Ireland vs Wales - This weekends BIG GAME...!

First topic message reminder :

Venue: Aviva Stadium Date: Sunday, 5 February Kick-off: 1500 GMT

Coverage: Watch live on BBC One, BBC One HD & online from 1400 GMT; full commentary on BBC Radio 5 Live Sports Extra; text commentary on BBC Sport website & mobiles.

Referee : Wayne Barnes (England)

Touch judges : Dave Pearson & Stuart Terheege (both England)

TV : Geoff Warren (England)

IRELAND : 15 - R Kearney; 14 - T Bowe, 13 - F McFadden, 12 - G D'Arcy, 11 - A Trimble (Ulster); 10 - J Sexton, 9 - C Murray; 1- C Healy, 2 - R Best, 3 - M Ross, 4 - D O'Callaghan, 5 - P O'Connell (C), 6 - S Ferris, 7 - S O'Brien, 8 - J Heaslip.

Replacements: 16 - S Cronin, 17 - T Court, 18 - D Ryan, 19 - P O'Mahony, 20 - E Reddan, 21 - R O'Gara, 22 - D Kearney.

WALES : 15 - L Halfpenny; 14 - A Cuthbert, 13 - J Davies, 12 - J Roberts, 11 - G North; 10 - R Priestland, 9 - M Phillips; 1 - R Gill, 2 - H Bennett, 3 - A Jones, 4 - B Davies, 5 - I Evans, 6 - R Jones, 7- S Warburton (C), 8 - T Faletau.

Replacements:16 - K Owens, 17 - P James, 18 - A Powell, 19 - J Tipuric, 20 - Lloyd Williams, 21 - J Hook, 22 - Scott Williams.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think Heaslip or any of the backrow should be dropped yet. Why people think playing POM at 7 will solve the whole "natural 7" issue (which isn't an issue), when he isn't even a "natural 7" himself, I will never know.

It doesnt matter whether you think he is a natural 7 or not. What he does do (or did when he played 7 against Northampton) was slow their ball down something we could not do today. Regardless he is more dynamic than either of the three incumbents in this area and you could include him at 6, 7 or 8 as they were disappointing individually and as a unit. At the moment he is the best option at 7 we have in the country.

gowales wrote:For the rest of the 6 nations you should be fine with the current backrow. Im not really sure who you should bring in to blood though. I dont really rate POM either. He looks like a Neil Best type flanker to me.

I think he is at his worst trying to do work at the breakdown. Gives away a fair few penalties. Otherwise he is a very good ball carrier and does a lot of the donkey work. He also seems to have a good rugby brain. Hope he settles as a 6 or an 8.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

gowales wrote:For the rest of the 6 nations you should be fine with the current backrow. Im not really sure who you should bring in to blood though. I dont really rate POM either. He looks like a Neil Best type flanker to me.

I think he is at his worst trying to do work at the breakdown. Gives away a fair few penalties. Otherwise he is a very good ball carrier and does a lot of the donkey work. He also seems to have a good rugby brain. Hope he settles as a 6 or an 8.

Not like SOB who er gave away how many penalties today (at the breakdown mostly)....

DOD wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think Heaslip or any of the backrow should be dropped yet. Why people think playing POM at 7 will solve the whole "natural 7" issue (which isn't an issue), when he isn't even a "natural 7" himself, I will never know.

It doesnt matter whether you think he is a natural 7 or not. What he does do (or did when he played 7 against Northampton) was slow their ball down something we could not do today. Regardless he is more dynamic than either of the three incumbents in this area and you could include him at 6, 7 or 8 as they were disappointing individually and as a unit. At the moment he is the best option at 7 we have in the country.

I thought SOB slowed down the opposition ball plenty today actually. What we didn't do was secure our own ball and I don't think any 7 would solve that. Like I said that is just basics. And it doesn't matter what I think or not, the fact is he isn't a natural 7 and there is no point just claiming he is. Whether he can develop into being one is a different story, though I don't see why he should when we can't just do that with SOB currently, or the likes of Dominic Ryan.

DOD wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

gowales wrote:For the rest of the 6 nations you should be fine with the current backrow. Im not really sure who you should bring in to blood though. I dont really rate POM either. He looks like a Neil Best type flanker to me.

I think he is at his worst trying to do work at the breakdown. Gives away a fair few penalties. Otherwise he is a very good ball carrier and does a lot of the donkey work. He also seems to have a good rugby brain. Hope he settles as a 6 or an 8.

Not like SOB who er gave away how many penalties today (at the breakdown mostly)....

I watched SOB very carefully and counted one, actually. There were a few times the camera zoomed on him for some reason, as he was involved in the ruck, but the referee called a different number. Criticising SOB hardly makes POM look good at the breakdown either.

Getting POM into the backrow could improve it, no doubt.

But it's our weakness in midfield that is our major problem. It's not good enough defensively or offensively, and there has to be changes.

At the expense of who though and why would it improve it? The back row to me isn't the problem at all.

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:Don't have a Plan B? Question marks over Plan A.

We just had Sexton kick down their throats. We're relying on players to figure out what needs to be done themselves.

Exactly. He has a team full of players, who take on Europe (Welsh sides dont even compete) year-on-year, and we take their best down regularly. They join Ireland, under a different coaching team, play dreadful rugby and fail. Continually. So what is the coach doing about it? The same thing. Every time.

Its not rocket-science.

It's because, with the Irish regions, all your best players are your non Irish qualified players. Without your astute foreign recruitment policy, lets be honest, your regions would be nowhere near where they are now. As a result your national team suffers as your Irish players are no better than what the rest of us have.

Your back row will get the better of the other 6 nations back rows - i think people really underestimate the welsh back row - Ryan Jones was excellent today, your problem (as identified) is in midfield, sort that and you have a really good side

Even though the only foreign player starting for Leinster is Nacewa. Stop spouting rubbish.

WelshinEdinburgh wrote:Your back row will get the better of the other 6 nations back rows - i think people really underestimate the welsh back row - Ryan Jones was excellent today, your problem (as identified) is in midfield, sort that and you have a really good side

Well, maybe not France...

WelshinEdinburgh wrote:Your back row will get the better of the other 6 nations back rows - i think people really underestimate the welsh back row - Ryan Jones was excellent today, your problem (as identified) is in midfield, sort that and you have a really good side

France have the best back row for sure. The very highly rated Faletau was pretty anonymous for Wales I thought, getting beaten in the contact area while Jones was the pick of the bunch. The centres are where you absolutely destroyed us.

According to the stats he gave away three penalties at the breakdown and didnt win any turnovers. When he did slow down the ball he was penalised as he was mostly ineffectual, Healy and POC were our most effective.

Regarding POM all I will say is that in his last game at 7 he was pretty effective at the breakdown. Along with all the other areas of his game. He could play hooker for all I care, if he is good enough he is old enough.

While our backrow are all good inidividually (except for Heaslip at the moment) as a unit they are poor and unbalanced looking. I would have POM for any of them. But if you pushed me it would be either Ferris or Heaslip with POM at 7 and SOB moved to 6 or 8.

I will watch again but I do not see where SOB gave away more penalties than one. Three isn't great, but it isn't really bad either, but I do not think he gave away three. POM will get his chance, he is an outstanding player but what we need to focus on right now is the real problem areas, and our back row is not one of them IMO.

Stats say he gave away three won no turnovers. Regarding the backrow well when Wales had the ball in the first half we couldnt get it back off them for wht seemed like ages, the same with the posession in the lead up to the penalty at the end. The backrow didnt make much yardage and to my mind were blown backwards on occassions.

You said felatau was anonymous yet I bet his tackle rate was high and he won turnovers (at least two I counted possibly more).

Well then that is totally wrong because he definitely made at least one turnover. I bet you SOB's tackle rate was high also, he made plenty of covering tackles that our centres couldn't make themselves. He was very good in defence I felt.

Apparently turnover stats are TO lost not won. I had the same thing with Robshaw yesterday

Well then that explains a lot!

DOD wrote:According to the stats he gave away three penalties at the breakdown and didnt win any turnovers. When he did slow down the ball he was penalised as he was mostly ineffectual, Healy and POC were our most effective.

Sorry DOD but you are being disingenuous here. That should read "Healy, POC and TRIMBLE were our most effective". If you are using these stats then you have to include him.

roddersm wrote: I (unfortunately) agree Ruby. Well played sir.

Cheers Rodders - I think some people saying that Wales are just a bunch of big backs are missing the point completely. The ball retntion up front was superb and Phillips had an armchair ride when the welsh donkeys were doing the donkey work. The welsh forwards provided a secure platform all day and for Wales to take the kick off at 77 mins and go through phase after phase to try to gte a winning position says everything about the forward performance and their confidence. Thanks for your generous comments.

The Great Aukster wrote:

DOD wrote:According to the stats he gave away three penalties at the breakdown and didnt win any turnovers. When he did slow down the ball he was penalised as he was mostly ineffectual, Healy and POC were our most effective.

Sorry DOD but you are being disingenuous here. That should read "Healy, POC and TRIMBLE were our most effective". If you are using these stats then you have to include him.

ha ha...apparently the stats refer to conceded. So POC, Healy and Trimble gave away the ball....given how much ball trimble got thats a lot to concede.

Anyhow regarding SOB he gave away three penalties. He is a great backrower just not a 7 (he isnt going to be near player of the year this year)...

He played 7 plenty when he got player of the year last season.

So when Kidney gets fired at the end of this 6 nations (Haskell is right Ireland will be 4th) will he be lions coach?

How many times Rory? He played one or two games, he mostly played 6 or 8 when heaslip was injured at the start of the season. Plus all I will say is Leinster first half v Saints he played 7, second half he played 6.

DOD wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

DOD wrote:According to the stats he gave away three penalties at the breakdown and didnt win any turnovers. When he did slow down the ball he was penalised as he was mostly ineffectual, Healy and POC were our most effective.

Sorry DOD but you are being disingenuous here. That should read "Healy, POC and TRIMBLE were our most effective". If you are using these stats then you have to include him.

ha ha...apparently the stats refer to conceded. So POC, Healy and Trimble gave away the ball....given how much ball trimble got thats a lot to concede.

Anyhow regarding SOB he gave away three penalties. He is a great backrower just not a 7 (he isnt going to be near player of the year this year)...

The point was that you were being disingenuous by selectively using the statistics. When you thought they were good you chose to ignore the Trimble turnovers and now that you realise they are turnovers conceded you try to make Trimble's worse.

DOD wrote:How many times Rory? He played one or two games, he mostly played 6 or 8 when heaslip was injured at the start of the season. Plus all I will say is Leinster first half v Saints he played 7, second half he played 6.

I have no idea how many times he played 7 to be honest with you, and I agree with you about the saints game, but I think there were more factors than that. This year he has also played 6/8 plenty, and he just hasn't been as effective at carrying as last year, but that happens. You have to offer more than just carrying as eventually teams learn how to deal with you. I feel he has too, but he needs to be more consistent. I think SOB is a developing young player and we should be patient.

I disagree to an extent. But sure we could agree to disagree for the whole evening...there are bigger problems...

My team for next week..

1. Healy,
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. POC
6.SOB or Ferris
7.POM
8. SOB or Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. A concrete block that can run and pass..other than that I would try McFadden
13. Earls
14. D Kearney
15. R Kearney - although for other skills I would nearly give D Hurley a go...why the hell not :-).

I think 12 and 13 had mundic block today

We will lose to France in Paris and this tournament is over for us. Best use the other home games v Italy & Scotland to see what we have. And continue it v New England on Paddys Day. That way, at least this 6-N is not a total write-off.

It wont happen. But.

Id bring POM in at 7 for a bit of necessary mayhem at the breakdown. SOB is lost there - even against a Welsh 3rd choice. Bench him for impact. Start Ryan at 4. Play McFadden at 12 and Earls at 13. Reddan with Sexton. Whats to lose? All to gain. Long term.

Gibson wrote:We will lose to France in Paris and this tournament is over for us. Best use the other home games v Italy & Scotland to see what we have. And continue it v New England on Paddys Day. That way, at least this 6-N is not a total write-off.

It wont happen. But.

Id bring POM in at 7 for a bit of necessary mayhem. SOB is lost there - even against a Welsh 3rd choice. Bench him for impact. Start Ryan at 4. Play McFadden at 12 and Earls at 13. Reddan with Sexton. Whats to lose? All to gain.

Redden is yesterdays man, Murray and Kearney were the best backs today I would have TOL back instead of Redden. Also with calls for changes Gibson why not have Cronin (been playing better than Strauss in Leinster), also Heaslip is cr.p and should be dropped from the 22 it might wake him up, in the backs would have Kearney junior for Trimble as mentioned and why not Zebo.... You have been calling for the exciting changes and backs to be included...in terms of creativity why not have Denis Hurley instead of Kearney (who was great under the high ball but that was it).

Who is being too conservative now?

This long term argument is becoming a position for every coach to fall back on when they lose must win games. Huge punch in the kidneys.

Ha! Thats rich. Ive been vindicated after 3 years of Irish self-dillusion, pretence and BS.

OK, fair calls. Murray should be given more time with Sexton against lesser opposition.

But TOL? Dont make me laff.

Gibson - I've defended Kidney up to now, but I'm coming round to your way of thinking. He is consistently getting out thought by other coaches and that lack of direction is not taking the team forward.

Gibson wrote:Ha! Thats rich. Ive been vindicated after 3 years of Irish self-dillusion, pretence and BS.

OK, fair calls. Murray should be given more time with Sexton against lesser opposition.

But TOL? Dont make me laff.

As I said Redden is yesterdays man, TOL would do just fine. Note no one has mentioned the S word who was steady(ish) but poor on occassions...good in defence though....but lacked creativity.

I think some radical thinking is required for Ireland wiithout making wholesale changes - Kearney had a great game, I like Trimble but he needs to come lookimng a bit more - Midfield once your main strength is unsure of itself and maybe a failure to develop here. Sexton IMO is class, end of but I remain unconvinced by Murray - In the front 8 you have the pieces but they are not in the right place, they don't seem to work as a unit. All good individual ball carriers but as Tipuric showed come 2nd half there's sometimes more subtlety required from your big men. And of course it never helps you lot being favourites so you have a good chance next weekend. I'm a great fan of Nevin Spence as he's a wild banshy and at the moment you could do with a few of those to stoke things up.

The Great Aukster wrote:Gibson - I've defended Kidney up to now, but I'm coming round to your way of thinking. He is consistently getting out thought by other coaches and that lack of direction is not taking the team forward.

I dont think it would make a hill of beans a difference who is the coach. I agree that I wouldnt be too unhappy to see him go but I think the difference between intl and HC is clear to see. More importantly the lack of leadership is shocking. It seems if we dont have BOD and POC on the field we are clueless.

A lot on here are saying Kearney had a very good game, yes some great catches and chases, how many tackles did he make, he was nowhere near stopping 3 tries! Is he doing a job of a full back defending and coming into the line in attack?

DOD wrote:

Gibson wrote:Ha! Thats rich. Ive been vindicated after 3 years of Irish self-dillusion, pretence and BS.

OK, fair calls. Murray should be given more time with Sexton against lesser opposition.

But TOL? Dont make me laff.

As I said Redden is yesterdays man, TOL would do just fine. Note no one has mentioned the S word who was steady(ish) but poor on occassions...good in defence though....but lacked creativity.

True. Im really glad ROG saw us home.

The real problem is Kidney, Decco. Admit it. Go on. You are a clever man. You know your rugby. Its gone way past provincial at this stage. Id rather watch the full young Munster team play for us, and give them a remit, rather than watch that clueless Shoite, I witnessed today - again.

Phhoke the provinces. The problem is at the top and after hearing Deccies spiel after it, If I was near him now, Id head-butt him. He just doesnt get it. Does he?

Perhaps you need to focus on your fabulous back row - awj is always a dead cert for Wales - yet we "never" win when he's on the field. Plenty of gusto but no winno

I know there's a lot of provincial rivalry but do you think singing 2 long songs at the start just takes a lot out of the players

now now...not ROGs fault our backrow couldnt win the ball off the Clontarf over 60's (ladies) team.

I honestly do not know if Kidney is the issue but I would be not unhappy to see him leave but I dont think a new coach will get us the bounce you think it will. I think there are about another five player past their sell by date on the team.

RubyGuby wrote:I know there's a lot of provincial rivalry but do you think singing 2 long songs at the start just takes a lot out of the players

Phhoke right off you!

Well done man. Suitably impressed sir. It wasnt even close. Despite the score. Congrats.

You've got to get over it somehow Mr G - Usually takes me 2-3 days, unless it's England then it's about 11 months and 3 weeks

DOD wrote:now now...not ROGs fault our backrow couldnt win the ball off the Clontarf over 60's (ladies) team.

I honestly do not know if Kidney is the issue but I would be not unhappy to see him leave but I dont think a new coach will get us the bounce you think it will. I think there are about another five player past their sell by date on the team.

Dont be silly. He is. He's been locked in some disillusional bubble, since he won the SLAM with Eddies team.

On the 5 players. Let me guess.

1. Donnacha
2. Darcy
3. ROG
4. Bowe
5. ?

DOC,
Darcy
Redden
ROG (if Madigan is brought in)
Trimble

These are from the 22.
Bowe and Heaslip dropped to the bench (Heaslip could count himself lucky)

Fact (I hate the word) is, the affect of Ireland without BOD was blatant today. Not only is he the best player we ever had, and still is. He makes the rest look and play better than then are. That was exposed today. No one is talking about this.

Why would you drop Trimble?

Gibson wrote:Fact (I hate the word) is, the affect of Ireland without BOD was blatant today. Not only is he the best player we ever had, and still is. He makes the rest look and play better than then are. That was exposed today. No one is talking about this.

The only player who would have given 100% in every tackle to try and stop the Welsh backs.

I mentioned the leadership issue a while back...that is why players like POM should be fastracked (most natural leader I have ever seen...he was born with a Captains armband - plus he is mad)....

RE Trimble...like a number of players I think he is the past and not good enough for international and the step up from HC is too much....

DOD wrote:DOC,
Darcy
Redden
ROG (if Madigan is brought in)
Trimble

These are from the 22.
Bowe and Heaslip dropped to the bench (Heaslip could count himself lucky)

I agree on the 1st 3. And Id drop 1F to the bench after that, not Heaslip. Move SOB to 6. POM to 7. Madigan will come through. But he is not being let kick. I blame Schmidt on that. He wants to. Badly. And is a Halfpenny type kicker. Huge kick on him. Bit harsh on Trimble. The game-plan (Ha!) didnt suit him. Think Larry Gogan.

Why do we do this to ourselves? Kidney wont change. Lets wait till he's gone. After NZ beat us 3-0 in the Summer Series, and puts the final nails in a coffin, that has been left open for too long.

In the meantime, I wish the IRFU had some balls and the shekels, to bring in a French backs coach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24uUzJgfwQ&feature=related