Ireland Team (Announced) vs Wales - 6Nations 2012 Round 1

by MMC Wed 01 Feb 2012, 12:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Here we go...

IRELAND Team & Replacements (v Wales, RBS 6 Nations Championship 2012, Aviva Stadium, Sunday, February 5th, kick-off 3pm):

15 -Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) Captain
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 -Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

*Denotes uncapped player

ORIGINAL: So the Declan Kidney will be naming his team to face Wales at lunchtime today. In preparation for complete meltdown of 606v2 as is customary for all Ireland team selections I suggest that we keep everything to one thread, namely here.

I'm assuming this one will be broadcast live on irishrugby.ie and as such, I'll be posting that link here before the announcement is made.

Helmets at the ready folks, this could get ugly. boxing

by newbie Thu 02 Feb 2012, 1:53 pm

eirebilly wrote:
newbie wrote:
Yes he has pace (he does not have fantastic pace) - you seem to be getting bogged down on one area which isnt even part of the arguement although its a good tactic to bang on about something specific which is ultimately irrelevent to the argument as he hasnt used his superhuman pace for Ireland as yet.

There is a slight contradiction there

Anyway, sorry newbie but he does have fantastic pace for a 10. He is one of the quickest players on the field at any given time. You dont just pop up in good supporting areas from winger or centres breaks you you do not have excellent pace. He is a gangly looking runner which is why it would appear to some that he is slow but trust me, that boy can move.

Eirebilly I havent directly discussed anything with you and apologies if this appears to be a bit rude but there was a slight hint of sarcasm in that statement....

Asoreleftshoulder you are very good at ratholing a debate as I pointed out, I said very clearly in concession that he has pace but I didnt think it was fantastic or that he is known for it. As I said previously comprehension doesnt seem to be your best trait as this point was conceded a while back. The examples you sent show him running good support lines (and given he is ahead of the ball in both occassions he is just doing what any OH should do) as for the run ins any one of Ferris, Redden, Heaslip, SOB and even Healy could have run those in. More to the point (and it seems to be the substantial areas that you either dont want to debate or are incapable of debating) is that all these areas he has not shown for Ireland including his amazing pace. He is now at the point where he needs to kick on. If he doesnt and is still fumbling around making mistakes and being inconsistent and we require O'Gara to come on then we better start grooming the next 10. Otherwise we could go on for ever and discuss if he is faster than speedy gonzales, the road runner and wylie coyote.

It does appear some people arent appear to drop it...

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 1:54 pm

I am also getting very excited asls, its going to be a cracking match. A perfect weekend for me would be Scotland beating England, France edging to a very close win over Italy and Ireland crushing Wales Wink

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 1:56 pm

newbie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
newbie wrote:
Yes he has pace (he does not have fantastic pace) - you seem to be getting bogged down on one area which isnt even part of the arguement although its a good tactic to bang on about something specific which is ultimately irrelevent to the argument as he hasnt used his superhuman pace for Ireland as yet.

There is a slight contradiction there

Anyway, sorry newbie but he does have fantastic pace for a 10. He is one of the quickest players on the field at any given time. You dont just pop up in good supporting areas from winger or centres breaks you you do not have excellent pace. He is a gangly looking runner which is why it would appear to some that he is slow but trust me, that boy can move.

Eirebilly I havent directly discussed anything with you and apologies if this appears to be a bit rude but there was a slight hint of sarcasm in that statement....

There was no sarcasm intended at all, it was just a little joke.....

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 1:58 pm

newbie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
newbie wrote:
Yes he has pace (he does not have fantastic pace) - you seem to be getting bogged down on one area which isnt even part of the arguement although its a good tactic to bang on about something specific which is ultimately irrelevent to the argument as he hasnt used his superhuman pace for Ireland as yet.

There is a slight contradiction there

Anyway, sorry newbie but he does have fantastic pace for a 10. He is one of the quickest players on the field at any given time. You dont just pop up in good supporting areas from winger or centres breaks you you do not have excellent pace. He is a gangly looking runner which is why it would appear to some that he is slow but trust me, that boy can move.

Eirebilly I havent directly discussed anything with you and apologies if this appears to be a bit rude but there was a slight hint of sarcasm in that statement....

Asoreleftshoulder you are very good at ratholing a debate as I pointed out, I said very clearly in concession that he has pace but I didnt think it was fantastic or that he is known for it. As I said previously comprehension doesnt seem to be your best trait as this point was conceded a while back. The examples you sent show him running good support lines (and given he is ahead of the ball in both occassions he is just doing what any OH should do) as for the run ins any one of Ferris, Redden, Heaslip, SOB and even Healy could have run those in. More to the point (and it seems to be the substantial areas that you either dont want to debate or are incapable of debating) is that all these areas he has not shown for Ireland including his amazing pace. He is now at the point where he needs to kick on. If he doesnt and is still fumbling around making mistakes and being inconsistent and we require O'Gara to come on then we better start grooming the next 10. Otherwise we could go on for ever and discuss if he is faster than speedy gonzales, the road runner and wylie coyote.

It does appear some people arent appear to drop it...

+1

by newbie Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:02 pm

Eirebilly...like I said earlier chinese whispers...I think you misunderstood...my comment on his superhoman pace was made tongue in cheek.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:06 pm

Ok, can we again just drop it now and look forward to a cracking game on Sunday?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:06 pm

newbie wrote:More to the point (and it seems to be the substantial areas that you either dont want to debate or are incapable of debating) is that all these areas he has not shown for Ireland including his amazing pace. He is now at the point where he needs to kick on. If he doesnt and is still fumbling around making mistakes and being inconsistent and we require O'Gara to come on then we better start grooming the next 10. Otherwise we could go on for ever and discuss if he is faster than speedy gonzales, the road runner and wylie coyote.

It does appear some people arent appear to drop it...

Okay because you insulted me I'll reply.I don't appreciate the comprehension comments and they are pretty insulting when you seem equally incapable of grasping the fact that I have several times said I'm only taking issue with your statement that he hasn't got great pace.

You say I'm ratholing the conversation but as far as I'm concerned his pace is the conversation,what are you arguing about because I've told you several times that is all I'm talking about.

You're right I don't want to debate those other points simply because I agree with you 100% on those issues so there's nothing to debate.I think he has amazing pace and he has shown it for Leinster,just because he hasn't shown it for Ireland doesn't mean it isn't there and I'd argue that if the team can play a coherent,expansive game then he'll have more opportunities to show it.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:09 pm

Theres to a great match on Sunday and of course i wish our Welsh brothers (and sisters) the best of luck as well Very Happy

by SecretFly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:16 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote: if the team can play a coherent,expansive game then he'll have more opportunities to show it.

There is the nutshell. One begets the other - and the critics who pretend ignorance actually know that, which is the salient point. Kidney and his coaches give Sexton and his fellow players a fast paced expansive game and more than Sexton will finally show the penetrating power of.......................................pace.

by newbie Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:30 pm

The fact that you "decided" that pace was the discussion point when it was a bit part of the debate says it all. I dont think he has amazing pace and while he has shown it once or twice for Leinster he doesnt do it for Ireland.

You also accuse me of insulting you which only came about after your discussion in the third party which you tried to explain away by saying it was replying to another thread at least try to follow through on your rude behaviour...

I see now the arguement being put forward is that the way Ireland was playing wasnt designed for him. This has to be the funniest and most simplified argument ever. When he is the OH it is HE who manages the pace of the game specifically the backline...so that is someone elses responsibility as well... Rolling Eyes

You forget he has started quite a number of games for Ireland (but I guess it is handy to have Gaffney to blame), this weekend if he doesnt do the business you can blame Kidney or we might even blame the English as we usually do.

Its time for him to step up no more excuses....(until Monday at least on this forum)....

by andy powells minder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:35 pm

newbie wrote:The fact that you "decided" that pace was the discussion point when it was a bit part of the debate says it all. I dont think he has amazing pace and while he has shown it once or twice for Leinster he doesnt do it for Ireland.

You also accuse me of insulting you which only came about after your discussion in the third party which you tried to explain away by saying it was replying to another thread at least try to follow through on your rude behaviour...

I see now the arguement being put forward is that the way Ireland was playing wasnt designed for him. This has to be the funniest and most simplified argument ever. When he is the OH it is HE who manages the pace of the game specifically the backline...so that is someone elses responsibility as well... You forget he has started quite a number of games for Ireland (but I guess it is handy to have Gaffney to blame), this weekend if he doesnt do the business you can blame Kidney or we might even blame the English as we usually do.

Its time for him to step up no more excuses....(until Monday at least on this forum)....

Sunday afternoon more like

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:36 pm

newbie wrote:The fact that you "decided" that pace was the discussion point when it was a bit part of the debate says it all. I dont think he has amazing pace and while he has shown it once or twice for Leinster he doesnt do it for Ireland.

You also accuse me of insulting you which only came about after your discussion in the third party which you tried to explain away by saying it was replying to another thread at least try to follow through on your rude behaviour...

I see now the arguement being put forward is that the way Ireland was playing wasnt designed for him. This has to be the funniest and most simplified argument ever. When he is the OH it is HE who manages the pace of the game specifically the backline...so that is someone elses responsibility as well... You forget he has started quite a number of games for Ireland (but I guess it is handy to have Gaffney to blame), this weekend if he doesnt do the business you can blame Kidney or we might even blame the English as we usually do.

Its time for him to step up no more excuses....(until Monday at least on this forum)....

Again you refuse to say what the debate is exactly if it's not about pace.What else have I said that you disagree with because that has been the focus of my comments almost exclusively.

You also said "in terms of a running threat he has not really proven this especially with Ireland (and he doesnt exactly do it that much for Leinster either.)"
Sexton scored 5 tries in th Heineken Cup last year so if that isn't doing it for Leinster I don't know what is.You come across as only ever really having seen him play for Ireland with comments like that.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:41 pm

I give up, i really do.....

Need a damn pint now guinness

by bedfordwelsh Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:43 pm

I think its great you boys are fighting amongst yourselves, any chance your team carry it over to the field on Sunday kiss

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:45 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think its great you boys are fighting amongst yourselves, any chance your team carry it over to the field on Sunday

begger off Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:45 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think its great you boys are fighting amongst yourselves, any chance your team carry it over to the field on Sunday

TBH I am surprised it took so long on this topic until a fight did occur! Especially one involving Sexton/ROG. No surprises there Very Happy

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

TBH I am surprised it took so long on this topic until a fight did occur! Especially one involving Sexton/ROG. No surprises there

RoG has no part in this discussion,I made that clear early on I'm only interested in disputing newbies statement that Sexton doesn't have great pace and he doesn't show much of a running threat for Leinster.

Hug

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 2:48 pm

reaching for the Whisky

now

by SecretFly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 3:00 pm

We fight because there are only 15 places in the starting side and a country full of starting candidates. It's easy to fight when you have that problem Wink

And so....the way eirebelly is drinking at the moment.... he'll be the only one happy on Sunday as all of his favourite players will show up.......... all 30 of them!

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 4:37 pm

Only 30 fly? Hell i am seeing 30 now ;-)

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

Oh dear it seems that newbie is finding out that the pedants and sheeple on this site can turn quite nasty if you dont agree with them. Whats even more hilarious is that newbie is being supportive of Sexton....its like the stoning scene out of "Life of Brian".... Laugh

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 4:46 pm

Why stoke things up DOD?

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 4:54 pm

Would you say that is stoking things up billy?

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 4:59 pm

Well since things had calmed down and everyone seemed to have moved on, yes i would consider that as an attempt to stoke things up again.

by debaters1 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 5:37 pm

*DOD s;inks away carrying his bellows*

Lads, Sexton has pace. Qualify it with the phrase 'for a 10' if you like, but he can move. Is he in the same league as Earls? No. But he is faster than ROG markedly (I mention ROG here only for illustrative purposes and the abilty to EFFECT an expansive game plan)

However, he is not the running threat that say Carter is because he rarely tries to go on his own but rather uses his pace for the wrap around/additional reciever along the line. This can be equally effective and does keep a defence honest, but in a different fashion that Carter's running threat where he often makes the break himself.

Sexton can and has of course, made breaks himself lest anyone go postal on me, but Sexton uses his pace to allow others to break, if i were to put it a touch simplistically.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 5:48 pm

Ah but newbie doesn't think we're debating Sextons pace he thinks the conversation is about something else but he has so far failed to say exactly what it is.

This is in spite of the fact that everyone else seems to be talking about Sextons pace and nothing else.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 5:51 pm

I am really impressed that Trimble is in the team. I have him as my favourite for top try score this 6N

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 5:54 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am really impressed that Trimble is in the team. I have him as my favourite for top try score this 6N

I hope you're right,do you think switching to the left wing when his recent good form has been on the right will make a difference?I know he can play on both wings but there are some big differences in the positions.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:00 pm

I dont think that it will make too much of a difference to be honest. He is in some tremendous form and i really think that he will star this 6N.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:10 pm

eirebilly wrote:I dont think that it will make too much of a difference to be honest. He is in some tremendous form and i really think that he will star this 6N.

Yeah it shouldn't but in the past he's mostly seemed to play left wing for Ireland and while he's put in some good perfromances never really looked like a great finisher.With Ulster this year that's changed the try he score against Tigers where he took 2 steps infield to create space so he could dive over in the corner was a fantastic piece of skill I hope he can replicate that as he has every other attribute needed.

by flynnnio Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:16 pm

i cant wait to see trimble in action and i as excited about him as much as the back row clash. I also think phillips against murray will be a cracker to but the more i think about it there are going be huge battles everywhere:)

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:22 pm

I am sure that Trimble will perform, Just have this feeling that this is his 6N

by Thomond Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:24 pm

I love Trimble and he will perform very well but he isn't a guy who scores a lot of tries, I hope I'm proved wrong though.

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:25 pm

I seriously think that he is going to score a few this year Thomond. I have nothing to back that claim up except my own personal feeling Very Happy

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:43 pm

*DOD s;inks away carrying his bellows*

No idea what you are going on about boy but it wouldnt be the first time....

RE Trimble his scoring rate is poor for Ireland when he has played. Not so sure that will change....

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:Well since things had calmed down and everyone seemed to have moved on, yes i would consider that as an attempt to stoke things up again.

Ah sure fair enough..thought it was a valid comment myself but dont let me break up the old randy

fest going on...

by eirebilly Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:55 pm

DOD wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Well since things had calmed down and everyone seemed to have moved on, yes i would consider that as an attempt to stoke things up again.

Ah sure fair enough..thought it was a valid comment myself but dont let me up the old fest going on...

Thats a slightly odd comment to make....

by ME-109 Thu 02 Feb 2012, 6:57 pm

edited accordingly...

het is niet zo moelijk te verstaan....te veel mieren neukers... Whistle

by **rodders** Thu 02 Feb 2012, 7:22 pm

Thomond wrote:I love Trimble and he will perform very well but he isn't a guy who scores a lot of tries.

Thats because hes too busy setting them up for Earls... Wink

by Pot Hale Thu 02 Feb 2012, 8:57 pm

Sunday's game is going to be one of those good sporting days where one of the teams is going to go through the 30 point mark with room to spare.

by BlueMuff Thu 02 Feb 2012, 10:53 pm

DOD wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Well since things had calmed down and everyone seemed to have moved on, yes i would consider that as an attempt to stoke things up again.

Ah sure fair enough..thought it was a valid comment myself but dont let me break up the old fest going on...

Ireland Team (Announced) vs Wales - 6Nations 2012 Round 1 - Page 7 479796

Ireland Team (Announced) vs Wales - 6Nations 2012 Round 1 - Page 7 1710857839

by newbie Thu 02 Feb 2012, 11:34 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ah but newbie doesn't think we're debating Sextons pace he thinks the conversation is about something else but he has so far failed to say exactly what it is.

This is in spite of the fact that everyone else seems to be talking about Sextons pace and nothing else.

This is fun.....alright so as the speed issue seems to be worrying you so much regardless of the other aspects concerning his inconsistency etc I will directly discuss the pace issue.

Let me summarise so I dont misrepresent you.

Your opinion is that Sexton has "Amazing Pace" and that in terms of evidence you have put forward the following.
1. The support play when he kept up with Luke Fitz from a break from their own 22 which nearly came to a score.
2. I thought it was the try he scored against Bath in the Aviva (I will allow it on the grounds that it was a good score).
3. The score against Saracens last year.
4. He has scored 5 trys last year for Leinster.
5. You (and others) have demanded that I retract my statement that Sexton does not have amazing/fantastic pace as it is an afront to humanity and rugby discussion on these boards....

Please correct me if I have not included everything in terms of evidence.....

My arguement has been the following.
1. I initially said I didnt think he had great pace....which I then retracted and said that while he was not as slow as O'Gara he does not have "amazing or fantastic pace".

Correct so far?

In terms of evidence so far.
1. I cannot find any video footage of the amazing support play to Luke Fitz. If it was a near try it was not shown and the Sky summary shows SOB butchering a try scoring opportunity but not the near miss you mention. However I will accept that because I am feeling generous.
2 & 3. Both are good examples of support play and being put clear by your winger. The fact that Sexton was ahead of those players at the start of the move kind of goes against the arguement that he was screaming up the inside from the beginning of the move. In effect he finished off the move after being put clear. He showed pace to score especially in the Saracens game but was it "amazing" I dont agree it would appear that every player bar Mike Ross would have scored that.
4. He has scored 5 tries for Leinster. How many of these were due to "amazing" pace rather than being run ins. Lets take the two he score in the Final. One was a mismatch with a prop. The second was a close in well taken dummy (with some blocking by Jennings or Heaslip). Neither were due to "amazing" pace.

In addition I would like to put forward the following.
You have given a couple of examples where he shows some pace, I wouldnt call it amazing but more decent or average. Where does he come in terms of the teams stats? Do you know these figures? Is he say faster than the wingers? Is he as fast as Kearney or Nacewa who both are speedsters. Maybe not like Denis Hickie who had "amazing" pace as we saw day in day out when he played. Is he the fastest Outhalf in Ireland and if so how do you know this?

Secondly lets take a look at some real stats. The triple crown backline from the 80's HAD "amazing" pace. How do we know this? For example Paul Dean was a 100metres runner and Michael Kiernan a 110 metres hurdler. Both posted very good times that were in the top 10 in Ireland (if not higher). Ok its Ireland but still showed that they had amazing pace and they demonstrated it when they played - specifically Dean who was explosive from a standing start. In addition you had Mullin, Crossan, Ringland and McNeil of which McNeil was the slowest.

So whats the point (as I am sending myself to sleep here with this)....

Well you have an opinion that Sexton has "amazing" pace but in effect you have not put forward any real evidence to support this other than the "odd" cameo of which apparently shows his pace but unfortunately is not on video anywhere. The facts tend to show that he has decent pace but this is not a main part of his game which I believe you originally put forward (a long time back), there is no real evidence either with Leinster (and certainly not with Ireland) to support this assertion. In effect you are making a statement of opinion (nothing wrong with that) but the assertion that his starting point will inject pace into the Irish backline(it will certainly be an improvement on O'Gara ) is wrong on all counts.

If the addition of pace was all that we needed then we would include Madigan. Now that guy has real pace and an eye for the line. If you want some more stats here are some. Madigan has score 6 (yes six) tries this year already as opposed to Sextons 1. Now here is a guy with "amazing" pace and the ability to use it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87Mvz3SvSM

Game set and Match.... thumbsup

by Pot Hale Thu 02 Feb 2012, 11:41 pm

newbie wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ah but newbie doesn't think we're debating Sextons pace he thinks the conversation is about something else but he has so far failed to say exactly what it is.

This is in spite of the fact that everyone else seems to be talking about Sextons pace and nothing else.

This is fun.....alright so as the speed issue seems to be worrying you so much regardless of the other aspects concerning his inconsistency etc I will directly discuss the pace issue.

Let me summarise so I dont misrepresent you.

Your opinion is that Sexton has "Amazing Pace" and that in terms of evidence you have put forward the following.
1. The support play when he kept up with Luke Fitz from a break from their own 22 which nearly came to a score.
2. I thought it was the try he scored against Bath in the Aviva (I will allow it on the grounds that it was a good score).
3. The score against Saracens last year.
4. He has scored 5 trys last year for Leinster.
5. You (and others) have demanded that I retract my statement that Sexton does not have amazing/fantastic pace as it is an afront to humanity and rugby discussion on these boards....

Please correct me if I have not included everything in terms of evidence.....

My arguement has been the following.
1. I initially said I didnt think he had great pace....which I then retracted and said that while he was not as slow as O'Gara he does not have "amazing or fantastic pace".

Correct so far?

In terms of evidence so far.
1. I cannot find any video footage of the amazing support play to Luke Fitz. If it was a near try it was not shown and the Sky summary shows SOB butchering a try scoring opportunity but not the near miss you mention. However I will accept that because I am feeling generous.
2 & 3. Both are good examples of support play and being put clear by your winger. The fact that Sexton was ahead of those players at the start of the move kind of goes against the arguement that he was screaming up the inside from the beginning of the move. In effect he finished off the move after being put clear. He showed pace to score especially in the Saracens game but was it "amazing" I dont agree it would appear that every player bar Mike Ross would have scored that.
4. He has scored 5 tries for Leinster. How many of these were due to "amazing" pace rather than being run ins. Lets take the two he score in the Final. One was a mismatch with a prop. The second was a close in well taken dummy (with some blocking by Jennings or Heaslip). Neither were due to "amazing" pace.

In addition I would like to put forward the following.
You have given a couple of examples where he shows some pace, I wouldnt call it amazing but more decent or average. Where does he come in terms of the teams stats? Do you know these figures? Is he say faster than the wingers? Is he as fast as Kearney or Nacewa who both are speedsters. Maybe not like Denis Hickie who had "amazing" pace as we saw day in day out when he played. Is he the fastest Outhalf in Ireland and if so how do you know this?

Secondly lets take a look at some real stats. The triple crown backline from the 80's HAD "amazing" pace. How do we know this? For example Paul Dean was a 100metres runner and Michael Kiernan a 110 metres hurdler. Both posted very good times that were in the top 10 in Ireland (if not higher). Ok its Ireland but still showed that they had amazing pace and they demonstrated it when they played - specifically Dean who was explosive from a standing start. In addition you had Mullin, Crossan, Ringland and McNeil of which McNeil was the slowest.

So whats the point (as I am sending myself to sleep here with this)....

Well you have an opinion that Sexton has "amazing" pace but in effect you have not put forward any real evidence to support this other than the "odd" cameo of which apparently shows his pace but unfortunately is not on video anywhere. The facts tend to show that he has decent pace but this is not a main part of his game which I believe you originally put forward (a long time back), there is no real evidence either with Leinster (and certainly not with Ireland) to support this assertion. In effect you are making a statement of opinion (nothing wrong with that) but the assertion that his starting point will inject pace into the Irish backline(it will certainly be an improvement on O'Gara ) is wrong on all counts.

If the addition of pace was all that we needed then we would include Madigan. Now that guy has real pace and an eye for the line. If you want some more stats here are some. Madigan has score 6 (yes six) tries this year already as opposed to Sextons 1. Now here is a guy with "amazing" pace and the ability to use it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87Mvz3SvSM

Game set and Match....

No you're wrong.

by newbie Thu 02 Feb 2012, 11:44 pm

Yeah you are probably right... zen

by eirebilly Fri 03 Feb 2012, 6:29 am

Oh gawd, what a yawn fest.....

I hope the actual game brings more excitement than this...

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 03 Feb 2012, 9:04 am

newbie wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ah but newbie doesn't think we're debating Sextons pace he thinks the conversation is about something else but he has so far failed to say exactly what it is.

This is in spite of the fact that everyone else seems to be talking about Sextons pace and nothing else.

This is fun.....alright so as the speed issue seems to be worrying you so much regardless of the other aspects concerning his inconsistency etc I will directly discuss the pace issue.

Let me summarise so I dont misrepresent you.

Your opinion is that Sexton has "Amazing Pace" and that in terms of evidence you have put forward the following.
1. The support play when he kept up with Luke Fitz from a break from their own 22 which nearly came to a score.
2. I thought it was the try he scored against Bath in the Aviva (I will allow it on the grounds that it was a good score).
3. The score against Saracens last year.
4. He has scored 5 trys last year for Leinster.
5. You (and others) have demanded that I retract my statement that Sexton does not have amazing/fantastic pace as it is an afront to humanity and rugby discussion on these boards....

Please correct me if I have not included everything in terms of evidence.....

My arguement has been the following.
1. I initially said I didnt think he had great pace....which I then retracted and said that while he was not as slow as O'Gara he does not have "amazing or fantastic pace".

Correct so far?

In terms of evidence so far.
1. I cannot find any video footage of the amazing support play to Luke Fitz. If it was a near try it was not shown and the Sky summary shows SOB butchering a try scoring opportunity but not the near miss you mention. However I will accept that because I am feeling generous.
2 & 3. Both are good examples of support play and being put clear by your winger. The fact that Sexton was ahead of those players at the start of the move kind of goes against the arguement that he was screaming up the inside from the beginning of the move. In effect he finished off the move after being put clear. He showed pace to score especially in the Saracens game but was it "amazing" I dont agree it would appear that every player bar Mike Ross would have scored that.
4. He has scored 5 tries for Leinster. How many of these were due to "amazing" pace rather than being run ins. Lets take the two he score in the Final. One was a mismatch with a prop. The second was a close in well taken dummy (with some blocking by Jennings or Heaslip). Neither were due to "amazing" pace.

In addition I would like to put forward the following.
You have given a couple of examples where he shows some pace, I wouldnt call it amazing but more decent or average. Where does he come in terms of the teams stats? Do you know these figures? Is he say faster than the wingers? Is he as fast as Kearney or Nacewa who both are speedsters. Maybe not like Denis Hickie who had "amazing" pace as we saw day in day out when he played. Is he the fastest Outhalf in Ireland and if so how do you know this?

Secondly lets take a look at some real stats. The triple crown backline from the 80's HAD "amazing" pace. How do we know this? For example Paul Dean was a 100metres runner and Michael Kiernan a 110 metres hurdler. Both posted very good times that were in the top 10 in Ireland (if not higher). Ok its Ireland but still showed that they had amazing pace and they demonstrated it when they played - specifically Dean who was explosive from a standing start. In addition you had Mullin, Crossan, Ringland and McNeil of which McNeil was the slowest.

So whats the point (as I am sending myself to sleep here with this)....

Well you have an opinion that Sexton has "amazing" pace but in effect you have not put forward any real evidence to support this other than the "odd" cameo of which apparently shows his pace but unfortunately is not on video anywhere. The facts tend to show that he has decent pace but this is not a main part of his game which I believe you originally put forward (a long time back), there is no real evidence either with Leinster (and certainly not with Ireland) to support this assertion. In effect you are making a statement of opinion (nothing wrong with that) but the assertion that his starting point will inject pace into the Irish backline(it will certainly be an improvement on O'Gara ) is wrong on all counts.

If the addition of pace was all that we needed then we would include Madigan. Now that guy has real pace and an eye for the line. If you want some more stats here are some. Madigan has score 6 (yes six) tries this year already as opposed to Sextons 1. Now here is a guy with "amazing" pace and the ability to use it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T87Mvz3SvSM

Game set and Match....

You're still refusing to say exactly what you thought the debate was about if you didn't think it was about pace,so far every other poster who has commented on this has weighed in agreeing with me on the pace thing and nothing else so maybe you're the one with the comprehension problem.

Now you have a problem with my example, well if you think he started in front of his man you are being willfully ignorant.He throws a pass on his own 10 metre line then drifts inside and keeps pace with Nacewa a winger (no slouches those guys) then catches the offload from McFadden and accelerates away from 2 back 3 players to score in the corner.You give him credit o running good support lines off his winger and centres yet you don't seem to realise that he needs pace in order to run those lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA-nKmLBSnI&feature=related

Maye this example will suit you better,again I'm sure I can find more if need to.I also don't need to show more than the odd cameo he either has it or he doesn't.

The pace Sexton injects also includes the defensive line speed so it's useful even when he doesn't use it properly in attack,if you want a good example of this rewatch the Oz game at the WC where our defence was up so quickly the Aussies couldn't get anything going.

You then bring up Madigan as an example of pace and running threat yet just because he's brilliant at those things doesn't mean Sexton isn't.

It's very arrogant to think you've won an argument just because you type a big wall of text essentially making no relevant points.

by **rodders** Fri 03 Feb 2012, 9:05 am

Out of interest how many tries has O'Gara scored this season?

by Feckless Rogue Fri 03 Feb 2012, 9:16 am

Jaysus newbie. I'm often taken aback at the pure persistence of Munster fans in their dislike of Sexton and refusal to give him credit. Can ye not even get over it temporarily for the 6 Nations?

Watch this. All of it.

He injects pace into attack over and over again. OK? Good.

by eirebilly Fri 03 Feb 2012, 9:35 am

Feckless, dont tar all us Munster fans with the same brush mate. I am in total agreeance that Sexton injects pace into the attack..

by newbie Fri 03 Feb 2012, 9:36 am

eirebilly wrote:Oh gawd, what a yawn fest.....

I hope the actual game brings more excitement than this...

Couldnt agree with you more.....

well done one more example from maybe 3 years ago (you must have spent all night looking for that one)...and now the repeat question of what I thought the debate was about to hide the inadequecies of your own opinion.

You said originally that Sexton would bring a lot more pace to the attack for Ireland, and then want on to say he had fantastic pace. The evidence clearly shows that for Ireland this has not been the case in the past. Secondly you went on to say he has fantastic pace. The evidence is there that he has not got fantastic amazing pace at all.

You had an opinion you have no evidence that Sexton has amazing pace, except for bit parts for Leinster and certainly not for Ireland. This is clear when compared with a player who has amazing pace like Madigan as an example...take your beating like a man Very Happy

Feckless - I am not a Munster supporter, and I dont particularly care about a discussion on sextons pace (I just dont think he is known for this part of his game). I made a passing comment on it and suggested that there were other areas of Sextons game that were inconsistent and that I would like to see him take his chance this weekend and silence the doubters - including myself as I am not convinced. Apparently the comment on Sextons pace was an afront to some and they demanded blood. There is the answer....

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