A discussion based on the possibility of the Dragons being an official development region

I hate to think about it but if Gwent Dragons are forced into becoming an official development region, how do you think it would work? This isn't a discussion about whether it will or won't happen, but more about how it could best operate for Welsh rugby.

We've often been branded an unofficial development region, the Welsh Connacht, etc. but the recent announcement by the WRU that they're considering different funding models for each region, coupled with the high number of our best players leaving, has led me to the conclusion that it is more likely than ever that we could go down this road. For me, I don't think going down to 3 teams is viable. 4 teams seems about right to spread the talent of an interntational squad and also to allow gaps for new talent to come through. 3 teams would mean even more talent leaving Wales, or even more warming the bench. 5 teams would cost too much, or would lead to the cake being split 5 ways instead of 4, which would leave even less money to retain the top players.

So, I could see a situation where the WRU concentrates resources in the top 3 sides (Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys) so that they firstly have more money to retain the top welsh talent, and secondly so that you would probably have the interntaional players gravitating to the top 3 teams which would make them more competitive in Europe, thus leading to better attendances at their games, etc., etc. I guess you could think of it as being same as we have now but with Tovey, Charteris, Brew, Lydiate, Burns and Faletau running out for one of the other regions in the HC.

Would there then be some sort of system in place where players were 'sent' to the Dragons for game time/development? Would this need central contracts to happen? Perhaps from the academies the next step is to go to the Dragons for experience and game time in the Pro 12 and the less intense Amlin Cup, sort of like a stepping stone to pro rugby. The ones that stick there hand up as quality players with the Dragons are then farmed out to whichever of the other 3 regions needs their services.

Or, could we see a situation where the Dragons are given one last shot? 2 years to prove your worth or we open up to proposals for a new region, with tenders from the valleys an/or north wales?

I'm pretty sure that something is going to change. If playing in the Heineken Cup is deemed the be all and end all for international players, or those with aspirations for it, then playing for the Dragons is not even going to be on the radar of the top Welsh players. They'll avoid us like the plague. We're hearing that Tovey has been told by the WRU he needs to be playing HC rugby, for example. From a Welsh rugby perspective could it therefore be beneficial to have an 'interim' team where the up and coming players cut their teeth and get to put themselves in the shop window for the 'big 3' regions? It would be painful for me as a fan, and I know it would severely harm attendances (not sure I'd renew my season ticket if it happened), but on the other hand it would be great to see a lot of young talent running out at RP. We could then claim to have a hand in the development of all future stars (and we won't let the other regions forget it I'm sure!)!

So, what do people think? Would this be a good move by the WRU or completely pants?

Would be a bad move by the WRU, we already see that the Best MUster, Leinster and Ulster players stay and work their way into the team, only teh players that arn't going to make it in their own province first go to Connacht, (some then return better players) but we're talking of players the level of Carr, not Fitz.

So IMO Dragons wouldn't be getting any of the top young players, only those that look like they maybe won't make it at their own region.

I don't see Dragons fans filling Rodney Pardade to support a team that has no hope of winning silverware, as I said on another thread, the IRFU are trying to develop rugby as a popular sport in Connacht and biulding a team there slowly, Dragons are different as rugby is already popular so game doesn't need grown there.

What about if the WRU increased funding to all the regions, (the WRU make about the same as the IRFU, but the IRFU spend a higher percent on the Provinces) to do this the Welsh prem funding would be cut down, (the Irish league is a poor league compared to Welsh prem, English championship)

So would people be happy if the regions got more funding at the expense of the Welsh prem?

To be honest Griff I can't even entertain the idea of this. I can tell you now I would not renew my season ticket (been a ST holder for 6 years) if this happened. It would be a huge backwards step IMO.

Have you also heard about the option of the Dragons becoming a Newport superclub?

Are the Dragons going to be consulted before any changes are made?

It would be deeply unfair to punsh the Dragons for being the last-placed region when, as I've posted elsewhere, they were runners-up in the Celtic league in their first season. Cutting their funding would prevent them from ever hoping to replicate that.

There's been lots of talk about low attendances and soulless half-empty megadromes. Now, it's generally accepted that Dave Parade is a great place for watching rugby as you're almost guaranteed a great atmosphere; is the WRU going to jeopardise that by cutting the funding to the Dragons and encouraging its best players to leave?

Impossible Standards wrote:To be honest Griff I can't even entertain the idea of this. I can tell you now I would not renew my season ticket (been a ST holder for 6 years) if this happened. It would be a huge backwards step IMO.

Have you also heard about the option of the Dragons becoming a Newport superclub?

No I haven't heard that rumour IS, do tell?!

I have been a season ticket holder at RP since the start, and year on year it gets a bit more gloomy down there. It just feels like the vultures are circling! We're being told that there's not enough money to keep the top talent in Wales, that interntaional players need to be playing in the Heineken Cup, that they may fund different regions differently, and that just makes me twitchy! The best solution would obviously be to have 4 really competitive regions. But how do we get this under the current financial situation?

Terrible idea and Connacht is not a fair comparison. Connacht are from a region of Ireland with no real rugby tradition, unlike the other three.

They are being managed in a way in the hope that in the long term they can become a 'full' province rugby wise.

Newport/Ebbw Vale is by contrast an area with a rich rugby tradition and to downgrade that is bonkers.

I've written this elsewhere, but I get the feeling that the players and the regions' chairmen know something we don't. I doubt it's a coincidence that the Blues played a game at the Arms Park days after Roger Lewis made his comments about the possibility of the regions having different relationships with the WRU.

The teutonic plates are clearly moving in Wales.

Osprey's off loading a load of players to cut down the wages bill.
Cardiff edging towards a move back to CAP
Dragons status in doubt
Fifth province under discussion.

Interesing for us outsiders very unsettling for Welsh fans

We've had too much stability in Wales now: 8 years without any tinkering or messing around from the WRU! That's not normal! Something is brewing, and I think it will be this "different funding model for different regions" approach (I think Roger Lewis described it as a 'different financial relationship' with each region).

I think this could either mean that they literally pick 2 or 3 regions and give them the majority of the funding (as I said in the OP), or they will award funding calculated on the number of international players that a region produces. Either way, it doesn't look like there will be parity of status or funding across the regions going forward. That, IMO, will not help to grow the game or increase attendances. Who would want to support a lesser region?

geoff998rugby wrote:The teutonic plates are clearly moving in Wales.

Osprey's off loading a load of players to cut down the wages bill.
Cardiff edging towards a move back to CAP
Dragons status in doubt
Fifth province under discussion.

Interesing for us outsiders very unsettling for Welsh fans

Very true Geoff. It's odd because it is in such stark contrast to the national team where interest, attendances, the bank balance, etc. are all in rude health. And that's without the national team actually winning anything of note since 2008. They just seem to capture the public imagination far more for some reason.

Griff wrote:I think this could either mean that they literally pick 2 or 3 regions and give them the majority of the funding (as I said in the OP), or they will award funding calculated on the number of international players that a region produces.

But what would 'producing' a player mean in practice? The Dragons 'produced' Jason Tovey; will we get the money if he wins his first cap next season as a Blues player? I bet we won't.

geoff998rugby wrote:The teutonic plates are clearly moving in Wales.

The Teutonic Plates? Is that some Krautrock band I've never heard of?

No I haven't heard that rumour IS, do tell?!

Griff - Firstly what I have read and been told is NOT concrete so just judge this how you see fit.

Basically there has been an idea put forward and accepted by some members that Newport Gwent Dragons will be disbanded next season and be replaced by a team playing at RP called possibly Newport Dragons. They will be a stand alone club and receive less funding from the WRU. They would still represent the region. Newport's place in the new ring-fenced, reduced welsh premiership will be taken away and replaced by Pontypool in return for this 'super-club' option.

Again this is only what I have heard from others and read so please don't shoot the messenger.

So would this 'superclub' be playing in the Pro 12 or in the Premiership?

Zut alors Mr Standards! That would ruffle a few feathers in the region! Not sure why the WRU would go for this though? It seems a bit of a backwards step from regionalisation???

Exactly, Griff.

Ugh, I hate this sense of uncertainty over the Dragons.

thought the wru would continue with the 4 regions as it is, and introduce RGC 1404 (North Wales) as it's development region. Whether there's enough players in Wales for 5 regions is another story.

So would this 'superclub' be playing in the Pro 12 or in the Premiership?

Pro 12 Luckless. I agree this uncertainty over the Dragons is very unnerving. I'm caught between the joy of a good welsh 6 nations campaign so far and the fact that the NGD's could be disbanded next season. With all the players leaving this season I can't help wonder if they know something we don't.

I've heard a rumour that Martyn Thomas may be off to Leicester! I sh*t you not!

I don't understand this. Why would the WRU want to 'disband' the Dragons but continue funding a region that represents Gwent?

I would be quire happy if Newport got disbanded and they decided to have a real development region the North

Griff - Yep heard that to. This is a sad sad season for us Dragons fans.

Luckless - Like I mentioned I'm just passing on what I have heard. Its seems it's also being discussed on a Dragons forum too. Here is the link you may want to pick the bones out for yourself.

http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=3794&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I keep forgetting about Dragged Up. I'll have a look this evening!

I hope this is not the case. I don't believe that the Dragons are that poor of a side. For me, with a good coach they could make some serious steps forward. that's in my view, what's holding them back, and giving the WRU and excuse to possible reduce funding or disband the club. It really is a mess isn't this regions business. Have a North Wales region as a development side, increase funding for Blues, Scarlets, Osprey's and Dragons and decrease spending on the Welsh prem. If you don't keep your best players, you won't earn success and you certainly won't increase crowd numbers.

Oh and one more thing, would the WRU look at the disgusting prices of food and drink at the regions, bleeding scandalous.

Martyr, it's ony £2.50 for a pint at the Dragons if memory serves. I think that's quite good for a pro-sports event! Most of the pubs are over that now. What do they charge at the millenium?

If they were to have Newport as the pro representative from Gwent, with the other teams (Cross Keys, Pontypool, Ebbw Vale and Bedwas, but not Newport RFC) underpinning them in the Welsh Prem, could there be a sort of inter-regional promotion/relegation opportunity if Newport don't do very well? i.e. if Newport become a super club in the Pro 12 but don't do very well, could the best Gwent team step up e.g. Cross Keys and become the new Gwent pro representative, and Newport RFC would then go back down to the premiership? Probably an even worse suggestion, but thought I'd put it out there!

Who blydi knows what's going to happen!

Who knows this whole mess is a lot to ponder. I guess we just have to wait and see.....

Griff wrote:Martyr, it's ony £2.50 for a pint at the Dragons if memory serves. I think that's quite good for a pro-sports event! Most of the pubs are over that now. What do they charge at the millenium?

I was referring more to the Millenium and the Blues in that statement. Think i'll come down the Dragons from now on then

I wonder if this move is to be fairer to other teams i.e., reduce the funding for the Dragons and allow promotion to and from the premiership so that good clubs like Bridgend and Ponty have a chance to play at a higher level as they will get the Dragons funding when they go down! If the new club develops players as they have with greater sucess than the Dragons they may stay up for a few seasons. This has to be better than a closed shop we have now. If this is all true it is the Dragons and the other regions like the Blues to blame and not being inclusive!

western mail reported the martyn thomas to tigers rumour:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/02/11/biarritz-target-dragon-and-wales-winger-aled-brew-91466-30310485/#ixzz1m6rSXgDX

I really hope they don't go down this path, I'm open to reduce to 3 regions, provided the players are centrally contracted and the teams move around their region.

But to simply give them less than the other teams would be silly, though you do have to say that the Dragons currently do get equal money £3.5m a season from the WRU and spend only £2.5m on wages. Finally the Dragons are in 11 spot in the league, out of 12, which is very poor to be honest.

Maybe the regions should get their money based on where they are placed in the league and what competitions they qualify for, because it could be argued that the Ospreys and Blues are being treated unfairly by losing prize money they should be entitled to because the Dragons werent even in the Heinaken Cup.

Pointless tinkering. Will tick a few boxes on a management performance review plan blah blah proforma.

Either create proper regions or leave it as it is.

AlynDavies wrote:I really hope they don't go down this path, I'm open to reduce to 3 regions, provided the players are centrally contracted and the teams move around their region.

But to simply give them less than the other teams would be silly, though you do have to say that the Dragons currently do get equal money £3.5m a season from the WRU and spend only £2.5m on wages. Finally the Dragons are in 11 spot in the league, out of 12, which is very poor to be honest.

Maybe the regions should get their money based on where they are placed in the league and what competitions they qualify for, because it could be argued that the Ospreys and Blues are being treated unfairly by losing prize money they should be entitled to because the Dragons werent even in the Heinaken Cup.

What prize money? They didn't win anything! If you mean TV money, then the Dragons are entitled to a bit too as all of their Amlin games were televised live on Sky sports and S4C.

When people talk about cutting the regions to 3, you have to take into account how limited the number of players Warren Gatland gets to choose from. This time last year the Scarlets no8 was Lyons with Ben Morgan. The Ospreys had Collins , the Blues Rush and the dragons had Faletau. Garland somehow ignored Toby and plumper for the cart horse Ryan Jones who was at that time playing lock. You take the Dragons out of the mix and ask yourself would Toby Faletau be as developed as he is if it weren't for the opportunity he gets at the Dragons. In welsh rugby there has been an endless list of players who are tipped to make the grade, just not cut it and sometimes it comes down to a lack of first team opportunities.
If you have 3 regions, no doubt they would be stronger and more competitive in Europe, but I fear talent would be wasted

Is it a cop out by the WRU to help the blues scarlets and Os reduce they're debt, the blues are apparently going to announce big losses this year no offence scarlets fans, but rugby in Llanelli has been the wru's RBS over the years.I imagine the O's have over spent a bit too.
The dragons have always been a bit more restrained and tried to keep the debt down and now in my opinion its coming back to bite them on ass.We are going to have our allocation cut and shared between the other three to stop them going bust

Some reward for running a financially-sound business, isn't it?

It may just be me being sceptical but it would'nt be the biggest surprise in the world would it.

I don't think they'll go down to 3 regions, but by announcing that they may fund them individually suggests they've got plans to fund some more and some or one less. Logic tells me that they won't give the Dragons more!

There's 3 things to consider here, and that's what makes me think that we'll be a development region, whether officially or unofficially:

1. Top Welsh players don't want to come to us, or want to leave us when they're good enough, because the Welsh selectors want them playing HC rugby.
2. It looks like we may be funded less so will not be able to afford any top stars anyway.
3. With the overseas quota (which I wholeheartedly agree with) we can't fill the gaps with too many foreigners, and rightly so.

But, all these 3 points dictate that we will be forced into playing youth and/or Welsh journeymen. This is fine, and we've been doing a lot of it lately anyway, but there is still an expectation from the fans and the rest of the rugby loving population across Wales (especially those who 'didn't get a region') that we should be as competitive as the other regions. There are calls to close us down because we're not challenging for silverware. I just think that it would be much better for the fans, players, etc. if we were just told that yes the Dragons will receive less money (if this is the case) and you will be officially a development region and expectations are lowered accordingly. Otherwise, we're a development region anyway by necessity but people will continue to slate us for not competing.

Of course there is one thing that could change this and that's a big cash injection from a benefactor. I don't like relying on benefactors as they can walk away when they're bored, but I can't see another way for the Dragons to change our status, unless we can fluke a 3rd place and sneak into the HC, attract some big names, secure the WRU funding, and the funding cut is passed on to someone else! Unlikely.

If it happened surely they would have to be completely owned by the WRU, no business man with an ounce of sense would plow money into something only to see it best assets (players) moved on very couple of years and have to start from scratch again.

Well, it's happening now Bedford. The best players are moving on every couple of years with the offer of better money. It's the way of the world unfortunately.

Yeah fair one Griff but if it was official then would current people pull out and if they did it would be a hard sell to try get different ones in.

Lets hope we just all worrying to much.

What would happen if the Pie man or Cuddy decided to walk away from their respective regions. They would be left with a salary bill that the current business model wouldn't sustain. At least the Dragons have a more sustainable business model in place, for a start there's no benefactor ploughing a large amount of money into the region and they don't owe the local council millions of pounds. Really looking at it from a business perspective the Dragons should be the ones to be rewarded for this.

IS,

Thing is the WRU will be involved in the decision making somewhere along the lines so common sense wont come into it so god help us,

You're absolutely right, IS, but I bet the WRU are going to be looking at things based on the Pro 12 table over anything else.

A fundamental weakness with the Pro 12 is the geographic spread of the league and failure to deliver away fans in any numbers. Derby games between the regions as attended in reasonable numbers. Reducing to three South Wales and one North Wales region is not going to help at all

I still think the best think the WRU could do is cut funding to the Welsh prem, this extra funding would go to the regions. Welsh prem would be poorer than it is now, but regions would be better.

As for Dragons they need to start keeping players they develop. Longer contracts etc.

I think the route the WRU will take will be similar to English model, each region will get a basic amount each, the rest will be divided up depending on how many players you supply to the Welsh national squad.

But if Tovey is selected next year the Blues will get teh reward for him not the Dragons, as they are the ones losing playing time for him. Dragons shouldn't be letting players leave on a free. A longer contract on Tovey and Blues would have had to but him of Dragons.

This may seem a silly question but how do transfers work in the rugby world?

We never, or very rarely here of the money side of things like in the football world but I am guessing now we are proffessional there must be a transfer fee, not like it was years ago, boot money, brown envelope etc etc.

Bedford, I don't think there is any transfer fee. A fee is only paid to the club if a player is bought out of contract. Most of the time a player will see his contract through with a club then about half way through the final year of the expiring contract is due the players agent will start re-negotiations with the current club or other clubs that have approached. This is when all the rumours start. This re-negotiation is how a player can then up his salary (if he is worth it).

if they chage our funding or try to make us a superclub i will not be supporting thme any longer bye bye to domestic rugby for me ill be over watching newport county!