Where is the next BOD going to come from?

The last time we won in Paris, BOD was just 20 and about to set the rugby world alight. He blew through Irish rugby like a breath of fresh air blowing away the memories of the 90's.

Wales have 19 year old George North ripping up trees for them. England have Tuilagi capped as a 19 year old and showing great potential.

In our current system in Ireland do we have the potential to fast-track a young player showing immense talent through the ranks the way other nations are?

Would George North be getting game time for Ireland or would he still be considered too young and have to prove himself at provincial level for a bit longer?

Is there any potential BOD's out there at the minute?

Interested to hear your views!

Luke McGrath

There you go.

Sorry, that probably read a bit sarcastic. I don’t think Ireland are going to have another player who’s a regular international starter at 18/19. It just doesn’t seem to happen with us. McGrath is a very good prospect but he’s already 19. He won’t be ready for the Leinster senior team for another season or two so there’s just no way he’ll burst onto the scene like a Tuilagi or North.

Hanrahan?

No sarcasm taken!

Though that is kind of my point Mickado;

why does it not happen with Ireland?
why do we not have young guys bursting onto the scene like BOD did?

I think O’Driscoll had an Ireland cap before he played for Leinster. There’s just no way that would happen anymore, I suppose the structure that we have in place of school->academy->provincial league player->provincial HC player->international has served us well in the last number of years. Maybe the prodigious talent isn’t there in the same way as you see in other countries, we don’t have a North or a James O’Connor who would be ready for international rugby so young, but we do have a good structure for developing players who can be as good as them.

rapidsnowman wrote:No sarcasm taken!

Though that is kind of my point Mickado;

why does it not happen with Ireland?
why do we not have young guys bursting onto the scene like BOD did?

Rugby is not a grass roots sport as it is elsewhere. Its the 3rd/4th most popular sport played in Ireland and Ireland have a small population.

If you look at the more popular sports, a special talent emerges every 4/5 years (DJ Carey, Henry Sheflin, Lar Corbett, Joe Canning to mention a few in hurling). And when you think that Mick Galwey took up rugby because he was told he wasn't good enough to play inter-county football for Kerry, you begin to realise how good some of those guys could have been that did make it).

Because youth isn't trusted in our system....not before it............................proves itself. How you prove yourself whilst not being on the field is a pretty difficult feat, even for a closet superstar.

There's plenty of youth, I'll get told. Look at Murray and .... and McFadden... and Cronin....and a few others.

So keep them coming and we might hit paydirt. There's Zebo and Dave Kearney for starters that might give one or two of the familiar names a rest on Saturday... if we had the courage to chance one or both

Let's call it Search for a Star. Anyway, first rule of a star is that he tends to disobey orders. So we're not really hoping for a star as much as we are a renegade. O'Driscoll was a renegade, an individual soul tied into a team game. I think we have one in waiting actually but I'll keep mum lest I put a hex on him.

Andrew Conway Fly?

Surely its youth is protected (and not youth is not trusted). Andrew Conway is very talented, but George North (who is a bit of a genetic freak - I mean that in a good way) would kill him. Our youth would lose the physical battle.

What also might have been a factor (it was mentioned elsewhere here recently), but that French team was very poor in 2000.

The quality of the French team in 2000 may have been a factor in Ireland winning that game; but it wasn't a factor in BOD being selected so young or going on to prove he was the real deal. In fact he had already played on the summer tour before that 6 nations.

Don't get me wrong, it is not that I think we should be unearthing BOD's on a regular basis, he is a once in a generation player, but it seems the vast majority of our players get their first cap around 23 years old. Maybe that is the ideal age for physical maturity - I don't know. We, unlike most other nations, never seem to have a young bolter.

Well one things for sure, no matter how talented a youngfella is, if he’s not physically developed then he can’t be thrown in at the deepend. North and Tulilagi have the physicality to play at international level, and it’s just a happy coincidence (for them) that they have the skill too.

If Ireland produce a talent like either of these lads then I’m sure we’re able to let them step up, at the moment we just don’t have anyone who would be suitable. Luke Marshall and Eoin O’Malley would have been massacred last week for example, but there’s no reason that they won’t become internationals one day.

There's lots of young talented players there and until you throw them in the deep end you never know how good they can be.

Sometimes I think we hold guys back too long to 'protect' them and then coach all the natural instinct out of them. We are far to obsessed about what players can't do rather than what they can do and more importantly can potentially do.

Compare the stick Sexton gets when he doesn't nail his place kicks compared to Priestland who couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

We're obsessed with jack of all trade utility backs and forwards and far too concerned with not losing rather than actually trying to win. Young guys make mistakes but they also are fearless and don't have the baggage that older players have. Throw them in and if they screw up, so what the good ones will learn and the weak will fall away. Thats how evolution works.

Mickado wrote:Well one things for sure, no matter how talented a youngfella is, if he’s not physically developed then he can’t be thrown in at the deepend. North and Tulilagi have the physicality to play at international level, and it’s just a happy coincidence (for them) that they have the skill too.

If Ireland produce a talent like either of these lads then I’m sure we’re able to let them step up, at the moment we just don’t have anyone who would be suitable. Luke Marshall and Eoin O’Malley would have been massacred last week for example, but there’s no reason that they won’t become internationals one day.

Massacred by what? Do Welsh players somehow grow in height and strength when they play at International?

I can understand the idea that France can select quality from 7 or 8 top clubs and that they can create basically a team in any shape they want - whether it be a small fast side or a big combative side - they have the resources to choose what to put on the field for France and so they can make a side like Ireland suffer that can only pick from 4 provinces, and even then only players that are Irish qulaified from those sides.

Good - case proven - we'll always have to fight hard against France and even England needs a good game to get them.

Wales? Players that play in only 4 regions, players that Madigan and O'Malley (just using them as examples) play against regularly and beat regularly enough?
North is up to meeting Irish Internationals but Madigan or O'Malley isn't up to meeting North and his kin when they are wearing Red for Wales?

What would have massacred the pups last Sunday, and truly did massacre even their mature collegues, is the gameplan adopted by Wales. Rugby in perpetual motion. It's the game they play, not their physical strength that is giving them the edge over Irish players who can hold their own with these same players at Provincial level.

Our system, such as it is, favours safety over risk and invention. We need our strongest (best) players because our game is based on defence and stealing little moments to attack before falling back to defence again. Choose an all out attack game and our young rookies can very well match their Welsh cousins. Every player has a weakness...even the new god, North. It's their strengths you pick them for. Our game is a cautious one, and cautious gameplans don't trust youthful impetuosity.. it's that trait that unlocks the hidden gems.

Last point, when O'Driscoll started out, the shirt he was wearing smothered him. He was a child. He even laughs about it to this day.

Fly, don't think there was such agressive defence back in 2000. Has Brian O'Driscoll scored a hatrick since at international level against a Top 10 country?

It is a bit freakish that Wales does have so many monster backs at the same time. Gatland said last week that the Welsh backs had an average of 9 KG over their Irish counterparts.

Another thing - Keith Earls was playing a lot of top level rugby from about 20 and he did pick up a fair few niggly injuries. He said that it was sorted now, but the reason he was given for getting so many injuries was that his body had not finished growing and the workload he was putting on it was too much.

When you hear that maybe some of these players will have a longer career now. Don't forget Pollock, Ian Dowling & Barry Murphy had shortened careers through injury.

Sin é wrote:Fly, don't think there was such agressive defence back in 2000. Has Brian O'Driscoll scored a hatrick since at international level against a Top 10 country?

He was a boy in a man's world, Sin é...even back then. Don't make him out to be so old - it wasn't B&W. And even if it was, we all talk about when rugby was really for men, when things happened in rucks that the ref never saw, when scores were settled on the day, in the game, when the HD cameras weren't looking.

Don't tell me he was physically prepared to play in a man's game in 2000. He wasn't - he just didn't care and played to his strengths. Meanwhile Zebo and Dave Kearney and players like them have to be protected from those very bad men in Paris this week, whilst an underperforming D'arcy and an underperforming Bowe get picked again to do the man's work.

O'Driscoll got a hat trick against Scotland in 2002.

Very interesting Thread! And truthfully, I feel that too often people complain about 'steady eddie' and 'steady kidney', but in contrast talk about gradual change being necessary.

I honestly think we don't show any faith in our youngsters, and most of our players have gone through periods of feeling the pressure to desperatly try and prove themselves after extensive periods of seemingly not being noticed by the Irish setup.

To be honest, I don't think throwing a Zebo or a Kearney Jr in would be the worst thing in the world. And in fact, might something like that do wonders for their confidence?

Is the sucess of North and Tuilagi perhaps coming as a response to the faith that people showed in them?

Whats worst is, we could lose to france, and still wouldnt see any shocking matchday line ups for the remaining pointless games of the tournament!

Mickado wrote:O'Driscoll got a hat trick against Scotland in 2002.

Who was his centre partner - Mags or Hendo

Maggs

Who was it who showed faith in BOD, Horgan, POC, ROG, Stringer etc...............?????....

roddersm wrote:Who was it who showed faith in BOD, Horgan, POC, ROG, Stringer etc...............?????....

Not before Kidney coached a Munster team (that had ROG, Stringer, Horan, Hayes, Sheahan, Wallace, Foley, Quinlan) which beat an Ireland XV coached by Gatland on their way to the world cup in 1999. Many of them made their Ireland debut the following year when they had obviously been proven to be as good as what was there already.

Where is the next BOD going to come from?

Carmarthenshire.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Who was it who showed faith in BOD, Horgan, POC, ROG, Stringer etc...............?????....

Not before Kidney coached a Munster team (that had ROG, Stringer, Horan, Hayes, Sheahan, Wallace, Foley, Quinlan) which beat an Ireland XV coached by Gatland on their way to the world cup in 1999. Many of them made their Ireland debut the following year when they had obviously been proven to be as good as what was there already.

Exactly Sin, spot on sir

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Who was it who showed faith in BOD, Horgan, POC, ROG, Stringer etc...............?????....

Not before Kidney coached a Munster team (that had ROG, Stringer, Horan, Hayes, Sheahan, Wallace, Foley, Quinlan) which beat an Ireland XV coached by Gatland on their way to the world cup in 1999. Many of them made their Ireland debut the following year when they had obviously been proven to be as good as what was there already.

Exactly Sin, spot on sir

Not a difficult decision to go with youth against Scotland when England put 50 on Ireland the previous week and a few people asking why lads like Wallace, ROG were being ignored after beating an ireland team well a few months previous.

You were probably only a wee lad, so you wouldn't have remembered the fallout of that. The Ulstermen didn't even object to Humphs getting dropped to the bench they were in such pain

Aren't you younger than Rodders, sin?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Aren't you younger than Rodders, sin?

Rory, I'm old enough to have seen you live a few times

Flip, got that wrong! Must have mixed you up with someone, I thought you were in your early 20s!

Sin é wrote:
Another thing - Keith Earls was playing a lot of top level rugby from about 20 and he did pick up a fair few niggly injuries. He said that it was sorted now, but the reason he was given for getting so many injuries was that his body had not finished growing and the workload he was putting on it was too much.

When you hear that maybe some of these players will have a longer career now. Don't forget Pollock, Ian Dowling & Barry Murphy had shortened careers through injury.

This is a very good point,I think North has had major surgery on his shoulder already so if a guy his size can get hurt then you can see why the smaller guys aren't thrown in.

I think this whole thing about us not trusting youth is a bit of a myth. Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Keith Earls, Connor Murray, Cian Healy were all 20/21 when they got their first full caps.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Aren't you younger than Rodders, sin?

Rory, I'm old enough to have seen you live a few times

...jeebus Rory not everyone is younger than me sir!

The Welsh team doesn't just have North - they show faith in youngsters across the board. What age is Warburton? Ha'penny? Faletau? Tipuric?

As long as we Irish hero-worship our old, grizzled campaigners, we will never have a team with the verve of that Welsh team. Case in point - this is a thread asking about new, exciting talent, and a thirty-something old hand (albeit obviously an extraordinary one) is namechecked n the title. Not a criticism, more a reflection on our mentality.

We need to stop referencing the past so constantly. And I wonder sometimes if we are pathological game-managers. Just play the game.

There is no next BOD. We'll just have to alter our team to handle his loss. The responsibilty will have to be shared around. At the back and in the backrow. He doesn't just play a World Class game, he organises us all through the game. That was glaringly obvious and missing, last Sunday. Darcy is lost without him too.

Im sticking by McFadden & O Malley to take over from both of them.

The thing is if you look at Wales, yes we have unearthed George North who does appear (at the moment) to be the real deal. At the same time we have capped and then discarded players whilst they were still young, like Biggar, Thom James, Gavin Evans, Aled Brew, Rhys Webb, etc. Maybe if teh Welsh setup allowed players to grow in stature for their regions and then select them when they are proving consitant at HC level there would be less 'wonder kids' turning out to be decent players but nothing spectacular, So maybe the IRFU have got the idea right, and they want to know that a player can be trusted to perform before throwing them into the deep end to either sink or swim.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The thing is if you look at Wales, yes we have unearthed George North who does appear (at the moment) to be the real deal. At the same time we have capped and then discarded players whilst they were still young, like Biggar, Thom James, Gavin Evans, Aled Brew, Rhys Webb, etc. Maybe if teh Welsh setup allowed players to grow in stature for their regions and then select them when they are proving consitant at HC level there would be less 'wonder kids' turning out to be decent players but nothing spectacular, So maybe the IRFU have got the idea right, and they want to know that a player can be trusted to perform before throwing them into the deep end to either sink or swim.

Good point but also a bad point. No, seriously, not so much a bad point as one that can have a counter-argument. Wales, we'll say, get feverishly excited about youthful players and more readily drop them into the International side (I know people will say it ain't so clearcut as that when you look at the details but that's the overview that people generally tend to believe.)

Now, when Wales drop in the in-form youngsters, you could say that they prove they don't have the staying power for International (the swimmers and the sinkers) but on the other hand, if they perform for a season or even for a series of games... what's the difference?

A performance then is a performances, and you reap the benefits of it for that period...then on to the next sink or swimmer, to see how he gets on. If you keep the swimmers and offload the sinkers, you've got the potential for a decent international side quicker than the Irish version produces them. Ireland is more stable as an International unit - we tend to hover around the same area in the rankings. Stable but often performing below the standards that exist in domestic league. Wales are more erratic. They go up and down the graph more rapidly than we do... But when they hit a rich vein of form it tends to push them higher than Mr Stability neighbour Ireland.

I'd say Ireland have a good system for sustaining good players and yes, rooting out flash-in-the-pan types...but where they are failing is in the gameplan they give to the players that make it into International - a good gameplan added to our good stability platform and we'd be getting far better results with it, in my opinion.

The next BOD has unfortunately come from Anglesey via Kings Lynn!

Don Alfonso wrote:The Welsh team doesn't just have North - they show faith in youngsters across the board. What age is Warburton? Ha'penny? Faletau? Tipuric?

As long as we Irish hero-worship our old, grizzled campaigners, we will never have a team with the verve of that Welsh team. Case in point - this is a thread asking about new, exciting talent, and a thirty-something old hand (albeit obviously an extraordinary one) is namechecked n the title. Not a criticism, more a reflection on our mentality.

We need to stop referencing the past so constantly. And I wonder sometimes if we are pathological game-managers. Just play the game.

Warburton, Faletau and Tipuric where 20 when they got their caps. Pretty much the same age as the Irish players I listed above. I really don't buy into this theory at all.

And who are you suggest we throw in instead of grizzled front liners? We aren't going to change our front row. Ok donnacha ryan should probably be ahead of DOC, but he is what 27? Our backrow isn't old. Murray just broke into the team. We only have two realistic outhavles. I would agree with some experimentation at the centres but their ain't too many candidates banging on the door.

My point is that the Welsh are prepared to have all this guys playing at once. We'll have a youngster or two - they'll have four or five.

And to be honest, I'd take pretty much anyone over Darcy. I want the best players, not the most experienced.

I want the best players, not the most experienced.

Best, irrespective of age. Use the Wolfhounds to develop them.

Don Alfonso wrote:My point is that the Welsh are prepared to have all this guys playing at once. We'll have a youngster or two - they'll have four or five.

And to be honest, I'd take pretty much anyone over Darcy. I want the best players, not the most experienced.

Ya i agree. We should be playing the best with respect to age, but that's what i think we are doing. I agree with replacing d'arcy. But for the rest of the positions in the team, i think, our best players are there.

And again those four or five young welsh lads in their team are probably the best players for those positions. They have brought in more young lads because 12 - 18 months ago they probably had a greater need to do that. But as you said we def should be doing something about our centres.

"Where is the next BOD going to come from?"

His mammy

End of. Fact.

Good, straighforward post.

It deserves a good, straightforward answer.

The next BOD may well be called Mark Bennett. He comes from my home club of Ayr, so I saw him play quite a bit. Ask any Scottish posters and they'll tell you that he is a prodigy (playing for the under 20's when he'd barely turned 17 )and is potentially the best Scot in two or three generations.

He was snapped up by current Top 14 champions Clermont in July before Glasgow could get its chequebook out (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8510132/Scotland-teenager-Mark-Bennett-rejects-Glasgow-overtures-to-sign-for-Clermont-Auvergne.html) and was doing well before he completely ripped his anterior cruciate in August, meaning that he has been sidelined for the past five months.

Not to worry - he's just turned 19 and like Hogg has plenty of time.

There will never be another BOD, but its definitely Munster's turn to give us some exciting backs.

Also, hello everyone.

Munster will be presenting the world with Hanrahan eventually.

And welcome to the forum

Where's the next BOD going to come from

Mrs Huberman

Thomond wrote:

Where's the next BOD going to come from

Mrs Huberman

Excellent T.

Preserved Killick wrote:There will never be another BOD, but its definitely Munster's turn to give us some exciting backs.

Also, hello everyone.

De Killick is back!

Thats de average IQ of this site upgraded. Right there. Wouldnt take much, but.

It took a post of such eloquence and deep insight to bring Killick back!

I'm very proud!

Preserved Killick wrote:There will never be another BOD, but its definitely Munster's turn to give us some exciting backs.

Also, hello everyone.

Morning Killick, I remember you from old 606, I remember some interesting debates with you, just can't remember if they were good or bad.

Killick - we were all very much just killing time until you showed up.