Why haven't the Klits transcended??????

White....Quite handsome....dominant at their weight class....at times exciting to watch...Without doubt classy guys.....great manners..Intelligent....well-spoken......owners of the greatest prize/prizes in sports for it seems like an eternity!!!!

Why haven't guys like these transcended....After all they seem to suit the transcending criteria!!!

I know they didn't conquer America (Did they try hard enough)... but they are still not big names in Britain although the average guy on the street knows Manny and floyd to a certain extent!!

Is it more to do with Boxing's deterioration??? or is the Klits themselves???

Why haven't the Klits transcended????????

Poor opponents - the only high class opponent either of them faced was Lewis and that was a seriously entertaining fight. Very few opponents ever put em in danger or ever push em to great heights. Either that or you knock them over like skittles. Unfortunately neither of them have the gift of the gab or the inclination to crush their opponents when they could win with excellent technique + tactics.

They're not American.

One could argue that Holmes reign was full of the Ocasio's of this World!!!

But Holmes was more outspoken...It's a valid post..

Maybe they were/are too nice!! Like me..

Az knock it off mate...

Lewis wasn't American....neither was fitz....schmelling.....

They certainly transcended as did Chavez and tons of other non Americans like Arguello lower down..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Az knock it off mate...

Lewis wasn't American....neither was fitz....schmelling.....

They certainly transcended as did Chavez and tons of other non Americans like Arguello lower down..

HW title is practically American property. Plus Lewis was in an era where decent HWs were still active.

Had the K bros been american, they'd be on cereal bars and household names who Joe Sixpack would know about.

ShahenshahG wrote:Poor opponents - the only high class opponent either of them faced was Lewis and that was a seriously entertaining fight. Very few opponents ever put em in danger or ever push em to great heights.

Agree with that!

It's a shame there has been no-one to really test the K-bros. They never look like they're out of third gear.
I wonder how good they would be under attack from a prime Tyson/Lewis.
Answers we'll never get sadly.....

Oh so it's not just they are not American then....

I'm sick of you telling me what Americans think all the time.....

I know I'm from a simple race.....

Doesn't say much for places like South Africa though does it!!

Larry Holmes wasn't that highly thought of in America, sure Truss can confirm that.

The brothers are boring and haven't fought anybody, they aren't going to gain the accolades of Holmes because they haven't fought anyone (baring a loss to Lewis) the standard of Shavers, Norton, Witherspoon, Cooney, Tyson or Spinks.

You're right Ghosty...but he certainly transcended though!!!

Something definitely missing with the brothers!!!

Not sure all who've transcended though needed top quality opposition..

They may be boring, but in America a slick PR machine company would make them household names. They are a marketing dream. Class, good looking(ish), very intelligent and articulate. Boxing would be a fraction of their earnings.

He's telling me about America again......

We are such a simple people..we can't think for ourselves...

Get that chip of your shoulder!!

The Cooney fight propelled Holmes on to real stardom before that he was fighting for recognition.

You need something about you to transcend, whether it being an exciting style like Gatti or Basilio, fighting top class opposition like Leonard or Hagler, having a likeable persona like Arguello or Duran (in very different ways) or you're doing something very unique like Chavez. The brothers are nice enough but they don't get the pulse racing in any way.

Cooney did take holmes to the next level....but he had earned recognition before ....Ali-Holmes had really propelled Larry...

The build up to that was huge if not as huge as the under-achieving Cooney!!

in fairness to the Klits though Ghosty....Boxing was bigger in those days and titles meant more!!

He also didn't have his brother fighting in the same division at the same time, can't under estimate how much that hurts the pair.

I agree...........I think both their legacies will suffer!!!

Hard to rate them as individuals and harder to take the heavy crown as seriously with a Family basically owning it..

good point..

Not being the consensus best in the heavyweight division hurts any fighter whether they are american or not, Ezzard Charles was a fine heavyweight champion but for much of his reign had the shadow of Louis over looking him without that he'd be rated far higher. Could say the same of Bowe and Holyfield who had other claimants at the time, Lewis eventually got recognition when he unified against his nearest rival.

Too many things going against them and very little going for them to make them transcend.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He's telling me about America again......

We are such a simple people..we can't think for ourselves...

Get that chip of your shoulder!!

Like Fox News, I'm fair and balanced. The chip is on both shoulders.

Americans aren't simple people. Just the men. Yank women are high maintenance.

No doubt though, if they were Americans they'd be bigger.

azania wrote:Yank women are high maintenance.

You sure on that one?

Spoiler:

Steffan wrote:

azania wrote:Yank women are high maintenance.

You sure on that one?

Spoiler:

You just proved his point - maintaing that would be costly.

ShahenshahG wrote:You just proved his point - maintaing that would be costly.

Nah the one on the left buys far more expensive clothes and like to wines and dine

The one on the right just wants her fast food and soaps operas

Quantity over quality - she will sip a glass of wine and eat a posh dinner which is just a clover on a bit of mouldy cheese and not eat for three days. This one looks like shes been eating since the birth of christ.

The one of the right is Trussmans high school sweetheart

I think that it's partly due to their lack of wanting to transcend in the UK and US- I am sure that if they had wanted to be household names in the states they would have signed with Arum or Goldenboy, had all there fights in Vegas and got themselves heavily marketed there- done the chat show circuit, mouthed off at every opportunity etc etc, but instead they decided that they were happy to be huge in Europe instead- do you really doubt that they transcend in Germany? they can fill a 50,000 stadium fighting nobodies- thats a big ask for any boxer yet the brothers can do it on a regular basis. The truth is that we fans hold a very British/American centric point of view. The brother are the big, big stars in boxing from a German point of view, so whilst we complain that they are boring and the HW div is crap, the Germans fans think the div is great and hold the brother in the sort of esteem that we held Lewis, Tyson etc

But America is where you transcend, being a star anywhere unfortunately doesn't mean anywhere near as much in terms of money or recognition.

For me there are a number of factors, firstly is the fact that whilst the fact that they will never fight each other is perfectly understandable it does leave us with a situation where neither can claim to be truly dominant, which would help, also for me their opposition is a massive factor, there is just nothing that gets the pulse racing such is there superiority over the chasing pack, the possibility of great trilogies or rivalries, which other champions have had is seriously mitigated.

Also think there is to large degree something of a myth when it comes to the heavies that we want clean cut, well mannered role models such as the brothers, think more often than not fans have warmed to either brash or outspoken characters, not always the case but is why Ali, Tyson, Johnson have long retained fascination over guys like Lewis, Patterson and Charles who were all fine fighters, as indeed are the brothers.

Poor standard of the division is the answer you're looking for Truss. That, coupled with the consensus that despite their obvious talent the K's can be very dull fighters and can shut out their opposition in the most boring fashion. The heavyweights would at least have a lifeline if it provided a vein of regular entertainment, regardless of the fighters' quality, which is sadly not the case.

It's cliché but as people have so often said, HW is dead. You know the best have been able to exceed the division to an extent that they now have nothing better to do than scrape the bottom of the barrel when over the last few years you've seen the K's taking on the likes of Peter, Briggs and Sosnowski and about to take on Chisora and Mormeck.

Funnily enough Vitali has given a true great in Lewis, albeit on the tail end of his career, a tough fight. Unfortunately we'll never know how the Brothers Grimm will have fared had greatness still been in abundance at HW.

You're probably right.....suppose everybody needs people to elevate them if they look charisma....

Can we watch the Anti-American stuff that certain posters are generating..

Don't mind abuse...but I think making big slurs on certain personalities without proof is pretty sad....

Nancy Reagan..Floyd Patterson deserve better than to be the target of bigots..with obvious agendas..

Very much agree with you about Patterson, fairly unsavoury having to read such vile abuse of a great man on a boxing forum of all places.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're probably right.....suppose everybody needs people to elevate them if they look charisma....

Can we watch the Anti-American stuff that certain posters are generating..

Don't mind abuse...but I think making big slurs on certain personalities without proof is pretty sad....

Nancy Reagan..Floyd Patterson deserve better than to be the target of bigots..with obvious agendas..

Give it a rest son. Stop playing the victim. Its so american/milwall.

I have to agree with AZ if the Klits were American they would be shoved down our throats so much my unborn children would know who they are.

Why haven't they transcended?


Weak era. But more importantly they won't(understandably,) fight each other. Fans want to know who's number one. Good fighters though.

I don't see what they have that the Americans would try to promote.

They're not exciting in or out the ring, tell me i'm wrong Truss but America likes excitement more than quality.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't see what they have that the Americans would try to promote.

They're not exciting in or out the ring, tell me i'm wrong Truss but America likes excitement more than quality.

Trussy doesn't speak on behalf of Americans. My father in law reckong the K bros would be huge if they were Americans. His opinion is more valid that Trussy given that he lives in USA and is American.

The K bros are a marketing man's dream. Intelligent, good looking, down to earth and white. And before you go off on another one, read the OP.

A marketing dream is an exciting fighter like Pacquiao or someone who is exciting outside of it like Mayweather, being intelligent doesn't get someone noticed.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A marketing dream is an exciting fighter like Pacquiao or someone who is exciting outside of it like Mayweather, being intelligent doesn't get someone noticed.

Stick to boxing. You know little about marketing. The HW champion of the world who is white, American, intelligent, good looking, articulate and much more is a huge plus for any marketing agent. Incredible to think otherwise.

They'd be on cereal boxes and selling sanitory towels. When they retire a career in politics or Holywood would be theirs for the taking.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A marketing dream is an exciting fighter like Pacquiao or someone who is exciting outside of it like Mayweather, being intelligent doesn't get someone noticed.

Stick to boxing. You know little about marketing. The HW champion of the world who is white, American, intelligent, good looking, articulate and much more is a huge plus for any marketing agent. Incredible to think otherwise.

They'd be on cereal boxes and selling sanitory towels. When they retire a career in politics or Holywood would be theirs for the taking.

No they wouldn't and your favourite fighter Marciano would highlight that being white doesn't make you more marketable, nobody cared for him during his tenure. Excitement is needed to be marketable and being white doesn't mean as much any more.

Its interesting - because in eastern Europe - from Germany eastwards - they certainly are transcendent figures.

However - much of that is due to the German's unique ability to be prepared to support anything with a German flag on it. Even if it isn't German - but just likes to fight there. Ina Menzer - Kazakh pro female boxer - who can sell out arenas in Germany. In the rest of the world - female boxing fighters are lucky if they can sell out their front yard...

Both brothers in the same division doesn't help - the manner of their victories doesn't help. People don't like mismatches that last 8 rounds. They never look tested - so why are they taking 12 round UDs? People want a mismatch to end in a Tysonesque KO.

To be fair, if we were Klit supporters I'd imagine we'd be saying Why should they be tested? The fact that they've eased through anything put in front of them just shows that they're the best.

I think the Klits are greats in the respect that they're the best of their time, although their time is perhaps one of the worst times. For nine out of ten people beating whatever's put in front of you is enough to question no further. That doesn't erase the fact that their style is most unappealing and a choice between a Wlad fight and your everyday episode of QI would have me sweating.

I have to go along with oxring, they are very popular in Germany and in Ukraine (their home nation). The talk is Vitaly Klitschko will be a certain future President of the Ukraine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_Klitschko#Political_career

Both Vitali and Wladimar have PhD's in sports sciences. If they had based themselves in the US (rather than Germany) and then had become US citizens, then I am certain (as per Azania) they would have been popular there, and certainly a subject for a "Hollywood" film. Their father was a "Soviet Air Force major general and a military attaché of the Soviet Union in East Germany. He was also one of the commanders in charge of cleaning up the effects of the Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster in 1986 and was afterward diagnosed with cancer..."

What we really need is for someone to put pressure on the Klits. However whenever a guy gets to the ring, he just circles around rather than putting pressure directly on the Klits.

Problem is Lionel that Klitschkos can throw a straight right while any straight right back will be punished with ease. And you cant throw the overhand right because you smack the inside of your arm against the outside of their left hand more often than not. Uppercuts are ineffectual because they are too big and you cant throw short ones and going to the body is difficult because you leave yourself open. The potshotting technique could work if someone was willing to take the punishment but that heavy jab and monstrous right usually put paid to the fight in the opponents. In effect can only throw the left with any hope of it landing with any venom and even that is negated by Wlads quick feet. I think most opponents rob themselves of any chance by coming in overweight so they can hold their own in the middle yet those who come in shape find themselves being pushed around like a ragdoll.

Its extraordinarily difficult to put pressure on someone with so stiff a jab or excellent power in the straight punches and their strength in the middle tends to wear what resistance the opponent has left. Either need someone just as big as them to beat them or someone so quick they can hit and be out of range before retaliation or a clinch comes in. Genuine nightmare opponents.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A marketing dream is an exciting fighter like Pacquiao or someone who is exciting outside of it like Mayweather, being intelligent doesn't get someone noticed.

Stick to boxing. You know little about marketing. The HW champion of the world who is white, American, intelligent, good looking, articulate and much more is a huge plus for any marketing agent. Incredible to think otherwise.

They'd be on cereal boxes and selling sanitory towels. When they retire a career in politics or Holywood would be theirs for the taking.

No they wouldn't and your favourite fighter Marciano would highlight that being white doesn't make you more marketable, nobody cared for him during his tenure. Excitement is needed to be marketable and being white doesn't mean as much any more.

I'm not goiing to disagree with you for obvious reasons. You'll throw another tantrum. So we agree. If they were American no-one would notice. Happy?

Act like a child if you so wish but I see no evidence of America lapping up fighters who are boring both outside and inside the ring, it's never happened.

Why don't you just get lost...you vile racist bigot..

I thought this was the 21st century Truss where the biggest money spinners in the sport over the past 40 odd years have been black, think we're long past the stage where skin colour dictates how many tickets you sell.

I guess you could argue they have transcended the sport in some ways, look at the uprisal of the sport in the countries such as Germany, it really came into it's own with the Klits being super dominant.

They aren't American and generally aren't great to watch so haven't taken America by storm.

They aren't American and aren't that exciting in or out of the ring. They make great money in Germany so I don't think they really had a good go at cracking the american market.

A lack of genuine american contenders has played a major role in their lack of popularity in the States.

AlexHuckerby wrote:I guess you could argue they have transcended the sport in some ways, look at the uprisal of the sport in the countries such as Germany, it really came into it's own with the Klits being super dominant.

They aren't American and generally aren't great to watch so haven't taken America by storm.

Michalczewski, Ottke and Beyer had a bigger part to play in that, without there popularity there wouldn't have been the foundations for the brothers to build on.

i think they have, just not in america or the UK.

however, i'd argue you wouldnt find many people in this country who could name mayweather and manny but not one of the klits.

they haven't bee in any massive fights, because there is no one to fight. it's not their fault at all.