Edit; Hand of Gethin?

Apologies if this has been done to death on the match thread, but im not going through 700 odd posts to find out, so........

Its right at the end of the 1st half, its 3-3, Scotland are going through the phases and finally making yards through the powerful Welsh defense. They are right on the line, seemingly about to be rewarded for their efforts, and taking a huge momentum swinging lead into half time, with all the confidence building and moral boosting effects this will give them. Chunk goes for the pick up and knocks it on....but not without a lot of help from Gethin Jenkins, who, while lying on his belly, reaches out and knocks the ball from his hands. Blantant penalty, in red zone definate yellow and yet it is totally missed (by ref, commentators and pundits) and nothing is given.

Wales clear their lines, reach half time all square, and the momentum, confidence and boost to moral is suddenly theirs.......

Forget about the 'knock on that never was' affecting the game, (*this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match* note backtracking retraction below). They are an excellent side, I like them a lot, but they are certainly getting the rub of the green with the key decisions so far this 6 nations.

Rest of the world missed it

It was clear - I saw it and Jiffy commented on it

Missed it at the time, but was quite clear on the replay - ho hum

I saw it but it wasn't 100% clear to me whether Jenkins was on the floor or whether he was on his feet. Either way, it was clever play as it wasn't spotted. If Poite had seen it and he was off his feet then it would have been a penalty and a yellow, but that's where Jenkins earns his corn as the "extra flanker", I thought he had a great game in the loose today. Looked like he'd never been away.

Aye, dems de breaks, I'm sure the Welsh lads could find similar. Let's get real - one of the things that is different about the Scots posters on v2 is that for the most part we v v rarely whinge about the referee (even in the face of Barnes/Argetnina) Can we keep it that way?

Oh asbo - please

I personally think Gethin was unlucky not to be MotM today. He was phenomenal at the breakdown and in the loose.

If he does it in a ruck and gets away with it, it's good play. That's most of the point of the breakdown

ChequeredJersey wrote:If he does it in a ruck and gets away with it, it's good play. That's most of the point of the breakdown

No - its cheating

TJ wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If he does it in a ruck and gets away with it, it's good play. That's most of the point of the breakdown

No - its cheating

It's rugby. We have a position specifically for "bending the rules" and getting away with it. 2 actually. They are called flankers

Looseheaded wrote:I personally think Gethin was unlucky not to be MotM today. He was phenomenal at the breakdown and in the loose.

He did have a few 'i'm Sam Warburton but I can scrummage' moments.

For it to have been illegal he must have had at least one knee on the ground (knees on other players are fine) and the camera angle does not show if this is the case or not so I think it is a little early to claim that this is a part of the international pro-wales referee conspiracy that single-handed won wales the game.

irfon17 wrote:For it to have been illegal he must have had at least one knee on the ground (knees on other players are fine) and the camera angle does not show if this is the case or not so I think it is a little early to claim that this is a part of the international pro-wales referee conspiracy that single-handed won wales the game.

I never noticed this during the game just went back and looked at it on iPlayer and I think the camera angle is fine. There is no way he is supporting his own weight. So it's a clear penalty and yellow card for me.

Yeah certainly robbed Scotland of a win yawn.

Woodstock wrote:Yeah certainly robbed Scotland of a win yawn.

I never said it did.. Just providing my point of view on the poster who said he could have been on his feet. Why are you even in this thread, which is discussing this issue. It's certainly not to add insightful remarks. Go be a sore winner on the other match thread.

Well I suggest you use a title appropriate for the thread to begin with, hardy insightful of the dross you actually posted.

Fair enough woodstock, title changed.

However brush the chip off the old shoulder there, Im not Scottish, Im not saying that's why the match was won or lost, but rather that with this bit of skullduggery by Jenkins, along with the 'tip tackle' issues and the Falatua yellow not given (for doing exactly what Lamont did to get his yesterday) last week, Wales are getting the benefit of quite a few reffing decisions so far, and that on this occasion Scotland were rather unlucky as a result.

Like I said, I like Wales, the Scottish fans have been truely sporting in defeat and as a neutral I dont want to be a WUM, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

logie28 wrote:Fair enough woodstock, title changed.

However brush the chip off the old shoulder there, Im not Scottish, Im not saying that's why the match was won or lost, but rather that with this bit of skullduggery by Jenkins, along with the 'tip tackle' issues and the Falatua yellow not given (for doing exactly what Lamont did to get his yesterday) last week, Wales are getting the benefit of quite a few reffing decisions so far, and that on this occasion Scotland were rather unlucky as a result.

Like I said, I like Wales, the Scottish fans have been truely sporting in defeat and as a neutral I dont want to be a WUM, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

To be fair the ref was poor for both sides, there were a lot of instances where Scotland were holding onto the ball when we were competing and the penalty was not given.

I never actually saw the incident but i will look again tonight on slow mo. If it is the case that Gethin got his hand in to disrupt then fair play to him for getting away with it

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

+ 1

I dont think any single moment cost Scotland the game and I'm sure that most of us who watched the game on TV spent most of the game shouting at Poite. Scottish, Welsh amd neutrals alike, and while I thought he was terrible I wouldnt want his job for the world!

SubsBench wrote:

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

+ 1

I dont think any single moment cost Scotland the game and I'm sure that most of us who watched the game on TV spent most of the game shouting at Poite. Scottish, Welsh amd neutrals alike, and while I thought he was terrible I wouldnt want his job for the world!

Subs, absolutely. The simple truth is that 50/50 decisions do from time to time go with the team in possession or the team dominating or the team that is deemed to be 'better', that's just a fact of life - the answer for Scotland is simply to get better and then perhaps occasionally some of these wee breaks will come our way

I saw it, and was screaming at the television! But, fair play to Gethin, he got away with it, and therefore is heralded as a hero! Good play.

Further adding to the rumours that he is just a flanker trapped inside a prop's body.

Registered just to post this: it was a deliberate hand in the ruck while Jenkins was off his feet. You can see him clearly supporting his weight with his hands on the floor and he reaches his right hand out and swipes the ball. Poor that it wasn't caught by the ref, especially in such a threatening position...

Although the Scots are definitely their own worst enemy in the red zone, sometimes it's a cynical foul which forces the error (re: deliberate knock on by Ben Foden after Ross Rennie broke the gain line another example).

KingofGlasgow wrote: (re: deliberate knock on by Ben Foden after Ross Rennie broke the gain line another example).

There is no way that Ben Foden's tackle on Rennie was cynical. It was a result of a well-time tackle and poor passing from Rennie, and is no where near the same realm as Jenkins' handling of the ball. No comparison at all! Yes, had Gethin's actions been seen (and I can't understand how they weren't) it should have been a yellow, and possibly a penalty try!

Yeah I have to agree. Even at the time I didn't think Fodens was deliberate.

I agree that it's not the same realm, but as a hard done by Scotsman, I can't possibly agree that Rennie messing up wasn't because of Scottish ineptness but rather cynical English play

Nah, seriously, I've re-watched the Foden tackle and I can't make my mind up whether it's a good tackle or not.

In any event, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that not all Scottish errors are their own fault, even though the vast majority are.

Was very pleased to see attacking intent in the game though, but again, 15 minutes of madness and it all unravels. Do Scotland have an outstanding agreement to go down to 13 men when they visit Cardiff?

I understand KingOG, there's a innate reaction in all of us when home nations play against each other!

Foden's actual tackle wasn't the greatest, but it was his timing and decision-making that was the key.

Absolutely agree regarding not all of Scotland's errors are their own fault, often they don't capitalise because of good opposition defence (wales game!) or silly, basic, handling-errors. They will come good soon, and I think they're on the verge of something.

Oops, guilty as charged! I retract initial comment of 'this is awful decision that won Wales the match', silly boy!

But it did have a huge influence on the game, and combined with other aforementioned incidents felt it was worth highlighting that wales have had the benefit of the refs decisions so far, as well as the benefit of excellent players.

SubsBench wrote:

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

+ 1

I dont think any single moment cost Scotland the game and I'm sure that most of us who watched the game on TV spent most of the game shouting at Poite. Scottish, Welsh amd neutrals alike, and while I thought he was terrible I wouldnt want his job for the world!

Subsbench, I would have to disagree that no single moment cost Scotland the match, when we missed the restart, it knocked the teams confidence massively and seemed to give Wales a boost. In my opinion that is where the game turned and thats what cost us the match.

Oh and I saw the hand knocking the ball out of chunks mit, but only on the replays. The ref wasn't brilliant, but I don't think much blame can be put on him for that, as it would be pretty tough to call. Plus as much as it saddens me to say, I think 99 times out of 100 Scotland would have knocked on in that position...its what we do.

gmclachl wrote:

irfon17 wrote:For it to have been illegal he must have had at least one knee on the ground (knees on other players are fine) and the camera angle does not show if this is the case or not so I think it is a little early to claim that this is a part of the international pro-wales referee conspiracy that single-handed won wales the game.

I never noticed this during the game just went back and looked at it on iPlayer and I think the camera angle is fine. There is no way he is supporting his own weight. So it's a clear penalty and yellow card for me.

He doesn't have to be supporting his own weight- that is not the criteria in the laws, the criteria for being on the floor is having one knee down, if Jenkins is clever enough to support his weight (and more importantly- his knees) with the bodies of people already on the floor then it is completely legal. I say if as it is unclear if he is doing this or if he does indeed have at least one knee on the ground.

irfon17 wrote:

gmclachl wrote:

irfon17 wrote:For it to have been illegal he must have had at least one knee on the ground (knees on other players are fine) and the camera angle does not show if this is the case or not so I think it is a little early to claim that this is a part of the international pro-wales referee conspiracy that single-handed won wales the game.

I never noticed this during the game just went back and looked at it on iPlayer and I think the camera angle is fine. There is no way he is supporting his own weight. So it's a clear penalty and yellow card for me.

He doesn't have to be supporting his own weight- that is not the criteria in the laws, the criteria for being on the floor is having one knee down, if Jenkins is clever enough to support his weight (and more importantly- his knees) with the bodies of people already on the floor then it is completely legal. I say if as it is unclear if he is doing this or if he does indeed have at least one knee on the ground.

Unfortunatly his knees were on the floor as his stomach was on the scottish player on the floor, not his knees, so he was not supporting his own weight and his shoulders were below his hips when he knocked the ball out of the players hands. and it does not matter if his knees are on the floor or not, as soon as you put a hand on the floor you are classed as off your feet

Jesus Christ, get over it. You weren't good enough, you must be used to it by now.

I always try to support Scotland when they aren't playing Wales but the amount of moaning and whinging is really putting me off.

You got your try and ended your ridiculous dry streak, better luck next year.

KingofGlasgow wrote:Do Scotland have an outstanding agreement to go down to 13 men when they visit Cardiff?

I'm pretty certain Wales went down to 13 men last year at Murrayfield too, discipline goes out the window in this fixture.

EWT Spoons wrote:

SubsBench wrote:

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

+ 1

I dont think any single moment cost Scotland the game and I'm sure that most of us who watched the game on TV spent most of the game shouting at Poite. Scottish, Welsh amd neutrals alike, and while I thought he was terrible I wouldnt want his job for the world!

Subsbench, I would have to disagree that no single moment cost Scotland the match, when we missed the restart, it knocked the teams confidence massively and seemed to give Wales a boost. In my opinion that is where the game turned and thats what cost us the match.

Oh and I saw the hand knocking the ball out of chunks mit, but only on the replays. The ref wasn't brilliant, but I don't think much blame can be put on him for that, as it would be pretty tough to call. Plus as much as it saddens me to say, I think 99 times out of 100 Scotland would have knocked on in that position...its what we do.

Hi EWT, I agree that was a big moment and it did have major consequences, if Cussiter didnt have a brain fart at that time then the ball would easily have been cleared. However I dont believe anyone can say that it cost Scotland the game. In almost every game you get shifts of momentum, you very rarely get a game where it is all one side going forward, although I remember a couple of times Wales have been in Twickenham

That one moment however should not have caused Scotland to implode, and in fairness to Wales we were, for once ruthless when the opportunity arose. I dont think its fair to blame Cussiter for half his team going missing for the next quarter.

I think we have to accept that different referees from different countries, referee the game differently.

So many times over the years i have seen the Japanease national team penalised for diving over the top of rucks, any time one if formed all their forwards go straight over, yet when they get any kind of British referee they are penalised out of the game for it. When they get a Pacific nation ref they are fine, as penalties for it are not given.
Yet diving over the top is pretty much standard practice for Japanease players domestically.

Most referees have games every week, so it should not be hard for analysts to look at the way a particular referee applies the rules to the game and try and play with him. If he lets some things go then the team needs to be ready to take advantage of it, if he is strict on certain things they need to look for that too.

Teams should and probably do analyse the referee just as they would any opposition player.

Scotland were much improved on last week.

But they were nowhere near being the better side, and at no time looked like winning this game. If Scotland really want to get better, scapegoating refereeing decisions is a road to nowhere.

Yep he did but it was more of a rip.

But Scotland got away with murder at the breakdown, so things even out.

I can think of a million and one moments in Wales games that i thought we got the raw end of the deal but it's daft just to relive them and wind your self up.

Its like the story of the little boy who's puppy died and he dug it up every day because he couldn't get over it!
Every day it hurt more because the dog decayed into a further mess.

Moto is move on and leave it be.

viewtothegym wrote:Yep he did but it was more of a rip.

But Scotland got away with murder at the breakdown, so things even out.

I can think of a million and one moments in Wales games that i thought we got the raw end of the deal but it's daft just to relive them and wind your self up.

Its like the story of the little boy who's puppy died and he dug it up every day because he couldn't get over it!
Every day it hurt more because the dog decayed into a further mess.

Moto is move on and leave it be.

And that boy grew up to be "George North" da da daaaaa


I've just watched the match again, can anyone explain to me why gethin was yellow carded?

Not sure the camera didn't seem to catch what went on but i think it was not rolling away.

He was no where near the ball,

there were two rucks, one of them he sort of fell over and could be penalised for coming in the side - so I think he was carded for that. The second ruck looked perfectly fine to me.

Both didn't effect the game or slow it down in any way

And why wasn't the scottish guy penalised for decent when he had a tantrum?

To be fair Roman Poite isn't a very good ref, i remember his dumb face in the Wales v Fiji game Autumn 2010.

Fiji didn't even tackle they just went in with a shoulder or straight arm trying to take your head off and he just ignored it and lets not forget that farce that was the scrum five on Fijis line, eleven resets and then Fiji sub the offending prop.

slartibartfast wrote:And why wasn't the scottish guy penalised for decent when he had a tantrum?

I know we had a poor referee, but even Romain Poite wouldn't yellow card someone for being decent. Now dissent, that is a different matter.

gmclachl wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:And why wasn't the scottish guy penalised for decent when he had a tantrum?

I know we had a poor referee, but even Romain Poite wouldn't yellow card someone for being decent. Now dissent, that is a different matter.

Hey you leave our Sean Lamont alone .... he is a DECENT guy

slartibartfast wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Yep he did but it was more of a rip.

But Scotland got away with murder at the breakdown, so things even out.

I can think of a million and one moments in Wales games that i thought we got the raw end of the deal but it's daft just to relive them and wind your self up.

Its like the story of the little boy who's puppy died and he dug it up every day because he couldn't get over it!
Every day it hurt more because the dog decayed into a further mess.

Moto is move on and leave it be.

And that boy grew up to be "George North" da da daaaaa


I've just watched the match again, can anyone explain to me why gethin was yellow carded?

Team penalty for persistent infringement , I believe, and Gethin was last one caught inside the Welsh 22

SubsBench wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

SubsBench wrote:

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:

logie28 wrote:... this was the awful desicion that won Wales the match....

Yet you're "not saying that's why the match was won or lost".

Give me a moment, logie, while I figure that one out!

Meanwhile, I'm old fashioned. I reckon reffing is a tough job, and when we get worked up about single, difficult calls, we can lose sight of the most important things. All the best games are played - and watched - in a spirit of generosity and sportsmanship.

As to this game as a whole, Scotland played some good rugby and Grey could've been MotM. But Wales never looked like losing.

+ 1

I dont think any single moment cost Scotland the game and I'm sure that most of us who watched the game on TV spent most of the game shouting at Poite. Scottish, Welsh amd neutrals alike, and while I thought he was terrible I wouldnt want his job for the world!

Subsbench, I would have to disagree that no single moment cost Scotland the match, when we missed the restart, it knocked the teams confidence massively and seemed to give Wales a boost. In my opinion that is where the game turned and thats what cost us the match.

Oh and I saw the hand knocking the ball out of chunks mit, but only on the replays. The ref wasn't brilliant, but I don't think much blame can be put on him for that, as it would be pretty tough to call. Plus as much as it saddens me to say, I think 99 times out of 100 Scotland would have knocked on in that position...its what we do.

Hi EWT, I agree that was a big moment and it did have major consequences, if Cussiter didnt have a brain fart at that time then the ball would easily have been cleared. However I dont believe anyone can say that it cost Scotland the game. In almost every game you get shifts of momentum, you very rarely get a game where it is all one side going forward, although I remember a couple of times Wales have been in Twickenham

That one moment however should not have caused Scotland to implode, and in fairness to Wales we were, for once ruthless when the opportunity arose. I dont think its fair to blame Cussiter for half his team going missing for the next quarter.

Hi Subsbench,

I should have gone into more detail with what I meant. You could see from the mistake from Cus that Wales took a lot of confidence from it and we were shaken, which is understandable given our recent history of what happens when we make mistakes from restarts. From there Wales scored and a few of our players had a mare (2 yellow cards) and Wales used the man advantage and killed the game off (normally one try does the job against us).

We shouldn't have crumbled the way we did but we had a moment of weakness and Wales pounced and fair play to them.

Still drunk

slartibartfast wrote:Still drunk

Good man.