for almost 3 years? It's either arrogance or incompetence.

Oh well, it will certainly be used as ammunition by the lads.

I think the prhrase you are looking for is "simple marketting plan to generate interest in fixture"

Apparently it works.

Maybe they should get an England player to say something quite inocent and have a newspaper headline that blows it out of all proportion....
And so it goes

miteyironpaw wrote:Imagine if England recycled old "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" T-shirts, there'd be absolute out-cry and accusations of colonialism, imperialism and condescension.

Have there ever been any "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" t-shirts?

Right.

Image if there had ever been some "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" t-shirts and they were "accidentally" recycled for sale on the RFU website in the week prior to the Calcutta Cup. There'd be absolute out-cry and accusations of colonialism, imperialism and condescension.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:Imagine if England recycled old "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" T-shirts, there'd be absolute out-cry and accusations of colonialism, imperialism and condescension.

Have there ever been any "Yes, we've whipped the Scots again!" t-shirts?

No, I dont think anyone here would be that excited about it. Its just not that big a deal and since we are all arrogant we go int ever calcutta cup game assuming it wouldnt happen.
Theres usually a few " hang coach X for not whipping the scots" shirts knocking around mind.

Can someone move this to the topic where all these poinst have already been covered and move this one away from "England vs Wales arguing about Scotland" please?

On that note I thought all you Welshies would be rooting for England after Shinglesgate

And what am I to make by the "Yes, the garden gnomes are back!" advert that pops up first when you visit the shop to check?

Clearly they are now mocking the dwarf throwing escapade!

This retail site psychological warfare is below the belt and typical of those underhanded celts.

malky1963 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Luckless pedestrian not really that strange. Scotland don't score many tries. They don't win heavily. They do have a good chance of winning though.

On the other hand England can and do hammer opposition. They do score a lot more tries than Scotland too. Albeit they are more likely to hammer sides at home than away.

Just look at the recent rugby world cup. Scotland scraped past Romania and Georgia. England hammered them both.

You can't use Romania and Georgia to back up this argument:

Scotland played both of them in their first games.
England played both of them when they had only had a few days rest
England played them indoors while Scotland had to play in severe conditions - particularly Georgia

How many days did Romania need? They had 7. Of course Argentina and Scotland softened up the Romanians didn't they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Rugby_World_Cup

To be honest it wouldn't make that much difference. Funny that you are blaming the weather on the lack of tries.

18 tries compared to 4. Just a tiny difference.

Georgia and Romania arguably did fight harder against Scotland. Why not? They had a higher chance of victory.

miteyironpaw wrote:And what am I to make by the "Yes, the garden gnomes are back!" advert that pops up first when you visit the shop to check?

Clearly they are now mocking the dwarf throwing escapade!

This retail site psychological warfare is below the belt and typical of those underhanded celts.

Very good!

Have to say I can't wait for this weekend. I'm like a bottle of pop!
The main reason being I haven't a clue who will win the Scotland - England game. I think Ireland may take Wales, and expect France to beat Italy well - but let's be honest every game is up for grabs!

Scotland - England, far from being the boresfest it's often accused of being, will be fascinating! Are mobile forwards worth sacrificing a decent scrum for? We'll see! Will Dan Parks last the game? Will he kick Scotland to victory and surprise some of the more pessimistic Scotland fans, and it appears most of the England fans on this board?
Have England got a backline? Can England go 20 minutes without a red-card? Has Scotland got the lineout to make the most of Dan Park's boot?

Really can't wait. Oh, and I get wife-sanctioned beer while watching rugby!

Hope you all get to enjoy the rugby regardless of the results.

France to canter home, England to stumble, get up, stumble again and then win it in the last 2 minutes. Ireland to win by a close margin in the match fo the weekend.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:if scotland win it will be a very tight afair and either side could win in that scenario, however if england put on a cracking performance they have a good chance of putting scotland out the game with heavy scoring, scotland cannot do that

neither can this England side. They dont have the pack to dominate possession and they dont have the midfield to create space and they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for an outside half. Ashton and Foden cannot score tries without the ball.

The reality of England is they are a side that is rebuilding at the moment they do not posess their traditional strengths and have not developed a game plan to their strengsth yet. That takes time, you dont simply throw the youth in and watch it click instantly in International Rugby. On top of that they have a caretaker coach keeping Mallets seat warm.

yea of, erm, no faith.

I expect England to try hard and surprise people like you, but not to get higher than 3rd.

I was tipping Scotland to win this weekend. But with Dan Parks starting I think I'm about to change my mind.

I think Tycroes would have a better point about in OH choices if Gatland hadnt suggested he was seriously considering Henson at 10 and Scotland didnt have Dan Parks in the lineup.
Mock all you like, Andy Goode has a 100% winning record against Scotland.

I havent seen manay wingers who can score tries without the ball although Im sure Wales will cook up some way of fooling the ref to get away with that one.


The second part fair enough, but we spent the last 4 years in that state.

Have Scotland announced their team then? It's not on the BBC website.

Adam's on the media distribution list

https://www.606v2.com/t22973-scotland-team-for-saturday#912185

R Lamont Jones De Luca S Lamont Evans Parks Cusiter Jacobsen Ford Murray Gray Hamilton Strokosch Rennie Denton
Subs S Lawson Cross Kellock Barclay Blair Laidlaw Morrison

Ireland to win by a close margin

#
Aye - they'll be keeping a close eye on the quick illegal lineouts this year methinks.

TrailApe wrote:

Ireland to win by a close margin

#
Aye - they'll be keeping a close eye on the quick illegal lineouts this year methinks.

1 game is a close margin, but i reckon there will be 20 + points in that

i honestly cannot call the ireland wales game- ireland are realitivey big favs mind- i suppose the irish love a gamble and can play amazing at home. but however still shocked at the odds considering the last game between the two(albeit neautral)

as i am a gambler i will take the wales odds, its gonna be a tight afair- surely ireland cant brainwash themselves into believing wales are england and pull some unreal performnace out of there arse

I'd be so dispirited to see Parks on the teamsheet if I was a Scot. I'm dispirited enough as a Welshman to see him start.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I'd be so dispirited to see Parks on the teamsheet if I was a Scot. I'm dispirited enough as a Welshman to see him start.

tell us about it.

also on that note, I now predict an England victory from a resurgent squad. Dan Parks will just lower the motivation and drive of the Scotland team as he kicks the ball into Ben Foden's hands for him to run at us from outside the England 22. If Laidlaw had started it'd be a bit of a better match at least.

NeilyBroon wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I'd be so dispirited to see Parks on the teamsheet if I was a Scot. I'm dispirited enough as a Welshman to see him start.

tell us about it.

It says a lot that no-one bats an eyelid at De Luca though

i though de luca was a scot who played for scotland?

He is, hes just not a very good one.

Wouldnt Shingler be a better option?

Shingles still isn't eligible for scotland far as I'm aware, de luca has had outstanding form with edinburgh, I hope he can transfer it to the international scene, although my worry is part of that form has been to do with Laidlaw's positive style of play, something which Dan Parks just cannot comprehend. I think our backs basically have been deemed completely useless by the Parks selection and our 8 forwards will literally be playing for the whole 22 men going forward with Parks kicking to the corners.