France - Ireland one win in 40 years....

First topic message reminder :

Regardless as to whether we had beaten Wales off the park last week it is a fact that our record against France is as bad as our record against SH nations. Our win ratio is terrible and we have beaten them only 9 times in the last 40 years. We have only won twice in Paris back in 72 and lately in 2000 when BOD scored the hattrick (against what was arguably one of the weakest French teams put out).

So if Ireland win next weekend in Paris it will be a major victory for us. The French when they play Ireland enjoy the occassion completely as they never expect to lose (regardless of how their clubs are doing in the HC).

So who expects us to do well or are we on a hiding to nothing? What if we go there and win, does that vindicate Kidney as coach or as has been said with games like Australia it was the players wot won it not the coach....

With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the usual suspects (specifically Leinster supporters) blinded by there own infallibility (in other words our players who are doing so well in the HC - against mediocre opponents - cant play that badly due to their own inadequacies so therefore it is down to the coach) moaning about Kidney....what is the expectation next weekend.

Standulstermen wrote:Does anyone seriously believe that even if we summon a performancen it will mean anything? We thought the tide was turning after the england game last year, we dared to dream after Australia. I am finding it very hard to get enthused about the national team at the minute. Deccie seems to be O'sullivan all over again

Oh it'll take more than one game to prove it isn't the yearly fluke. But if it's a truly a good performance, with players playing as we know they can, then I'll be saying well done - that's more like it. I'll be happy not necessarily because I think all our problems are over...but because it'll be another example that proves these players can play a game that can punish the best sides in the world. It'll be ammunition against the guys beginning to creep out of the woodwork and suggesting 'Hey, you know, maybe our players simply aren't good enough.'

'Hey, you know, maybe our players simply aren't good enough.'

That bugs me beyond belief also when people say that.

I am absolutely fuming that D'Arcy is still in the side. He has done next to nothing to deserve his place on the team for at least two years.

I sometimes do wonder what Deccie see in him with his constant selection....

I've given up already Billy. #doomandgloomandproudofit

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Does anyone seriously believe that even if we summon a performancen it will mean anything? We thought the tide was turning after the england game last year, we dared to dream after Australia. I am finding it very hard to get enthused about the national team at the minute. Deccie seems to be O'sullivan all over again

That's the big problem,it's going to take a lot more than one good performance to restore faith in the national team.Kidney had the backing of the fans when he came in and then winning the Grand Slam meant he earned the right to take us to the world cup but he hasn't brought the team forward since 2009 and it looks like his time as head coach will be remembered for wasting the best players ever available to an Irish team.

I see from your previous post you are mindreading as well now in terms of game plans...

Regarding the players I think our players are good but the best players ever??? bit over the top in relation to your point. We do not have enough world class players, we have good players but are they good enough? I am not 100% sure.....

Lets compare teams

Medard - Kearney
Clerc - Trimble
Rougerie - Earls
Fofana - Darcy
Malzieu - Bowe
Trinh - Sexton
Parra - Murray
Picamoles - Heaslip
Hari - SOB
Dusatoir - Ferris
Maestri - POC
Pape - DOC
Mas - Ross
Szwars - Best
Poux - Healy

When compared man for man who do you think are better?

I would put 7 French 3 Irish and 5 for debate...

I am completely flabbergasted Willy, seriously have no idea anymore

And who do you think wins between Rougerie and Earls out of interest?

Lads come on have some faith. Stop putting the French on a pedestal.

Ireland by 3 - 10 points. We have excellent players, lets not talk ourselves down here.

BELIEVE.

I don't agree with what DOD says, but I am wondering if he thinks the Munster players are better

DOD wrote:
I see from your previous post you are mindreading as well now in terms of game plans...

Regarding the players I think our players are good but the best players ever??? bit over the top in relation to your point. We do not have enough world class players, we have good players but are they good enough? I am not 100% sure.....

Lets compare teams

Medard - Kearney Debatable
Clerc - Trimble Clerc
Rougerie - Earls Debatable
Fofana - Darcy Fofana, D'Arcy will be munched
Malzieu - Bowe Malzieu
Trinh - Sexton Sexton, just
Parra - Murray Parra, just
Picamoles - Heaslip Picamoles
Hari - SOB Debatable
Dusatoir - Ferris Debatable
Maestri - POC POC
Pape - DOC Pape
Mas - Ross Ross
Szwars - Best Best
Poux - Healy Healy

When compared man for man who do you think are better?

I would put 7 French 3 Irish and 5 for debate...

I have 4 debateable, 6 for France and 5 for Ireland.

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Does anyone seriously believe that even if we summon a performancen it will mean anything? We thought the tide was turning after the england game last year, we dared to dream after Australia. I am finding it very hard to get enthused about the national team at the minute. Deccie seems to be O'sullivan all over again

That's the big problem,it's going to take a lot more than one good performance to restore faith in the national team.Kidney had the backing of the fans when he came in and then winning the Grand Slam meant he earned the right to take us to the world cup but he hasn't brought the team forward since 2009 and it looks like his time as head coach will be remembered for wasting the best players ever available to an Irish team.

I see from your previous post you are mindreading as well now in terms of game plans...

Regarding the players I think our players are good but the best players ever??? bit over the top in relation to your point. We do not have enough world class players, we have good players but are they good enough? I am not 100% sure.....

Lets compare teams

Medard - Kearney
Clerc - Trimble
Rougerie - Earls
Fofana - Darcy
Malzieu - Bowe
Trinh - Sexton
Parra - Murray
Picamoles - Heaslip
Hari - SOB
Dusatoir - Ferris
Maestri - POC
Pape - DOC
Mas - Ross
Szwars - Best
Poux - Healy

When compared man for man who do you think are better?

I would put 7 French 3 Irish and 5 for debate...

Fair is fair and you could be blamed for having a fair assessment there DOD.

Now do the same for Wales, England, Italy... our best against their best.

Seems after 3 games on the trot, some people are beginning to doubt we have more 'world class' players than Wales. If so, that's pretty much the last decade of positive IRFU developments piddled down the toilet. Gloom works two ways here in Ireland. One branch begins to think we deserve our beatings, the other branch gets mad that the white flag is hoisted so readily.

The thing that also has to be taken into consideration is that the potential of many of our players is not being fulfilled (and that actually includes Earls), and that is the frustrating thing. It is no coincidence that players are tearing the place up at HEC level but look like different players at international level. And no, it isn't because "international rugby is a big step up".

Sorry rodders but on what basis should we believe. I will be delighted if they win but as I said before I think it will take 4 wins and a semblance of a game plan evolving before I believe any hype

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing that also has to be taken into consideration is that the potential of many of our players is not being fulfilled (and that actually includes Earls), and that is the frustrating thing. It is no coincidence that players are tearing the place up at HEC level but look like different players at international level. And no, it isn't because "international rugby is a big step up".

+1...

DOD wrote:
I see from your previous post you are mindreading as well now in terms of game plans...

Regarding the players I think our players are good but the best players ever??? bit over the top in relation to your point. We do not have enough world class players, we have good players but are they good enough? I am not 100% sure.....

Lets compare teams

Medard - Kearney
Clerc - Trimble
Rougerie - Earls
Fofana - Darcy
Malzieu - Bowe
Trinh - Sexton
Parra - Murray
Picamoles - Heaslip
Hari - SOB
Dusatoir - Ferris
Maestri - POC
Pape - DOC
Mas - Ross
Szwars - Best
Poux - Healy

When compared man for man who do you think are better?

I would put 7 French 3 Irish and 5 for debate...

Lol no mind reading just making assumptions based on the dross I've been watching Ireland play over the last 3 years.

I suppose I can't make a definitive statement as I haven't seen enough rugby pre 1990 but in my opinion yes we have the best players available to an Irish coach and he is wasting their talent over and over again.

I'll agree with you the French players are better overall and being at home should be favourites to win,what you don't seem to get is I have no problem with Ireland losing as long as they play close to their best.Since 2009 I would say Kidney has got the best out of his players 4 possibly 5 times,that's too few and it doesn't seem to matter who is picked.

Turn it on it's head. Say Irish players were handed Gatland and his coaches for a season, and went to Poland and the whole freeze, refreeze now train hard bootcamp business. And say Welsh players were handed our coaching panel for a season.

When they'd meet - what side would storm out of the blocks and attack with serious intent?

We don't have the players? Bulls...hit.

eirebilly wrote:

DOD wrote:
I see from your previous post you are mindreading as well now in terms of game plans...

Regarding the players I think our players are good but the best players ever??? bit over the top in relation to your point. We do not have enough world class players, we have good players but are they good enough? I am not 100% sure.....

Lets compare teams

Medard - Kearney Debatable
Clerc - Trimble Clerc
Rougerie - Earls Debatable
Fofana - Darcy Fofana, D'Arcy will be munched
Malzieu - Bowe Malzieu
Trinh - Sexton Sexton, just
Parra - Murray Parra, just
Picamoles - Heaslip Picamoles
Hari - SOB Debatable
Dusatoir - Ferris Debatable
Maestri - POC POC
Pape - DOC Pape
Mas - Ross Ross
Szwars - Best Best
Poux - Healy Healy

When compared man for man who do you think are better?

I would put 7 French 3 Irish and 5 for debate...

I have 4 debateable, 6 for France and 5 for Ireland.

Rougerie - Earls Debatable
Mas - Ross Ross
Szwars - Best Best
Poux - Healy Healy



Come on. That has to be a wind up

Go back to the Ferris thread Chunky..

So your attention has turned to me again has it Chunky........

Ah Chunky..back to chatting about rugby games? Good.

Just ignore him, and lets talk about rugby shall we

I do think that Ireland edge it in the Front row.. That is only based on last weeks performance from the French.

Rougerie is one of the greatest three quarter's / 13s Europe has produced in the last 20 years!!!

There is nothing debatable about him being far and away superior to Keith "can't tackle won't tackle" Earls.

And as for the entire Irish front row being better than their counterparts - that is some optimism!

Well I think Best is one of the best hookers in the world, as he was in the world cup also, and Healy is one of the best looseheads in the world, so yeah I agree. Mas I feel is better than Ross however.

Don't agree about Ross being better than Mas but Best is currently playing the rugby of his life and Healy imo will be Irelands next superstar in the mould of Keith Wood,BoD and O'Connell.

Agree with eirebilly I mean. Chunky, go away

Standulstermen wrote:Sorry rodders but on what basis should we believe. I will be delighted if they win but as I said before I think it will take 4 wins and a semblance of a game plan evolving before I believe any hype

Stand if I told you in November that Ulster would have steam rollered Leicester and pushed Clermont to the limit en route to reaching the HEC QF? I wouldn't, but I still went to Ravenhill or turned on the TV with a sense of belief and expectation.

I didn't think Munster would qualify either but they ended up unbeaten.

To the brave nothing is impossible. These are good players, no exceptional players .... things are not perfect but theres no reason to lose hope or lower the expectations.

We CAN win our remaining games and then we can worry about the future but there is no reason not to believe we can beat France on Saturday.

I was going to say that Mas and Ross was debateable but i feel as part of the unit Ross deserved the nod.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Healy is one of the best looseheads in the world, so yeah I agree..

http://images4.hiboox.com/images/4111/diapo76537b44b48c9ffef3ef38351b315dc6.gif

Well done, one example of a bad scrum from Healy! Now, off you go

A persistant little devil isnt he........

man for man:
Kearney vs Médard - Kearney, just.
Clerc vs Bowe - Clerc
Rougerie vs Earls - Rougerie
D'Arcy vs Fofanna - even.
Trimble vs Malzieu - Malzieu.
Sexton vs Trinh-Duc - Sexton most days.
Murray vs Parra - Parra.
Picamoles vs Heaslip - Heaslip.
Harinordoquy vs SOB - Harinordoquy
Ferris vs Dusautoir - Dusautoir
POC vs Maestri - POC
DOC vs Pape - Pape
Mas vs Ross - Mas
Szarsiewski vs Best - Best (Szarsiewski not at his best recently)
Healy vs Debaty - Healy
6 to Ireland, 8 to France, one even. But I see the ones I give to the Irish as being a lot closer generally than the ones I give to the French.

Heaslip is definitely not better than Picamoles. Picamoles has got to be the best 8 in the world right now based on his form this year.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
D'Arcy vs Fofanna - even.
Picamoles vs Heaslip - Heaslip.
Healy vs Debaty - Healy
.

I just cannot udnerstand how you even begin to arrive at these conclusions.

Have you seen Fofana's form compared to D'Arcy's?

Ok, what facets of D'arcy's play are better than Fofanas?

What parts of Heaslips curent form is better than Picamoles'?

And I would go with Ferris and SOB personally, though realistically it would be SOB up against Dusautoir and Ferris up against Harinordoquy.

Almost as ridiculous as the conclusions you came to in the Ferris thread?

Not sure how Parra's club form has been but I'm surprised he's been messed around so much for France in recent months (félicitations Monsieur Lievremont!) and for the first week anyway actually dropped his place to Yachvili. Has the latter been that good? Parra was generally seen as one of the brightest aspects of France's future. Glad to see him back in.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
D'Arcy vs Fofanna - even.
Picamoles vs Heaslip - Heaslip.
Ferris vs Dusautoir - Dusautoir
Healy vs Debaty - Healy
.

I just cannot udnerstand how you even begin to arrive at these conclusions.

Have you seen Fofana's form compared to D'Arcy's?

Ok, what facets of D'arcy's play are better than Fofanas?

What parts of Heaslips curent form is better than Picamoles'?

TBH wasn't all that impressed by Fofana on Saturday, had a good second half when the Italians tired, but in the first half he was lousy. With just one international cap it's hard to make a judgment IMO. Heaslip had a good game on Sunday, carried well, tackled hard and made himself a nuisance at the breakdown. Picamoles is an exciting player, but has only played well for France on about three occasions (last Saturday was one of them, along with an away win in NZ and a home win vs SA). If he can do that consistently then yes I'd have him above Heaslip.

The other two are fairly obvious I'd have thought.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And I would go with Ferris and SOB personally, though realistically it would be SOB up against Dusautoir and Ferris up against Harinordoquy.

For me Dusautoir is arguably the world's best player at the mo, so wouldn't pick SOB ahead of him either. Harinordoquy's club form has been so-so, but it was his improvement which IMO was the catalyst for France's WC campaign getting back on track.

So he actually edited it after he realised he was complimenting an irish player

The reason I choose SOB is because of his potential more so that anything, because I agree with you that Dusautoir is an absolutely phenomenal player. As an irish man however I am very happy with Ferris and SOB as our flankers. Wouldn't mind Picamoles though

I'm half-French BTW, but Debaty struggled quite badly (admittedly against a formidable opponent) in the scrums. While I'm not sure I'd go along with Healy being one of the best LHs in the world, he more than holds his end up usually, and i'd certainly have him ahead of Debaty.

individually both backrows are very strong, but the French has a much better balance IMO.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Almost as ridiculous as the conclusions you came to in the Ferris thread?

There's only one person trying to ruin this thread and it isn't me

I would have Ireland being slightly ahead 1-8 but its very close. 9-15 is all France and by some way.

I honestly feel that D'Arcy is going to get eaten by Fofana, especially as the game progresses.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Almost as ridiculous as the conclusions you came to in the Ferris thread?

There's only one person trying to ruin this thread and it isn't me

I wonder why nobody is taking you seriously then?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
D'Arcy vs Fofanna - even.
Picamoles vs Heaslip - Heaslip.
Ferris vs Dusautoir - Dusautoir
Healy vs Debaty - Healy
.

I just cannot udnerstand how you even begin to arrive at these conclusions.

Have you seen Fofana's form compared to D'Arcy's?

Ok, what facets of D'arcy's play are better than Fofanas?

What parts of Heaslips curent form is better than Picamoles'?

TBH wasn't all that impressed by Fofana on Saturday, had a good second half when the Italians tired, but in the first half he was lousy. With just one international cap it's hard to make a judgment IMO. Heaslip had a good game on Sunday, carried well, tackled hard and made himself a nuisance at the breakdown. Picamoles is an exciting player, but has only played well for France on about three occasions (last Saturday was one of them, along with an away win in NZ and a home win vs SA). If he can do that consistently then yes I'd have him above Heaslip.

The other two are fairly obvious I'd have thought.

Heaslip had a lousy game. Usually he hangs out on the wing looking to score a try from 20 yards out. He was against some big backs on the weekend so this didn't work out for him. He'll be able to do it against teams like Scotland and Italy, he'll score a try despite having poor workrate and the pundits will probably give him MOTM.

Ferris and SOB are cracking players who will give any backrow a game. Although I rate Dusatoir higher than both of them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Heaslip had a lousy game. Usually he hangs out on the wing looking to score a try from 20 yards out. He was against some big backs on the weekend so this didn't work out for him. He'll be able to do it against teams like Scotland and Italy, he'll score a try despite having poor workrate and the pundits will probably give him MOTM.

Ferris and SOB are cracking players who will give any backrow a game. Although I rate Dusatoir higher than both of them.

Well that post just cracked it,I'm putting you on ignore as I resent the effort it takes to read your thoughts.

Hmmmm. Not that I'm botherd but it seems liek there's a head in the sand attitude here.

Do you ignore everybody that doesn't agree with you?

I'm not sure what you get out of a chat forum if so.

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sorry rodders but on what basis should we believe. I will be delighted if they win but as I said before I think it will take 4 wins and a semblance of a game plan evolving before I believe any hype

Stand if I told you in November that Ulster would have steam rollered Leicester and pushed Clermont to the limit en route to reaching the HEC QF? I wouldn't, but I still went to Ravenhill or turned on the TV with a sense of belief and expectation.

I didn't think Munster would qualify either but they ended up unbeaten.

To the brave nothing is impossible. These are good players, no exceptional players .... things are not perfect but theres no reason to lose hope or lower the expectations.

We CAN win our remaining games and then we can worry about the future but there is no reason not to believe we can beat France on Saturday.

Rodders I will watch and hope but I won't get enthusiastic about Ireland unless what I said happens. Rugby is great in that you can always raise your game but I genuinely don't believe we will win. I have no faith in what is happening at a coaching level which I find difficult because I do like kidney. Heres hoping they pull a performance out of the bag