6 and 8 for England

I rate Tom Croft as a player and know he contributes a lot in the line out and around the pitch. He is a good ball carrier in the wide channels or in space and uses his pace to make excellent cover tackles that other 6s could not hope to pull off. He cannot give you go forward ball around the fringes and is not so strong at cleaning out the tackle area. Sometimes I feel that he is a bit of a luxury. I prefer a Jerry Collins, Kaino, Ferris or O'Brian type of 6 that can smash over the gain line from the fringes of the ruck and can use their power to smash opponents out of the tackle area.

As we do not have that kind of 6 and need Croft's experience, I don't think we can afford to play Dowson at 8. In my opinion Dowson is the wrong player to complement Croft and Robshaw. England need a back row player that can give us some go forward even off slow ball. I think Morgan is more likely to get us that go forward ball than Dowson. I am concerned about whether Morgan has the fitness to go 80 minutes but still think he is a better option. What do you think?

I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Bang on.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

I agree with you. If I was the selector I would be picking your back row. But I don't think they will drop Croft because he has some experience. I'm worried that when Wood comes back that they might play Robshaw at 8, with Croft and Wood. I saw Robshaw at 8 for Quins and he did ok but I don't think he is an international 8. We need someone in the backrow who is a powerful ball carrier and Morgan is the only man for the job.

Robshaw and Croft worked rather well in tangent on the flanks the problem lay in the fact that Dowson could not take on the ball carrying requirements needed. Robshaw plays with Easter and Ha... (er... can't spell it - the big PI flanker) who take on a lot of the carrying work and Croft's best form has come when paired with Crane (a proper old school carry through a brick wall 8). Morgan needs to come in to add the right amount of balance to the side and do some of the carrying.

On a side not Botha needs to get more involved, he's the meaty lock he could do with getting a few one metre carries (1m is ample just to keep you moving forward and clean up the ball) around the tight. At the minute he stands back a bit when his muscle would be better used closer in.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Bang on.

Is this the same Morgan who before he had decided on Wales or England people were saying he's no good anyway??????

England_Fan1979 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

I agree with you. If I was the selector I would be picking your back row. But I don't think they will drop Croft because he has some experience. I'm worried that when Wood comes back that they might play Robshaw at 8, with Croft and Wood. I saw Robshaw at 8 for Quins and he did ok but I don't think he is an international 8. We need someone in the backrow who is a powerful ball carrier and Morgan is the only man for the job.

Ugh don't like that option one bit. Croft Wood Robshaw looks horribly unbalanced to me.

Croft does seem a bit of a luxury but I'd stick with him against Italy. Put Morgan in, let Dowson or Clark cover positions on the bench. When Wood is back, use Croft as an impact sub against tiring defences

very unbalanced. Too lightweight too. I don't think you can get away with playing Wood and Croft.

I'd go: 6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Morgan

with 19. Croft. He'll be a great bench option, and stun defences with his pace.

If Robshaw is not a 7 (true though it's nice to have him capable of playing there) then he is in no way a starting 8. He could cover in times of need but he cannot start 8

formerly known as Sam wrote:Robshaw and Croft worked rather well in tangent on the flanks the problem lay in the fact that Dowson could not take on the ball carrying requirements needed. Robshaw plays with Easter and Ha... (er... can't spell it - the big PI flanker) who take on a lot of the carrying work and Croft's best form has come when paired with Crane (a proper old school carry through a brick wall 8). Morgan needs to come in to add the right amount of balance to the side and do some of the carrying.

On a side not Botha needs to get more involved, he's the meaty lock he could do with getting a few one metre carries (1m is ample just to keep you moving forward and clean up the ball) around the tight. At the minute he stands back a bit when his muscle would be better used closer in.

Completely agree. I think Morgan would be a good addition to fill that Crane/Waldrom sort of role. I wouldn't worry too much about his fitness, he played very well in the HEC game v Saints and was going all the way to the end. It's something I think Scarlets have worked with him on, I think he was around the 20 stone mark before?

Yeh he was very out of shape before. There was a good article on him in Rugby World, and he used to work on a building site, and had a seriously poor diet- ballooned up to over 20st. He's done very well considering, and I don't think he looked out of shape at all

Chjw131 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Robshaw and Croft worked rather well in tangent on the flanks the problem lay in the fact that Dowson could not take on the ball carrying requirements needed. Robshaw plays with Easter and Ha... (er... can't spell it - the big PI flanker) who take on a lot of the carrying work and Croft's best form has come when paired with Crane (a proper old school carry through a brick wall 8). Morgan needs to come in to add the right amount of balance to the side and do some of the carrying.

On a side not Botha needs to get more involved, he's the meaty lock he could do with getting a few one metre carries (1m is ample just to keep you moving forward and clean up the ball) around the tight. At the minute he stands back a bit when his muscle would be better used closer in.

Completely agree. I think Morgan would be a good addition to fill that Crane/Waldrom sort of role. I wouldn't worry too much about his fitness, he played very well in the HEC game v Saints and was going all the way to the end. It's something I think Scarlets have worked with him on, I think he was around the 20 stone mark before?

Plus we can always sub him off in the last 10

Morgan is 6'3 Dowson is 6'3

Dowson is 109kg

whereas Morgan comes in at 116kg, on younger, faster, more explosive legs

Dowson covers 6,7,8

whereas Morgan is a specialist 8.

8 is a specialist position.

I'd play Morgan but would seriously consider Dowson at 6 and Croft benched to come on when the game (hopefully) breaks apart.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Bang on.

Agree with the both of you.

And i agree with all 3 of you!

But Wood is NOT back for Italy.

SO...

Dowson
Robshaw
Morgan

Croft benched.

Yes??

Yup, that's it. I think there's a very similar article going on, and I posted that there, but most have thought I put it here too! That is definitely the backrow I'd go for

Triangulation wrote:And i agree with all 3 of you!

But Wood is NOT back for Italy.

SO...

Dowson
Robshaw
Morgan

Croft benched.

Yes??

I'm finding it hard to call between Dowson and Croft because on watching the match again, both actually did a fair bit of work in not very conspicuous areas. Croft is a good impact sub, Dowson good to provide fresh cover for whomever needs it. Plus Italy aren't monsters at the breakdown (better at powering people off the ball than "stealing" it) so maybe Croft's pace around the park will come in more useful than Dowson's floor work?

Excellent just spotted it on othe thread too!

I know we potentially weaken the lineout but needs must.

We need fast ball and we need ball carrying forwards.

These 3 offer 3 ball carriers and importantly enough ruck clearing smash to allow Youngs some time on the ball and hopefully not too much in front of him around the fringes...

Agree Triangulation,Bluestonevedder and Mad for Chelsea.

Chequered Jersey I personally think Croft would be much better against tired Italian legs.

No bring Croft on when the game opens up.

We need to assert ourselves with some quick ruck ball finding its way to our strike runners. That means we need ruck smashers. Croft just does not fit the bill.

beshocked has it

Maybe you're right but I can't see Lancaster doing that, personally...

bedfordwelsh wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Bang on.

Is this the same Morgan who before he had decided on Wales or England people were saying he's no good anyway??????

They may have been, though I did see a lot more people saying that after he'd announced who he was playing for...

In fairness you may be right as I haven't seen much of him at club level, but he reportedly did extremely well against Northampton in Round 5 and Lancaster has said he's really pushing for a starting spot.

After the game and looking back at the game a back row of Dowson/Robshaw/Morgan, would maybe better for the Italy game.

Croft on the bench.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd certainly start Morgan above Dowson given what I saw last week-end. Ideally when Wood is back I'd go with Robshaw Wood and Morgan with Croft on the bench.

Bang on.

Is this the same Morgan who before he had decided on Wales or England people were saying he's no good anyway??????

I laughed at the comment questioning Morgan's fitness when they have had the only international player who looked like an amateur as a number eight for the past five years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Robshaw and Croft worked rather well in tangent on the flanks the problem lay in the fact that Dowson could not take on the ball carrying requirements needed.

I don't think he was selected for that purpose though. I said on a couple of threads last month that I thought he would start against Scotland because the breakdown would be the key aspect of that game, and with Wood injured we would need more of that from our 8 than carrying; whereas carrying would be the aspect targeted against Italy and Morgan would start at 8 for that game.