Should Andy Robinson go after this 6 nations?

First topic message reminder :

Simple Question -

But i thought Scotlands expectations and targets were just to beat England...so if he does that this weekend he's achieved the goal!

eirebilly wrote:Aslong, you dont think that AR has had a say in the rugby played at grass roots in Scotland? I would have thought that he did to be honest, that being part of the strategy that he put forward. If not then i am wrong.

I just don't see it, billy, but of course that's not to say that it's not happening. Robinson still lives in Bath, that alone would make anything more than his day job (Head Coach of the national team) tricky imo

eirebilly wrote:Yes, you are lower ranked than usual but your system is in a much healthier state than what it was before AR came into power. That healthy state will provide the results you have all been expecting soon.

The healthier state I actually put down to the influence of 3 men - Mighty Mouse, Sir Moir Lockhead and Mark Dodson, CEO, pres and chairman of the SRU

eirebilly wrote:Scotland are scoring less tries but its not as if they arent making breaks, its the support play that has been woefull. Get a decent attacking coach in and Scotland will score tries.

Sacking the current attack coach (instead of remaining steadfastly and blindly loyal) should be one of the Head Coach's jobs tho. Agree that it's not a shortage of breaks in general, but rather support play that is a huge problem in all areas of the park, but specifically it's crossing the whitewash when we are in the red zone too.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i thought Scotlands expectations and targets were just to beat England...so if he does that this weekend he's achieved the goal!

Geordie, I occasionally allow myself to dare to have modestly grander ambitions!!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i thought Scotlands expectations and targets were just to beat England...so if he does that this weekend he's achieved the goal!

Geordie, I occasionally allow myself to dare to have modestly grander ambitions!!

Sorry ASBO...could resist

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i thought Scotlands expectations and targets were just to beat England...so if he does that this weekend he's achieved the goal!

That is our sole goal - this weekend

Then our sole goal is the win the next weekend, then the weekend after

get a bit fed up with that comment that ONLY ever want to beat England - is wrong and offencive

Aw Risky man i was having a laugh....

GeordieFalcon - fair enough - but with the whole selection debate and the constant abuse I get being a Scot in London, my tether has been stretched and pulled - and it seems I am a little more sensitive in the nether regions -

Once we have won this weekend I will be a nicer person

Ah but then you'll have all us bitter Englishmen saying...well it was your World Cup final wasnt it?

Im looking forward to the game

After 4 tries in the RWC alarms were ringing.

And danilli gets some stick here too. But lets not forget be scored 50% of our tries in the RWC. Depressing.

If we were England or France then perhaps the coach should go. However, we're Scotland, we have never been a major force in international rugby.

Developing into a team that will bring results will take time and I think we're doing just fine with AR. He has laid down the foundations. Now as players such as Jones, Laidlaw, Weir, Visser, Denton and Hogg join the fray, swapping to a new coach would be insane. It would be like Da Vinci painting half of the 'last supper' and then being fired and replaced by a different artist. AR has brought so much to Scottish rugby. I personally will not be critical of him until we have completed the 6 nations 2014. If we're not getting results by then, then perhaps we should look at getting a new coach. I personally feel 2013 will be a good year for us, when we have given these newbies a few games and have Visser.

Nearly beating two sides at the world cup that have been consistently better over the last decade is a disaster?
Must suck to be Wales then.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Nearly beating two sides at the world cup that have been consistently better over the last decade is a disaster?
Must suck to be Wales then.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Nearly beating two sides at the world cup that have been consistently better over the last decade is a disaster?
Must suck to be Wales then.

:ouch:

Seriously thgough that was a tough group for Scvotalnd all round.
Whilst there was two sides they could beat both of those were favourites going into the games. Had they been in a group like France and Ireland had they wouldve been expected to stroll through with no serious challengers for the second place. Would getting knocked out in teh quarters have been that much better?
It looks great on paper but in reality they still wouldnt have beaten any sides they werent epxeected to beat.
It was by noi means a vintage torunament for Scotland but like England they beat the sides they should beat and lost to the ones they are on a level or slightly behind. France got to the final but didnt beat anyone they wouldnt expect to beat, and managed to lose against a side they should walk all over.
To talk about faliurre to qualify from the group stages as a reason to sacjk Robinson and a serious failing is a bit misleading. Scotland are only on the fringes of the top 8 sides and do well to stay there, thats the reality.
They had a good season a couple of years ago ( under robinson) but that is the anomoloy for modern times, not getting knocked out by two sides who expect to be in the top 6.

I agree that if Scotland continue to have hit a wall this season and dont get teh magic two wins then his job shoudl be questioned.. But there seems to be some wholly unrealistic expectations form Scotland supporters. Youd think that after years of underacheiving the message would sunk in, Scotland do well to stay comeptitive at all.

I guess it will be pretty disappointing if there's no obvious progress this 6N, but there are a few reactionaries on here it seems spitting into their porridge at the mere mention of a name.

Thankfully there's also a majority who harbour a bit of sense and reason.

It might be questionable that DP gets the nod above some improving and exciting talent coming up the ranks, but as someone else mentioned an experienced head in this weekend's game is probably what's required. If the game's secure (or bereft of ideas) then it's time for new blood.

There's a risk of baby and bathwater here, folks.

The one thing I am not looking forward to is the despicable (but inevitable) booing as Parks' name is read out. I just hate that, those that indulge should stay at home and boo the telly.

Greenhat,

+1 - I agree completely

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Nearly beating two sides at the world cup that have been consistently better over the last decade is a disaster?
Must suck to be Wales then.

The problem is the reason we lost thoses games was only down to poor selection

Both games we have most possesion and territory - just could not covert - due to PARKS

Last 6 nations, we produced more than enough ball, but failed to use it effectively

hence the frustration

PS - I agree - booing him is not on - frustrated - but FULLY behind the team

Come on SCOTLAND

Welcome to the v2 board, green hat

thegreenhat wrote:It might be is questionable that a seriously out-of-form DP who's last decent game was 2 years ago gets the nod above some improving and exciting talent coming up the ranks (interesting that the notion of 'ranks' doesn't seem to bother countries like Australia), but as someone else mentioned an experienced head in this weekend's game is probably what's required. If the game's secure (or bereft of ideas) then it's time for new blood.

Corrected that for you, no charge. If a home game against a new and relatively inexperienced England team with an interim coaching team appointed by a union that is in disarray is not the time for 'new blood', then I seriously don't know when is

thegreenhat wrote:The one thing I am not looking forward to is the despicable (but inevitable) booing as Parks' name is read out. I just hate that, those that indulge should stay at home and boo the telly.

Absolutely agree, DP did not select himself, Robinson did - think you'll find it's the part-time fans that'll be doing the boo-ing

I honestly hate booing at any match. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth when i hear that.

Its rather an odd assumption though taht Scotland would asomehow have been better without DP. Im yet to see any evidence, in the form of a run off good results, without him that that would be the case.
Had teams let England run at them and play the game tehy wanted to rather than relying on Wilkos eratic boot we couldve seen some much bigger scorelines.
Every team ( except France and Romania) who played England went with teh same model, strangle them and stop 11-15 from egtting the chance to operate in space. England forwards and breakdown play were and obvious weakeness.
That hasnt changed now. If Scotland play to their strengths and stop England playing to theirs they have a better chance of winning , and lower chance of being humped, than they do the other way round.
Simply claiming that Scotland only lost because they picked the wrong players smacks of arrogance. Maybe they were only in the game because of the players he picked?

Dan Parks has been picked for this match because AR is after wanting to pin England back and let their indiscipline cost them. No way does he want to play an open and attacking game as that would play into Englands hands the most.

eirebilly wrote:Dan Parks has been picked for this match because AR is after wanting to pin England back and let their indiscipline cost them. No way does he want to play an open and attacking game as that would play into Englands hands the most.

billy, absolutely, altho I'm not sure that there's any reason to imagine that Laidlaw and Weir couldn't have done that, as well as offer alternative, less predictable options when the occasion arose. Our problem is now likely to be how we go about converting ball near England's line into points - let's be honest, an all likelihood we'll either score through the forwards, or in multiples of 3. Again, with either of the other two potential 10s, we'd have other options to play with as well

Picking parks and going for a kicking game risks Foden,Ashton and Stretle running counter-attack at you all game - that's my fear.

Scotland will get loads of ball fromt he pack and then give it to the most dangerous players on the park :-(

AsLong. Totally agree with you, i am just trying to rationalise AR's decision for picking Dan Parks. It would not have been my choice but i can understand his thought process behind it

Can you imagine what we'll all be like if Desperate Dan puts in a big hit forcing an instant turnover then he hands off an England loose forward on the way to the line - finishing with a swallow dive.

Manky-Flanker wrote:
Can you imagine what we'll all be like if Desperate Dan puts in a big hit forcing an instant turnover then he hands off an England loose forward on the way to the line - finishing with a swallow dive.

Loving your work, Manky

Manky-Flanker wrote:
Can you imagine what we'll all be like if Desperate Dan puts in a big hit forcing an instant turnover then he hands off an England loose forward on the way to the line - finishing with a swallow dive.

If that happens i will eat my boxers

Manky-Flanker wrote:
Can you imagine what we'll all be like if Desperate Dan puts in a big hit forcing an instant turnover then he hands off an England loose forward on the way to the line - finishing with a swallow dive.

I think i would have to become English....

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Dan Parks has been picked for this match because AR is after wanting to pin England back and let their indiscipline cost them. No way does he want to play an open and attacking game as that would play into Englands hands the most.

billy, absolutely, altho I'm not sure that there's any reason to imagine that Laidlaw and Weir couldn't have done that, as well as offer alternative, less predictable options when the occasion arose. Our problem is now likely to be how we go about converting ball near England's line into points - let's be honest, an all likelihood we'll either score through the forwards, or in multiples of 3. Again, with either of the other two potential 10s, we'd have other options to play with as well

Fair enough, if you beleive that the otehr options are as good tactical kickers as Parks.

Robinson clealry doesnt thats all. I must admit I havent seen enough of the lads to really know if they are.

I have to actually also say, I never actually thought that Parks was that great a tactical kicker - he seems to muck up as many as he does well - just as this is all he does, there are a few gems in there

Just my opinion

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Risky, a simple question, with a simple answer - an emphatic YES. The final straw is his selection of Parks, a move that beautifully illustrates Robinson's deficiencies

I was wondering to myself why on earth would he select Parks at 10 now that Scotland look like they have a very good backline. This year sees it really tight, Italy are gauranteed a wooden spoon IMO. Someone has to fill the 4th and 5th voids and I am hopeful that it is not Wales! Perhaps give Robinson more time with these new players and judge him after the 2013 Six Nations.

Manky-Flanker wrote:
Can you imagine what we'll all be like if Desperate Dan puts in a big hit forcing an instant turnover then he hands off an England loose forward on the way to the line - finishing with a swallow dive.

then he'd have to dive off of a pier and get caught for drink driving again, although just seeing him do a swan dive would be enough for me, in fact seeing him hand off anyone let alone an English forward would be hilarious #danparkstheultimatebadass

That's about as likely as Ronan O'Gara handing-off Ross Ford. Oh wait...

Pat_Mustard wrote:That's about as likely as Ronan O'Gara handing-off Ross Ford. Oh wait...

Nice

From the Hootsman today:

Andy Robinson reflects on the loneliness of the long-distance coach

Andy Robinson takes his refuge in running to cope with lengthy separations from from his family, who are still based in Bath.

Ian Rankin could have written the scene. Late evening in a decent, but far from elegant, part of Edinburgh, a man in the early stages of middle age returns to the modest flat where he lives alone. Wedded to his job, he has been working since first light and still has more to do. He throws a quick meal together and settles down in front of the television with a stack of DVDs.

For Inspector John Rebus, read coach Andy Robinson. Like Rankin’s fictional detective, the man in charge of the Scotland team is driven, uncompromising and intense in what he does, and has paid a heavy personal price for his obsessions. The wounds of Test defeats have been salted by public humiliations and media excoriations, but the hardest part has been the lengthy separations from his family, still based in Bath, 400 miles away.

Why does he do it? Few coaches have experienced the sort of savaging Robinson went through in the last days of his time in charge of England back in 2006. He was stoic, cracking only on one occasion when he heard that his son had been taunted about his connections at a junior rugby match. Nobody would have blamed Robinson for walking away from rugby then. Least of all his wife Sam.

“She was keen for me to think about going back into teaching,” Robinson recalls. “I listened to her and I thought very hard about it. But as every month passed I would wake up and say, 'I still want to coach. I’ve got a desire to coach at the highest level’.”

Robinson’s lifeline was offered by Edinburgh. In October 2007, while the World Cup went on in France, he quietly took up the reins at the Scottish club and within two years he was Scotland coach.

But more than four years on, his is still the life of an itinerant: early morning flights from Bristol to Edinburgh, meals snatched between meetings, everything done on the hoof. He is rewarded well and he has a contract that runs until 2015, but when the periods away from home grow longer there is a nagging thought in his mind.

“I wouldn’t use the word guilt,” he says carefully. “But I am very aware that I can only do what I do with the support of my family and the sacrifices they make. I’m indebted to them that they give me the opportunity to do this.

“I miss them tremendously when I’m not there. But when you get into something like this you have to deal with the negatives and you have to put them in a compartment. Taking this job on involves fully understanding what it means.”

Robinson takes refuge in his running. Two months shy of his 48th birthday, he is impressively fit . “Edinburgh is a great city to run around,” he says. “Sometimes I go along the canal, sometimes up around the castle. It’s either early morning or late at night. Princes Street is great.”

Call it the loneliness of the long-distance coach. The truth of the matter is that Robinson is here to do a job; his attachment to Scotland is conditional. Until now he has seen almost nothing beyond rugby, nothing of the wider country. Asked if he has been to the Highlands, he says he has visited Aberdeen a couple of times.

Robinson’s win ratio with Scotland stands at 50 per cent, but his approval rating is far higher. He has delivered just one victory in each of his two Six Nations in charge and last year he became the first Scotland coach ever to fail to get the side to the World Cup’s knockout stage. Yet there have been no calls for his head, no suggestions that he is anything but the right man for the job.

Except in his own mind. He admits he was “a bit depressed” in the time he took off after the World Cup. “I thought of the games where we did so well to get into a position to win. It really ripped my heart out when I looked at the way we had lost. We were in positions to win and qualify and we didn’t do it.

“I’ve always had difficulty understanding losing. I’m embarrassed by losing. We were in control of winning and losing and it was down to our own failings that we lost.”

Did it hurt more to have the last rites read by England, who beat Robinson’s Scots in the final group game in Auckland? Robinson has spent his time in Scotland swatting away questions about grudges, but at least one of his players is less circumspect.

“I think he hates them [England] more than we do,” said Scotland flanker Alasdair Strokosch. “Andy is the most competitive man you’ll ever meet. He’s just desperate to stick it up his old employers.”

The best Robinson has managed against England so far is a 15-15 draw in the Murrayfield match two years ago.

Against an English side so lacking in experience, his Scots may never have a better chance of improving that record. We know how much losing means to Robinson; maybe this is his time to show us what winning means as well. "

You can't fault Robinson for his commitment to the cause, nor but admire the sacrifices that he and his family make, but there are two things that worry me in this piece: the first is the comment abouting how much he hates to lose - many will argue that this is a necessity in a top class athlete, but equally I would argue that it can work against you as a top class coach - allied to a naturally conservative approach, it can lead to an aversion to gambling or chancing the arm, which are sometimes necessary to win. Also I worry about his motivation, the hatred of England and a desire for revenge over his former employers. Ah well, hopefully I'm just reading too much into these

Passion is nothing without competence. I admire his passion and will to win, but fear is dictating his selections not form.

I think that there will be some shocked Scottish fans after this 6N. I feel that Scotland have a team to do well

billy, I'll happily be one of them!! Still won't convinve me that Parks & Morrison were the right selection tho ...

Jeebus, I'm starting to sound like a Portnoy ( )

I think that you will bve suprised. AR obviously saw the impending weather when he selected Parks. I see 2 or 3 wins for Scotland this year..

eirebilly wrote:I think that there will be some shocked Scottish fans after this 6N. I feel that Scotland have a team to do well

The trouble is for us Scots fans - we have had that feeling at the start of the 6 Nations now for the last 5 years and every time we manage to be crushed under the weight of frustration and disapointment - ah well - lets make it 6 years then

I had a slight expectation for them last year but this year i feel it will be a year when they actually start to gel and look good.

His record doesnt look too bad on paper, but I think you really need to look at his 6 Nations record, and frankly Scotland always seem to be fighting with Italy to avoid finishing bottom every year.

The wins over South Africa and Ausrealia are a saving grace but how strong were those teams?

AlynDavies wrote: frankly Scotland always seem to be fighting with Italy to avoid finishing bottom every year.

After last night and what ive seen of italy so far i suspect England may solve that problem for both teams

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

AlynDavies wrote: frankly Scotland always seem to be fighting with Italy to avoid finishing bottom every year.

After last night and what ive seen of italy so far i suspect England may solve that problem for both teams

The first 20 minutes is always Scotlands best in the Calcutta lets give the bag pipes a chance to cool down and see what Scotland are made of afterwards.

I still think this England team is better than the Scotland one.

Robinson must go now. What an absolute disgrace. To lose to that England team is an embarassment.

Scot Abroad wrote:Robinson must go now. What an absolute disgrace. To lose to that England team is an embarassment.

+1

In fact, I use all future +1s on this comment

+∞

Ar must go

Face it. Even if you get rid of AR nothing is going to change. You can't coach players to take their chances and handle the ball.