Pro 12, becoming a serously good league?

Comparing the Pro 12 at its begingings to as it is now, I think that we have possality of having the best League in the world.

Back when it was formed we had the problem of regionalisation, and 2 sides folding. The sides have now bedded in, and two Italian sides have joined.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster are all strong teams, Connacht are improving and I think some teams still underestimate them.

Ospreys are rebuilding but still strong, Blues will need to but should stay competative, Scarlets already have and are looking to be really good in a few years if they carry on the upward curve, Dragons are losing their best players and look to be going backwards.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are now under a new SRU control and are getting better, in playoff spot and Hcup Qfinal, things look better for next year.

Teviso and Aironi are improving, Teviso more so, and are becoming a mid table side and could improve, Aironi have a way to go yet.

With so many teams improving teams have to run to standstill. Of the top 10 teams in Europe more than a third (3 leagues so a 1/3 each would be an even distrubtion) are in the Pro 12.

However some of the same problems still arise that we had at the beginging.

Regions, we could write a book of this.
Distance apart, you get fewer away fans at games outside your domestic country, but this is being largly offsest by the teams growning and attracting more home supporters, I don't believe it's the same problem as it was.
Lack of rivalries outside domestic derbies, I think these are beginging to start, Munster v Ospreys, Ulster v Scarlets are some, but could do with more to add more spice.
No relegration, I actually think no relegration is good, it works for Super rugby, and allows long term planning.
H-cup entry, this is an issue, you need to have representives from each country, but Italy and Scotland getting two Automatic entries and Ireland and Wales 3. I feel that this could be improved. I still see it as every county would get at least one entry, (won't go into this on this thread).
Money, the TV deals and sponsorship are still a long way of the equilivent leagues in England and France, we need to improve on this to get up to an Equal footing in terms of spending power.


What are your thoughts?
If the WRU change the regions could it upset the league?
Could rivalries be built up more?
Could sponsorship and TV money be better?

On thing I belive that could improve it would be if newpapers cover the entire League, alot of Irish papers will only write up about games an Irish team is playing in, your hard pushed to see a write up of a Welsh or Scottish game, and no chance if its an Italian derby. I'm sure its the same in Wales and Scotland, only games that involve a domestic team get a mention. For me the Newpapers need to cover the entire league, not just local teams, to generate more intrest in the table and how other teams are going.

Thoughts?

The Pro 12 is making good progress. Still not there yet though.

Good for the league that the Scottish clubs are improving. Also that Treviso are making more of an impact.

Dragons and Aironi are struggling though.

Still need to work on attendances.

As a relatively young league I think the Pro12 is doing very well.

Why would a local paper cover teams from another country? That's what the Pro12 website is for. Going by that logic then Papers should cover all teams from all sports as you can't just specialise in one area.

I do enjoy our league though and agree that it has got better over the years...although not for Dragons fans

The vastely overwhelming indicately of 'quality' is whether the observer's team is playing in the league. If they do then you'll be more interested in it. If not then less so. It's just the way it is. The worst thing about the RaboDirect Pro 12 is the name

Impossible Standards wrote:Why would a local paper cover teams from another country? That's what the Pro12 website is for. Going by that logic then Papers should cover all teams from all sports as you can't just specialise in one area.

I do enjoy our league though and agree that it has got better over the years...although not for Dragons fans

Even National newspapers only cover games with an Irish team, thats what I was meaning, you be hard pushed to find a write up of a Blues V Glasgow game. I think that to generate more intrest the whole league needs covered.

How many times have you gone to a game and someone asks how the opposition are doing? or even if they are any good? as they don't ever get to see results for them apart from h-cup.

I agree that the teams are good. We see it in the HC. But the quality of rugby can sometimes be abysmal, no surprise that the crowds stay away.

It slowly but surely getting there isn't it?!

I've thought for a while now that there are three things holding it back;

- more meaningful games. All games are meaningful, no team wants to lose but something on the line week in week out. Most leagues have this issue st some point in the season, but the playoffs/HC quals are helping.
- television coverage/rights. The better the deal, the better the players that stay/attracted.
- my major concern is the quality of games, not through play, but by the sometimes awful officiating in the league. How long did we put up with the Changlengs?

On a side note, I'd love to see more of an inter-nation series a la State of Origin. East v West in Wales for example...

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:It slowly but surely getting there isn't it?!

I've thought for a while now that there are three things holding it back;

- more meaningful games. All games are meaningful, no team wants to lose but something on the line week in week out. Most leagues have this issue st some point in the season, but the playoffs/HC quals are helping.
- television coverage/rights. The better the deal, the better the players that stay/attracted.
- my major concern is the quality of games, not through play, but by the sometimes awful officiating in the league. How long did we put up with the Changlengs?

On a side note, I'd love to see more of an inter-nation series a la State of Origin. East v West in Wales for example...

Yea i agree with everything there.

I'll also add that there isn't enough depth in most squads because of the lack of money (bar the Irish teams). Thats another reason why some games can be such dross. Television rights would help this. ESPN or SKY come on!

Don't get me started on the officiating. It can be terrible sometimes and also the choice of referees for certain games is stupid. Why have an Italian who can hardly speak english ref a welsh derby?!

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:It slowly but surely getting there isn't it?!

I've thought for a while now that there are three things holding it back;

- more meaningful games. All games are meaningful, no team wants to lose but something on the line week in week out. Most leagues have this issue st some point in the season, but the playoffs/HC quals are helping.
- television coverage/rights. The better the deal, the better the players that stay/attracted.
- my major concern is the quality of games, not through play, but by the sometimes awful officiating in the league. How long did we put up with the Changlengs?

On a side note, I'd love to see more of an inter-nation series a la State of Origin. East v West in Wales for example...

The first game in the new Lansdowne rd (Known as the Cunster match.....well by me anyway) Officially called the combined provinces game.

Uleinster thrashed Cunster by a cricket score. (Was an under 20s game)

I remember it, bright colourful kits!

I just think it'd be great to see the best we have going hard at each other over a thre 'test' series over the year. Another way to blood internationals.
I do realise that it's more rugby though...

No point. The only place you would get a good crowd is Ireland. There's no interest for club rugby in Wales, Scotland and Italy.

I'd like to see a trophy based on how the triple crown is awarded within the 6 nations.

There would be a separate league table for each country and only results against teams from your own country count,these mini leagues would run alongside the main league.It would mean that there was a seperate Welsh/Irish/Scottish and Italian champion.It would be less meaningful for Italy and Scotland as they only have 2 teams but it might give mid table Irish and Welsh teams something to work for.

The league is continueing to grow every year. You'd have to say it has been a success. In the Early days it was a bit like the LV cup is now ie not taken too seriously. Teams regarded it as a warm up to the HEC.

Nowadays it has become a competition every team wants to win. Look at the likes of Glasgow. They're currently out of the HEC but they're in fourth position in the Pro 12 so they have something to play for and that brings in crowds.

The Welsh teams and Aironi are the main concern at the moment. The Welsh are restructuring their system and Aironi has found the going tougher than they thought and need to start winning to get more fans to come. The Welsh don't help themselves.

The Scottish teams and Connacht look to be on the up. Ulster have greatly improved too. Attendances are up forthose teams.

The sponsorship increase seems to be a slow process although Rabodirect came in this season and outbid magners by a large margin from what I heard. Its still a long way off the T14 and AP but with less negativity around the league and a higher standard of play this should increase too.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I'd like to see a trophy based on how the triple crown is awarded within the 6 nations.

There would be a separate league table for each country and only results against teams from your own country count,these mini leagues would run alongside the main league.It would mean that there was a seperate Welsh/Irish/Scottish and Italian champion.It would be less meaningful for Italy and Scotland as they only have 2 teams but it might give mid table Irish and Welsh teams something to work for.

I don't think thatwould achieve much. The derby games are hotly contested anyway and personally I don't rate triple crowns as anything to boast about.

I forgot to add to the main article about the poor ref's and that more players are missing for longer due to international call ups, while the league continues.

personally I'd like there to be a separate interprovincial table running with the IRFU giving the winner a trophy, or WRU a regional trophy.

I've even though that a Inter pro cup mipe be nice, near start of season have a double header in NLR( drawn from a hat, something like Munster v Ulster and Connacht V Leinster), and the two winners play a final later in the year, only adds two games to a year, would be close to selling out NLR twice, play games while Welsh teams play in LV=cup.


Welsh could do same if they wished

I agree that in Ireland there's almost no coverage of the other teams. It's the same on TV. Highlights are only shown of the Irish sides. It'd be good if the highlights show covered all the games and helped people get more familiar with all the teams. They could also keep viewers up to date with the top scorers list and have try of the month competitions. They need to generate more interest in the league as a whole and not just focus on a few teams of one nationality.

I'm not sure about the suggestions of abysmal quality games. Is that true? I've been watching just Leinster games this year and they're playing superbly. No matter who starts it's the same Leinster brand of rugby. Fast, physical, attacking rugby. It's great to watch.

Leinster and Munster do seem to have much more strength in depth in their squads than the other teams. They're doing far better than the others at keeping all their best players at home. It's disappointing to see the likes of Charteris and Gray leave. Superb players that need to be held onto. It's an example of how the poor crowds in Scotland and Wales are really damaging to those countries. It's resulting in less money and less enthusiasm amongst home grown players to stay loyal to their team.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I'd like to see a trophy based on how the triple crown is awarded within the 6 nations.

There would be a separate league table for each country and only results against teams from your own country count,these mini leagues would run alongside the main league.It would mean that there was a seperate Welsh/Irish/Scottish and Italian champion.It would be less meaningful for Italy and Scotland as they only have 2 teams but it might give mid table Irish and Welsh teams something to work for.

Edinburgh and Glasgow contest the 1872 cup. Glasgow won it this season.

I think it's likely that the Welsh national team will have a few years of sustained success now. I wonder will that have positive knock on effect on the regional attendances and interest?

Feckless Rogue wrote:I agree that in Ireland there's almost no coverage of the other teams. It's the same on TV. Highlights are only shown of the Irish sides. It'd be good if the highlights show covered all the games and helped people get more familiar with all the teams. They could also keep viewers up to date with the top scorers list and have try of the month competitions. They need to generate more interest in the league as a whole and not just focus on a few teams of one nationality.

I'm not sure about the suggestions of abysmal quality games. Is that true? I've been watching just Leinster games this year and they're playing superbly. No matter who starts it's the same Leinster brand of rugby. Fast, physical, attacking rugby. It's great to watch.

Leinster and Munster do seem to have much more strength in depth in their squads than the other teams. They're doing far better than the others at keeping all their best players at home. It's disappointing to see the likes of Charteris and Gray leave. Superb players that need to be held onto. It's an example of how the poor crowds in Scotland and Wales are really damaging to those countries. It's resulting in less money and less enthusiasm amongst home grown players to stay loyal to their team.

Your right Leinster play well all year round. Same with Munster and at a push Ulster.
But the rest of the teams in the comp don't have the depth to field good sides all the time probably because of the lack of interest and money. They usually field kids which is great to see but the quality of rugby is bad.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think it's likely that the Welsh national team will have a few years of sustained success now. I wonder will that have positive knock on effect on the regional attendances and interest?

I doubt it. There has never been big interest in club/regional rugby in Wales. People just don't like watching that level of rugby for some reason.

Kingshu wrote:
What are your thoughts?
If the WRU change the regions could it upset the league?
Could rivalries be built up more?
Could sponsorship and TV money be better?

Rivalries develop with time, if we find Leinster and the Ospreys always competing for the Rabo Direct championship then I'm sure those teams will come to develop a rivalry over time.

I think the WRU should change the teams, then need to have West, East and North teams. with the West and East teams moving around the better A* stadiums.

East Wales would play in Cardiff Arms Park, Sardis Road, and Rodney Parade on rota, while the West Wales derby could be played at the Millenium stadium.

West Wales would play in Parc Y Scarlets, the Liberty stadium and the Brewery Field, or Island farm when / if it's build.

While North Wales would alternate between the Race course in Wrexham, and Park Erias in Colwyn Bay.

I don't think making these changes would upset anyone to be honest, because from an East Wales perspective we would still have Newport, Cardiff and Pontypridd clubs going at it for local rivalries and the "new" regions would not be only affiliated to one single town, like they are now. Provided we cut EVERY trace of the clubs and regions out of the new entities, AND move the teams around so people feel like they are part of their community, then we will not have any problems.

The extra money we save from the 4th region, we could either make a 12 team semi pro league with 4 teams from each of East, West and North Wales, or simply have more money for Wages to remain competitive.

I think would increase the strength of the Rabo direct league by making the Welsh more competitive with the Irish. Because I think the extra player depth Ireland has tells in the league at the moment, Welsh regions are really struggling.

gowales wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think it's likely that the Welsh national team will have a few years of sustained success now. I wonder will that have positive knock on effect on the regional attendances and interest?

I doubt it. There has never been big interest in club/regional rugby in Wales. People just don't like watching that level of rugby for some reason.

That used to be the case in Ireland too. In fact there was probably less interest in it here than in Wales at the start. But now the Irish provinces are lauded as the most lucrative and passionately supported teams in the league. The strange thing is I think it was success in another competition, the HEC, which won the devotion of the public and caused a surge in league attendances.

I don't think any Welsh region is ever gonna match the attendances of the big French or English teams. But I do think it's possible for them to attract 10-15k every home game. If only they were all in smaller rugby stadiums, that would create great atmosphere at the games.

Ireland doesn't really have extra player depth over wales, the number of senior males - over 18 years of age - registered in each nation. (England 166,762, France 110,270, Ireland 25,440, Wales 22,408, Italy 15,848, Scotland 11,687)

Don't think you can say that Ireland can support 4 teams and Wales only three on that.

Personally I don't know if I'd like a change in the regions as it'll take even more time for things to settle. 3/4 representive teams would have always been better than promoting superclubs, but would Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Llanali accept your proposials? doubt it. So while a good idea, is never workable.

Feckless - the Scarlets attendances have risen this season, and I have no doubt that there may well be a link to the increased attendance and the fact that we have more welsh internationals than we have in a long time. So I think that if we were to start winning things internationally then people would probably turn up to see the stars playing.

That's what I'd hope Spiderman. If Scarlets can hold onto the great players they've produced and make some astute foreign signings there's no reason why they couldn't make a meaningful assault on the Heineken Cup over the next few years.

It would be disappointing to see the likes of North and Priestland leave. Unfortunately that seems to be the trend at some of the other regions recently.

I thought it was valentines day not April fools day. On paper it looks like a good league, but in reality it's pretty poor. It only really gets going after the 6 nations. Let's be honest. The HC Is where it's at. How many of the top Irish players play more than a handful of games in the Rabies?
As a Dragons fan I only really look forward with the same excient as I did back in the amateur days to our derbies. They're great occasions although I do miss going to the likes of the Scarlets on a Saturday at 2.30 as I still haven't been to the new ground and that's purely because of work commitments. I just don't get excited by Glasgow at 5 pm on a Sunday. I go, but to be honest the atmosphere just isn't the same. This Saturday we're home to Edinburgh on Saturday at 6.30 and don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to it, but I get more excited by watching a prem game, purely because of the lack of rivalry. That for me is what's missing. Real rivalries. The French and the English leagues still have it and I'm envious of that.
Introducing play offs has helped, but maybe making the top 8 places guaranteed HC qualification and then maybe the bottom 4 could play off for the last HC place. That would still keep the interest at the foot of the table and maybe the 2 Scottish regions wouldn't drag out their top internationals and make the league a mockery!

manofgwent wrote:I thought it was valentines day not April fools day. On paper it looks like a good league, but in reality it's pretty poor. It only really gets going after the 6 nations. Let's be honest. The HC Is where it's at. How many of the top Irish players play more than a handful of games in the Rabies?
As a Dragons fan I only really look forward with the same excient as I did back in the amateur days to our derbies. They're great occasions although I do miss going to the likes of the Scarlets on a Saturday at 2.30 as I still haven't been to the new ground and that's purely because of work commitments. I just don't get excited by Glasgow at 5 pm on a Sunday. I go, but to be honest the atmosphere just isn't the same. This Saturday we're home to Edinburgh on Saturday at 6.30 and don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to it, but I get more excited by watching a prem game, purely because of the lack of rivalry. That for me is what's missing. Real rivalries. The French and the English leagues still have it and I'm envious of that.
Introducing play offs has helped, but maybe making the top 8 places guaranteed HC qualification and then maybe the bottom 4 could play off for the last HC place. That would still keep the interest at the foot of the table and maybe the 2 Scottish regions wouldn't drag out their top internationals and make the league a mockery!

Top Irish players? The Leinster team that played Treviso at the weekend had plenty of top Irish players. Just because you havn't heard of them it doesn't mean they are poor players. Munster have a very big squad too with the likes of Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Keatley, Tomas O'Leary, Stringer etc all struggling to get games this season. They'd hardly weaken the team. Squad size matters. Toulouse rotate all the time but nobody says that devalues the French league.

Also with the league being in its early stages it takes time to build up rivalaries.

Would success in major competitions interest the crowds? Munster and Leinster are both very successful teams who have won plenty of silverware between them. Maybe I should point out that when the Blues got to the semi final of the HEC in 2009 they had attendances of over 30k for both the quarter and semi finals in the Millenium Stadium.

manofgwent wrote: How many of the top Irish players play more than a handful of games in the Rabies?

With Munster, Leinster and Ulster all looking good to make the play offs, why not rest them? If they can get the points to be at around the top of the league, without having to play thier top players then why not rotate, it's up to the other teams in the league to be good enough where they HAVE to play their top players to get a win.

I don't believe this can be used to critise the league when the Irish teams are mostly at the top. Scotland withdrawing thier players before the WC can be however.

To be fair, Welsh regions don't play their top players all that much in the Rabo, either. I know the rwc disrupted a lot, but before Christmas, I think Rhys Priestland had only played in 2. That's a bit crazy really.

manofgwent wrote: How many of the top Irish players play more than a handful of games in the Rabies?

Can't speak for other Provinces but Ferris, Trimble, Wallace, Best and Court play every game they can for Ulster there is no rotation.

The only games they miss are through injury, internationals + a couple of required rest games.

I see the myth of the Pro 12 rotating when the English and French don't is alive and well even in Wales.
One day someone will back this up with facts - I suspect I will be waiting a long time as the French and English rotate as well.

I think that th ebiggest drawbacks to the pro 12 are

1) Not enough support for it in Wales, blame regions or whatever else but this was targeted as a big market for the pro 12 and its not delivering, maybe creating a downward spiral,

regions can't attract support = can't afford to keep top players = no top players region don't do well in league, and makes it harder to attract supporters = whole league affected

2) TV and sponsorship money, the French and English leagues get far far more for this, if we got similar the regions would have better chance of keeping players, but SKY are never going to be intrested as they have the Prem.

TV money is goint to be hard to increase without sky, RTE, BBC (ni, alba) SC4, and whatever channel if there is one that covers Italy are never going to match Sky between them. I really don't know how to improve on this.

Kingshu wrote:
2) TV and sponsorship money, the French and English leagues get far far more for this, if we got similar the regions would have better chance of keeping players, but SKY are never going to be intrested as they have the Prem.

TV money is goint to be hard to increase without sky, RTE, BBC (ni, alba) SC4, and whatever channel if there is one that covers Italy are never going to match Sky between them. I really don't know how to improve on this.

That depends. Its a complex business. For instance last year the Irish government were threatening to making HEC rugby free to air again in Ireland. The IRFU came out strongly against this because they do well out of sky in terms of the percentage of money sky pay out. This is because sky know that if they can keep the coverage of the HEC in Ireland they'll more than make up for the money paid out in terms of the numbers of Irish people paying for sky sports.

So, my point is that in small markets like Ireland the IRFU/Sky can take advantage of peoples enthusiasm. The more the league grows and the more fans buy into it the more they'll spend to watch it and companies like Sky/ESPN will come sniffing around, seeing an opportunity to make money. Add in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland to that mix and you can see why sky would be very interested. A little further down the line you have the likes of Italy with a market of 50+ million people and wealthy TV companies.

It all depends on attitudes changing first though. Attitudes have changed in Ireland especially in the last 3 or 4 seasons. The league is professionally run these days and they are trying to change perceptions of it.

While I agree with some of that profitus, I can't see Sky ever wanting the Pro 12, as it conflicts with the prem.

Pro12 market circa 18 million
Prem market 50 million

You'd need a very high percentage of people taking up sky compared to England to make it more marketable to sky.

Add in that to cover all the games you'd need agreements/broadcast rights with 3 different countries, makes it tricky.

I'd forgot about ESPN, If an argreement can be reached about showing games in UK and Ireland, I'd be happy.
(I'd hope that the money would be split evenly between the 4 unions, and Italy's tv deal would be split 4 ways also).

On the resting players thing I say so what, doesn't make it bad.

Next season who would complain about seeing this team.

01 Marcus Horan
02 Jerry Flannery
03 Stephen Archer
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan
05 Mick O'Driscoll
06 Denis Leamy
07 Niall Ronan
08 Paddy Butler
09 Tomas O'Leary
10 Ian Keatley
11 Luke O'Dea
12 James Downey
13 Danny Barnes
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

Thats an entirely second string team from Munster. We rotate because we can. Thats just an example - Leinster can do the same Shane Horgan, Fergus McFadden, Sean Cronin, Kevin McLaughlin, Isaac Boss are all international backup players.

I think if Wales and Scotland can add in two/three more teams and an extra Italian and Irish team then you could have a two tiered competition with relegation and promotion with a cup competition as well, possibly including English teams.

Scotland could keep current two teams and have them similar to Munster and Leinster, add in a Borders team to the league as an equivalent to Ulster and have a development side in the North similar to Connacht. Then you could have a London Scottish side based in England that could focus solely on the players who are Scottish qualified from the Scottish exiles set up and elsewhere around the world.

The Welsh could do the same with London Welsh and bring back the Celtic warriors, the Irish could create another side and have them similar to Connacht.Not sure about Italians but I think there are enough players to have a third.

This would also increase the standard of the u20s teams because they will have exposure to better players and also the extra players brought in from the southern hemisphere would improve them.

I would say that they should try to get these clubs privately funded and therefore attract big players from the Southern hemisphere and consequently attract more fans and a bigger TV deal from SKY or something of that ilk to be the sole English speaking TV broadcaster but keep the regional language channels such as ALBA and s4C and try to get radio broadcasting.

Make HC qualification on your position in the table and also Amlin qualification the next few teams. Make a cup competition with the winner going straight into the HC as a top seeded team regardless of their league meaning that you'd get a structure like this

League 1- Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Border Reivers, Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets, Treviso (coverage by Sky/Espn)

League 2- Connacht, 5th Irish team, Dragons, Celtic Warriors, London Welsh, Aironi, 3rd Italian team, London Scottish, 5th Scottish team, And a team made up of players from Eastern Europe(Romania, Russia, Georgia etc.)

Add in a cup competition with coverage on terrestrial TV, possibly with the addition of English clubs.

123456789 wrote:I think if Wales and Scotland can add in two/three more teams and an extra Italian and Irish team then you could have a two tiered competition with relegation and promotion with a cup competition as well, possibly including English teams.

Scotland could keep current two teams and have them similar to Munster and Leinster, add in a Borders team to the league as an equivalent to Ulster and have a development side in the North similar to Connacht. Then you could have a London Scottish side based in England that could focus solely on the players who are Scottish qualified from the Scottish exiles set up and elsewhere around the world.

The Welsh could do the same with London Welsh and bring back the Celtic warriors, the Irish could create another side and have them similar to Connacht.Not sure about Italians but I think there are enough players to have a third.


I would say that they should try to get these clubs privately funded and therefore attract big players from the Southern hemisphere and consequently attract more fans and a bigger TV deal from SKY or something of that ilk to be the sole English speaking TV broadcaster but keep the regional language channels such as ALBA and s4C and try to get radio broadcasting.

Make HC qualification on your position in the table and also Amlin qualification the next few teams. Make a cup competition with the winner going straight into the HC as a top seeded team regardless of their league meaning that you'd get a structure like this

League 1- Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Border Reivers, Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets, Treviso (coverage by Sky/Espn)

League 2- Connacht, 5th Irish team, Dragons, Celtic Warriors, London Welsh, Aironi, 3rd Italian team, London Scottish, 5th Scottish team, And a team made up of players from Eastern Europe(Romania, Russia, Georgia etc.)

Add in a cup competition with coverage on terrestrial TV, possibly with the addition of English clubs.

Never gonna happen.

Ireland and Wales struggle to fund four competitive teams, and you want more? The Welsh teams are skint and most are struggling to attract supporters. Not a great time to be plowing non-existent money into more teams. And there will never be a fifth Irish team. In fact the IRFU would like to axe Connacht.

In these threads it always seems like the Irish really like the league a lot, and the Welsh are unhappy with it. But I don't think this has much to do with the league structure itself. It's an extension of the fact that the Irish really like their provinces a lot, and the Welsh are unhappy with regionalization.

I don't mind the regions. The league just doesn't interest me to be honest. Because some of the rugby played by the Welsh regions is absolutely abysmal and I don't really care about playing teams like Edinburgh or Connaught. Id much rather be watching the HC or a Welsh premiership game

Not yet but give it 5-10 years and it is highly possible and if they were privately funded

Where would the money come from exactly?

123456789 wrote:I think if Wales and Scotland can add in two/three more teams and an extra Italian and Irish team then you could have a two tiered competition with relegation and promotion with a cup competition as well, possibly including English teams.

Scotland could keep current two teams and have them similar to Munster and Leinster, add in a Borders team to the league as an equivalent to Ulster and have a development side in the North similar to Connacht. Then you could have a London Scottish side based in England that could focus solely on the players who are Scottish qualified from the Scottish exiles set up and elsewhere around the world.

The Welsh could do the same with London Welsh and bring back the Celtic warriors, the Irish could create another side and have them similar to Connacht.Not sure about Italians but I think there are enough players to have a third.

This would also increase the standard of the u20s teams because they will have exposure to better players and also the extra players brought in from the southern hemisphere would improve them.

I would say that they should try to get these clubs privately funded and therefore attract big players from the Southern hemisphere and consequently attract more fans and a bigger TV deal from SKY or something of that ilk to be the sole English speaking TV broadcaster but keep the regional language channels such as ALBA and s4C and try to get radio broadcasting.

Make HC qualification on your position in the table and also Amlin qualification the next few teams. Make a cup competition with the winner going straight into the HC as a top seeded team regardless of their league meaning that you'd get a structure like this

League 1- Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Border Reivers, Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets, Treviso (coverage by Sky/Espn)

League 2- Connacht, 5th Irish team, Dragons, Celtic Warriors, London Welsh, Aironi, 3rd Italian team, London Scottish, 5th Scottish team, And a team made up of players from Eastern Europe(Romania, Russia, Georgia etc.)

Add in a cup competition with coverage on terrestrial TV, possibly with the addition of English clubs.

Wow.

gowales wrote:Where would the money come from exactly?

Back of the sofa?

Businessmen, if it is a big competition people will get involved, people could own shares. Rugby is the biggest sport in Wales think of the amount of people who invest in football in England, Scottish football is in a horrible position (not even the old firm can cope), Italy could be funded by clubs in Italy, and an eastern european team would be easy to fund across that many nations. Add in the added TV money and the larger attendances.

One other thing. One criticism of the league regards the lack of relegation and European places guaranteed. A way around that would be to offer some incentives for finishing in the top 6, 7 or 8 etc. Something like prize money.

The Italian rugby union would be against that of course because they're more likely to have a team near the bottom so what you could do to please everyone as follows. Lets say that finishing in the top 8 is rewarded, bottom 4 punished. Each union should submit the figure which they are going to fund their teams for the following season. Which ever one of their teams finish in the bottom 4 gets 10-20% less money from the union. This way each union doesn't lose out. Another way of putting it is the teams who finish in the top 8 get a bonus. That would make the bottom of the league more competitive.

red_stag wrote:On the resting players thing I say so what, doesn't make it bad.

Next season who would complain about seeing this team.

01 Marcus Horan
02 Jerry Flannery
03 Stephen Archer
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan
05 Mick O'Driscoll
06 Denis Leamy
07 Niall Ronan
08 Paddy Butler
09 Tomas O'Leary
10 Ian Keatley
11 Luke O'Dea
12 James Downey
13 Danny Barnes
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

Thats an entirely second string team from Munster. We rotate because we can. Thats just an example - Leinster can do the same Shane Horgan, Fergus McFadden, Sean Cronin, Kevin McLaughlin, Isaac Boss are all international backup players.

Good point.

Well there lies the problem Leinster and Munster can. The rest of the teams in the league cannot.

gowales wrote:Well there lies the problem Leinster and Munster can. The rest of the teams in the league cannot.

Lave a look at the Leinster team that beat Toulouse in France almost 6 years ago. Only 2 of the forwards would make the Leinster team now. (I mean if they were the same age as they were 6 years ago) Most of the subs wouldn't make it either.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=lineups&fixid=9069

Our squad was paper thin. Only in the last 2 seasons have we had the quality in depth to successfully rotate.

Also we have the coach who is a master of rotation. Stunning ability to blend a team to keep all players fresh and have the right mix of youth and experience for each game.

Cheika used to fling all the kids out away to Glasgow or the Dragons and we usually lost. (Not knocking Cheiks btw, he did a huge amount for Leinster, Put some steel in the pack for a start)

gowales wrote:Well there lies the problem Leinster and Munster can. The rest of the teams in the league cannot.

No no you have it wrong, we all rotate the English tell us so - it must be true

As to some of the fantasy land stuff further up - a 5th irish team, a 4th or 5th ! Scottish team - none of that is going to happen.

Far more likely is a 3rd and 4th Italian side.

Is that a problem gowales?

Munster and Leinster etc will rarely ever send out a complete 2nd string side. It will often be half and half.

The starting Munster team will have guys like Wian Du Preez, Doug Howlett, Casey Laulala, BJ Botha - our foreigners who don't play internationally and don't need all that much rest.